REVscene - Vancouver Automotive Forum


Welcome to the REVscene Automotive Forum forums.

Registration is Free!You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today! The banners on the left side and below do not show for registered users!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.


Go Back   REVscene Automotive Forum > Automotive Chat > Vancouver Auto Chat

Vancouver Auto Chat 2016 VAC Community Head Moderator: Raid3n

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 04-28-2009, 01:01 PM   #1
I WANT MY 10 YEARS BACK FROM RS.net!
 
Timpo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: ...
Posts: 20,300
Thanked 4,525 Times in 1,357 Posts
Failed 4,505 Times in 971 Posts
Cool Gordon Murrary says McLaren F1's benchmark was NSX



To this day, the NSX is still a car that is near and dear to my heart. I put 75,000 Km on my NSX over the course of six or seven years.


It's very difficult to discuss the NSX using current values and sensibilities. When the NSX debuted, the word "supercar" was still a relatively new idea in Europe. There are some who would say the Lamborghini Miura from the late 1960s was the first supercar. However, the truth is the explosion of modern supercars really started at the end of the 1980s.



At the end of the 80s was the time when McLaren Cars was conceiving the idea for the McLaren F1. To that end, I was concentrating on coming up with what I wanted in a road car.


To my thinking, the ideal car is one in which I could get in the driver's seat and be out for a drive in downtown London, and then want to continue straight on to southern France. A car that you can trust, with functional air conditioning, and retains daily drivability. No offset pedals allowed. No high dashboards restricting your view either. Having a low roof hitting your head every time you go over a bump in the name of aerodynamics and styling is out of the question. It is essential that a supercar be a pleasure to drive, and anything detracting from that must be excised.



I started by driving the cars known then as "supercars." The Porsche 959, Bugatti EB110, Ferrari F40, Jaguar XJ220. Unfortunately, none of these fit the pattern of the supercar we were trying to build. What we wanted was a relatively compact, usable driver's car. The Porsche 911 had the usability, but with the engine packed in the back, it had a weakness in its handling stability.


During this time, we were able to visit with Ayrton Senna (the late F1 Champion) and Honda's Tochigi Research Center. The visit related to the fact that at the time, McLaren's F1 Grand Prix cars were using Honda engines.


Coincidentally, I spotted an NSX prototype parked near the course. I also learned at the time that Ayrton was assisting in the development of the NSX. And that Honda rear mid-engined sports car--the NSX--was the friendly supercar that we had been looking for. This car had perfectly functional air conditioning, a reasonably roomy trunk, and of course, it was a Honda, with the high levels of quality and reliability that implies.
Then I had the opportunity to drive it. Along with Ron Dennis (President, McLaren Cars) and Mansour Ojjeh (Tag McLaren Group Representative), we drove the prototype on the Tochigi Research Center test course. I remember being moved, thinking, "It is remarkable how our vision comes through in this car."


Of course as you know, the engine has only six cylinders; however, the NSX's very rigid chassis is excellent and would easily be capable of handling more power. Although it's true I had thought it would have been better to put a larger engine, the moment I drove the "little" NSX, all the benchmark cars--Ferrari, Porsche, Lamborghini--I had been using as references in the development of my car vanished from my mind. Of course the car we would create, the McLaren F1, needed to be faster than the NSX, but the NSX's ride quality and handling would become our new design target.
When working on the development of a new car for years, it's easy to be caught in certain pitfalls. When you drive the car under development for testing every day (in truth, I was responsible for two-thirds of the testing for the McLaren F1), in that time, you can unknowingly convince yourself you are making progress when in fact you are not. For example, it's human nature that at the end of a long day you may want to think that your efforts to reduce low speed harshness are working better than they are. It is at times like this when you need a car to compare with. In those situations, the NSX time and again showed us the path in the areas of ride quality and handling, and also helped us recognize when we weren't making as much progress as we thought.



In my opinion, the NSX's most special quality has long been overlooked.
That could be summarized with the words, "The NSX's suspension is amazing."


Both the body and suspension are aluminum, and it probably couldn't be helped that journalists' attention has been focused on praising the aluminum body. However, the suspension is the much more impressive use of aluminum.


It's lightweight, tough, yet compliant. Also contributing to the refined NSX's handling and ride quality are 17 inch wheels and tires that are not overly large. The NSX's suspension is truly an ingenious system, and back then I imagined the development costs must have been enormous. To achieve that unparalleled accuracy and superior ride quality, longitudinal wheel movement is allowed via the use of a compliance pivot. (※)


(※) Compliance refers to when you travel over a bump, the tire experiences a longitudinal force, which the tire and suspension must move with and absorb the shock. The pivot couples the upper and lower arms. It is connected to the arms via ball joints so that they move as a unit. When encountering input, the pivot rotates, keeping alignment changes to near zero while retaining compliance (see diagram). The inspiration obtained from this NSX suspension system would later influence the development of the McLaren F1's suspension.


The NSX was also the first car to use DBW (Drive By Wire). It felt very pleasing. DBW is when instead of using a mechanical cable, an electronic signal is used to communicate throttle position. It achieved a very natural, linear feeling throttle, and I can now hide my embarrassment and confess that I copied the idea during the development of the McLaren F1 (laughs).
The low-slung NSX's driver's seat position also provided just the right head clearance and an amazing field of view. The NSX development team moved the air conditioning unit away from the dash and deep into the NSX's nose in order to obtain more space. That air conditioning unit is an excellent one, and normally, you don't notice whether it's on or not.


On the day I bought the NSX, I pressed the "Auto" button and since then until selling it, I never had to touch it. It was that perfect. Ah, I also remember the audio system as being very good.


However, the media wrote up the aluminum body, and the many merits and advantages I perceived in the NSX have largely been overlooked.



In my opinion, the NSX, while being such a great sports car, had two large flaws in it's marketing. First, at the time, the public was not ready to accept a Japanese car that was this expensive. The second is that for supercar customers, the power figures were not quite high enough. Of course, the prototype's engine was not bad, and soon the VTEC engine was added. Whenever I hear that VTEC sound it's amazing. I am repeating myself, but the NSX's excellent chassis would have been capable of handling much more power.


With just a slightly lower price, or possibly selling it with a different brand name and a different badge, or perhaps endowing it with atouch flashier and more aggressive styling and additional power, there is no question the NSX would have reigned as a cult star of the supercars.


However, during that time, in Honda's philosophy there was a resistance to large engines with many cylinders. I am not certain, but probably at the time, the voluntary restraint on power limits was a factor. Being a fan of Honda engines, I later went to Honda's Tochigi Research Center on two occasions and requested that they consider building for the McLaren F1 a 4.5 liter V10 or V12. I asked, I tried to persuade them, but in the end could not convince them to do it, and the McLaren F1 ended up equipped with a BMW engine.


The NSX's development costs must have been enormous. Everything on it is unique. The chassis, powertrain, even the air conditioning are peerless. That aluminum body was very expensive. The numerous hurdles overcome by the NSX to reach production in areas such as spot welding, corrosion, and repairability make it a monumental work in automotive history. The philosophy of creating a car for human beings is apparent throughout. If it were me, I probably would not have obsessed over the aluminum and would have settled for a steel structure with aluminum panels to try to achieve a similar weight reduction. But what I really want to emphasize is the suspension. It is a a groundbreaking use of aluminum.




There are a few things that could be improved on the NSX. First, the tires are too soft. Over the seven years I ran mine, I went through 14 sets of tires. After changing over to harder-compound Michelins in the rear, my tire life increased. As a result, rear grip was decreased slightly, but driving became more fun. The NSX's traction control and ABS are first generation systems and as a result are somewhat slow-acting. I also missed having more storage space in the interior. However, such things hardly seem significant in a sports car of this caliber.


The NSX is a landmark car. It awoke not only a lazy Ferrari, but Porsche as well and sparked advances in usability, ergonomics, and handling. It may not have achieved success from a marketing standpoint, but many influential and important people have owned them. The NSX is also unusual in that it continued to be on sale for so long. If I were to looking for that type of car now, I would--without a doubt--gladly own an NSX
Advertisement
Timpo is offline   Reply With Quote
This post thanked by:
Old 04-28-2009, 02:04 PM   #2
My homepage has been set to RS
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 2,370
Thanked 1,874 Times in 604 Posts
Failed 217 Times in 88 Posts
that was a great read. When a car designer of Gordon Murray's status, sings praise about a competitor's car, you know it is that good.
__________________
16 GT3 RS
11 R8 V10
17 Long beach blue M2
86 944 Turbo with 340rwhp Lindsay Racing kit
15 991 PTS GT3
18 VW Golf R
Z3guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2009, 02:17 PM   #3
What hasn't Killed me, has made me more tolerant of RS!
 
JDM4DR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: 604
Posts: 165
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Failed 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanks for that!
Good read... NSX FTW!
JDM4DR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2009, 02:23 PM   #4
RS.net Licensed Sponsor
 
DHP 1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 336
Thanked 68 Times in 30 Posts
Failed 14 Times in 4 Posts
great read, definitely one of my favorite car


thx
__________________
Drivehard Performance


www.drivehard.ca
140/150 11351 Bridgeport Road
Richmond, BC
604-270-2494



Official dealers of : Volk Racing, Vossen wheels, Yokohama, Gram lights, KICS Project, Status Racing Seat, AMS tuning, KW Automotive, Work Wheel, VMR Wheel, Macht Schnell, Tein, Defi, Vishnu Tuning, HRE Wheel, MXP Exhaust, Vorsteiner, Varis, Arqray, Techart, Champion, Iforged, NEEZ Wheel
DHP 1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2009, 02:33 PM   #5
Ricer Mod
 
Berzerker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Smithers
Posts: 7,008
Thanked 5,276 Times in 1,501 Posts
Failed 214 Times in 74 Posts
Awesome read.... and I have said for years that the NSX with more power would be unstoppable as a Inexpensive supercar. Lovefab has some great turbo kits for them that do wonders for the NSX

Berz out.
__________________
President of RS Beat Down Crew
Berzerker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2009, 03:00 PM   #6
Diagonally parked in a parallel universe
 
TheStig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 1,497
Thanked 293 Times in 76 Posts
Failed 4 Times in 4 Posts
Very good read, thanks for posting it.
__________________
Some say I never blink, and that I roam around the woods at night foraging for wolves.

All we know is, I'm called The Stig
TheStig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2009, 03:45 PM   #7
Banned (ABWS)
 
orange7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: MacLeod
Posts: 7,298
Thanked 542 Times in 289 Posts
Failed 1,639 Times in 418 Posts
wow.. this summary pretty much explains why the nsx didn't sell as well
orange7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2009, 03:49 PM   #8
I only answer to my username, my real name is Irrelevant!
 
StylinRed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: CELICAland
Posts: 25,666
Thanked 10,387 Times in 3,913 Posts
Failed 1,390 Times in 625 Posts
he must have meant it as a joke considering how much the f1 pawns the nsx :P
StylinRed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2009, 04:13 PM   #9
RTS
My homepage has been set to RS
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 2,385
Thanked 48 Times in 23 Posts
Failed 143 Times in 26 Posts
An old boss let me borrow his for a few days. Amazing drive. Wouldn't mind picking one someday.
RTS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2009, 04:26 PM   #10
RS.net, helping ugly ppl have sex since 2001
 
shenmecar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 8,858
Thanked 2,420 Times in 669 Posts
Failed 530 Times in 136 Posts
NSX FTW! What other japanese car can blend in with european exotics?
shenmecar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2009, 04:53 PM   #11
14 dolla balla aint got nothing on me!
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 675
Thanked 1,859 Times in 254 Posts
Failed 69 Times in 11 Posts
Loved the NSX and the McLaren F1, can you imagine what would happen if McLaren and Honda teamed up to make another supercar? I think it was one of Honda's biggest mistake not to help McLaren make their V12 and also let NSX rot without updating it earlier and more frequently...
JoshuaWong is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2009, 05:08 PM   #12
I WANT MY 10 YEARS BACK FROM RS.net!
 
Timpo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: ...
Posts: 20,300
Thanked 4,525 Times in 1,357 Posts
Failed 4,505 Times in 971 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshuaWong View Post
Loved the NSX and the McLaren F1, can you imagine what would happen if McLaren and Honda teamed up to make another supercar? I think it was one of Honda's biggest mistake not to help McLaren make their V12 and also let NSX rot without updating it earlier and more frequently...


I have seen in different article how McLaren was trying to celebrate the victories that they achieved with Senna and Honda by developing the McLaren F1.
For that reason, it was more natual to use Honda's V12 or V10 for the McLaren F1. But Honda didn't want to get involved in the development of the McLaren F1 so that's why they had to compromise and put the BMW engine instead, which was significantly heavier than what Murray originally wanted.
Timpo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2009, 06:18 PM   #13
Banned (ABWS)
 
orange7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: MacLeod
Posts: 7,298
Thanked 542 Times in 289 Posts
Failed 1,639 Times in 418 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by shenmecar View Post
NSX FTW! What other japanese car can blend in with european exotics?
R35, modded rx7, and modded supra
orange7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2009, 07:09 PM   #14
My dinner reheated before my turbo spooled
 
Ludepower's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 1,738
Thanked 939 Times in 308 Posts
Failed 206 Times in 75 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by orange7 View Post
R35, modded rx7, and modded supra
Modded as in adding bodykits? LOL...that means the original design was a failure.


R35 is a bloated car...just take a look a the size difference....
Ludepower is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2009, 07:15 PM   #15
I WANT MY 10 YEARS BACK FROM RS.net!
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 20,400
Thanked 7,456 Times in 1,441 Posts
Failed 2,380 Times in 472 Posts
even though he's right, but it still sound bias to me.
asian_XL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2009, 07:29 PM   #16
To me, there is the Internet and there is RS
 
penner2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Delta
Posts: 15,911
Thanked 765 Times in 228 Posts
Failed 354 Times in 58 Posts
I dont think the NSX was the benchmark.. I think what he was trying to say is that he liked the idea of the NSX and used some ideas in designing the F1..

That would be like saying a 1950's VW Bug is the benchmark for the 997 Porsche 911.. lol
__________________
The harder I lift and the more I eat, the better my genetics seem to get.
penner2k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2009, 07:45 PM   #17
Banned (ABWS)
 
orange7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: MacLeod
Posts: 7,298
Thanked 542 Times in 289 Posts
Failed 1,639 Times in 418 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludepower View Post
Modded as in adding bodykits? LOL...that means the original design was a failure.


R35 is a bloated car...just take a look a the size difference....


gtr's design looks good enough to go against euro exotics to me. Don't hate on it cause of the badge.
orange7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2009, 08:35 PM   #18
Banned (BBM)
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: No
Posts: 727
Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts
Failed 78 Times in 14 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by orange7 View Post


gtr's design looks good enough to go against euro exotics to me. Don't hate on it cause of the badge.
just look at the lines of the 599, it flows so much better than the r35.....r35 is just like a box.....
Lude S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2009, 08:55 AM   #19
I *heart* Revscene.net very Muchie
 
Mancini's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 3,922
Thanked 304 Times in 155 Posts
Failed 116 Times in 29 Posts
Great read.

I'm sure that there are still quite a few examples of low mileage NSX's that are sitting in the original owners garage and used as their weekend cruiser...and as a used car they would be a reasonably affordable purchase.
Mancini is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2009, 11:28 AM   #20
SFICC-03*
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: richmond
Posts: 8,410
Thanked 2,875 Times in 1,157 Posts
Failed 153 Times in 76 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by orange7 View Post
R35, modded rx7, and modded supra
none of those 3 cars look like they're worth 100k, they all look like mid range sports cars imo.

nsx styling wise is one of the nicest cars of the 90s. super low stance, flip up lights, beautiful profile, its a tiny little thing.

look a these 2 cars side by side. one looks like a family car the other looks like a supercar. can you guess which is which?

unit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2009, 11:35 AM   #21
My homepage has been set to RS
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 2,370
Thanked 1,874 Times in 604 Posts
Failed 217 Times in 88 Posts
^ agree with your comments, however, the beauty of the GTR is under the skin......how many cars under $100K can beat a 911 turbo at it's own game.
__________________
16 GT3 RS
11 R8 V10
17 Long beach blue M2
86 944 Turbo with 340rwhp Lindsay Racing kit
15 991 PTS GT3
18 VW Golf R
Z3guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2009, 12:03 PM   #22
Banned By Establishment
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Shaugnessy
Posts: 2,610
Thanked 481 Times in 168 Posts
Failed 730 Times in 91 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by shenmecar View Post
NSX FTW! What other japanese car can blend in with european exotics?

Mister two
BNR32_Coupe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2009, 12:11 PM   #23
Rs has made me the man i am today!
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 3,196
Thanked 35 Times in 24 Posts
Failed 7 Times in 4 Posts
lol @ GTR being comparable to European exotics
ienhz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2009, 12:15 PM   #24
My dinner reheated before my turbo spooled
 
Ludepower's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 1,738
Thanked 939 Times in 308 Posts
Failed 206 Times in 75 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by orange7 View Post

gtr's design looks good enough to go against euro exotics to me. Don't hate on it cause of the badge.
I love how you show the pic of the Ferrari and not the GTR...and tell us they both look similar....

Dont get me wrong...GTR is a an amazing car...but the general consensus about the design is Bland and Bloated.


Mazda Furai
Ludepower is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 06:29 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
SEO by vBSEO ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.
Revscene.net cannot be held accountable for the actions of its members nor does the opinions of the members represent that of Revscene.net