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10-01-2011, 10:18 AM
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#151 | | Ready to be Man handled by RS!
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Originally Posted by MindBomber  It's no more of a stretch to say, that based on a customer forcing a business to incur a significant financial loss by backing out of a deal after a reasonable time frame to do so had expired, the salesperson should feel the business is entitled to fair compensation. I see nothing morally wrong in attempting to retain a deposit in the circumstances stated by BlackZ if it is done so legally, through a channel like small claims court. If I had a dealer hold a car for two weeks, then I chose to back out of the deal, I would leave the deposit in recognition of the costs they incurred doing so. Maybe my comment is disturbing too, and my family for instilling those morals in me. | I will say this first in case you forget, could you please post the link of the forum that you were talking about?
I find his comment disturbing exactly because he wants to confuse these different things together. Perhaps you are potentially a victim to this false logic.
Before I go on, take a few seconds and think about the following situation: You bought a $10 lottery ticket, the advertisement says "40 million", two days later, the results comes out you are not the that lucky, you lose the $10. Now is it moral to sue the lottery company to claim your $10 because you did not get the 40 million?
Purchase Agreement does not define the obligation to buy. It express the intent to buy and sell on both parties. Unless you have a legally effective nonrefundable deposit agreement, the dealership is bearing the cost. Why do you want to bear that cost in the R8 case? It is exactly because your got the chance to win a much more lucrative profit and commission. By not signing a nonrefundable deposit contract, you are exactly like buying a lottery ticket. You are betting on the customers' decision. If the deal did not through and you want to keep that deposit, again, without a nonrefundable deposit contract, your action is morally equivalent to suing the lottery company for not winning.
Some people just try to bomb others' mind by trying to confuse legal matters with moral matters. Also they are trying to confuse ex ante expectation with ex post result to convince you that it is morally acceptable. My family is also in business and we face this kind of situation everyday, sometimes we pay a cost to just get a chance to bid on a project. It is your cost in order to have the chance to get the business. My family's moral principle is: evaluate the cost and benefit beforehand, know your responsibility, do not shift your own cost to others afterwards. Especially, do not do it by committing crime.
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10-01-2011, 11:04 AM
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#152 | | Ready to be Man handled by RS!
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Originally Posted by boostfever knowing the douchebags at regency nissan/infiniti, this doesn't surprise me a bit. | Would you mind sharing more stories about them? You can pm me if you feel it inappropriate to say it here.
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10-01-2011, 11:37 AM
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#153 | | I don't like cheese but I love milk!
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although I am all in favor of screwing with shady dealerships...I don't think the criminal forgery charge will ever hold...
They handwritten an extra note on your contract...the best you can argue is the term is therefore invalid and not legally binding.
Have you contacted the police? you can't sue someone for a criminal act yourself.... the crown needs to be involved.
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10-01-2011, 11:48 AM
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#154 | | JDMEK9Mod | DogWhisperer
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i actually have a similar story to share regarding OpenRoad Toyota at the automall. busy right now though, stay tuned.
edit: story has been posted below!
Last edited by spoon.ek9; 10-02-2011 at 11:18 AM.
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10-01-2011, 12:05 PM
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#155 | | I contribute to threads in the offtopic forum
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you can forget about this thread blowing up. You already got your money back, and quite honestly the the bitching back and forth that is going on in this thread is gonna lose alot of people's interests.
when a thread blows up, its because there is no resolution as of yet, and the internets support you in getting the company to do whats right. In this case they already gave you back your money, so all that is left is to wait for what kind of disciplinary action is going to be taken (probably none) - and not an exciting situation for forum goers.
However, what you are doing is great for locals who were inquiring about purchasing a vehicle from them (good on you for that).
If you really want to make this thread huge, you need to post pictures, the convo, everything that will gain peoples interests.
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10-01-2011, 01:33 PM
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#156 | | Wanna have a threesome?
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Originally Posted by legalaction
Purchase Agreement does not define the obligation to buy. It express the intent to buy and sell on both parties. Unless you have a legally effective nonrefundable deposit agreement, the dealership is bearing the cost. Why do you want to bear that cost in the R8 case? It is exactly because your got the chance to win a much more lucrative profit and commission. By not signing a nonrefundable deposit contract, you are exactly like buying a lottery ticket. You are betting on the customers' decision. If the deal did not through and you want to keep that deposit, again, without a nonrefundable deposit contract, your action is morally equivalent to suing the lottery company for not winning.
Some people just try to bomb others' mind by trying to confuse legal matters with moral matters. Also they are trying to confuse ex ante expectation with ex post result to convince you that it is morally acceptable. My family is also in business and we face this kind of situation everyday, sometimes we pay a cost to just get a chance to bid on a project. It is your cost in order to have the chance to get the business. My family's moral principle is: evaluate the cost and benefit beforehand, know your responsibility, do not shift your own cost to others afterwards. Especially, do not do it by committing crime.
| I removed the link from the aforementioned forum, as the entire intent of this thread has changed.
Purchasing a lottery ticket or making a financial investment in exchange for the opportunity to place a bid on a project are different stages of a business agreement, at a car dealership this would be equivalent to the cost of showing customers cars before any agreement to purchase is reached.
Holding a car with the value of $200k for two weeks after a agreement to purchase with a refundable deposit is signed, then to unexpectedly have the buyer cancel the purchase causes the dealership to incur a unreasonable financial loss. The dealership could then proceed to file a case against the former buyer in small claims court, arguing that a reasonable time frame to have the deal cancelled had expired and they should therefore be compensated. My business successfully sued a prospective client for more than a deposit in small claims court, because they backed out of a business deal at an extremely late stage causing us to incur a loss.
If a buyer were to back out of a car deal after a few days then those are entirely different circumstances.
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10-01-2011, 04:04 PM
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#157 | | Need my Daily Fix of RS
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Been shopping for a new minivan recently and also was very confused about this deposit thing... Every dealership I've delt with required me to put a deposit before negotiation with the business manager... At one point I had 3000 dollars deposited between Toyota, Honda, and Nissan before I decided who had the best deal and gave the biggest discount over mrsp and who would throw in the most free stuff. At the end I chose Honda , and I got back my 2 deposits from Toyota and Nissan without a problem. Posted via RS Mobile | |
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10-01-2011, 08:27 PM
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#158 | | Ready to be Man handled by RS!
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Originally Posted by MindBomber I removed the link from the aforementioned forum, as the entire intent of this thread has changed.
Purchasing a lottery ticket or making a financial investment in exchange for the opportunity to place a bid on a project are different stages of a business agreement, at a car dealership this would be equivalent to the cost of showing customers cars before any agreement to purchase is reached.
Holding a car with the value of $200k for two weeks after a agreement to purchase with a refundable deposit is signed, then to unexpectedly have the buyer cancel the purchase causes the dealership to incur a unreasonable financial loss. The dealership could then proceed to file a case against the former buyer in small claims court, arguing that a reasonable time frame to have the deal cancelled had expired and they should therefore be compensated. My business successfully sued a prospective client for more than a deposit in small claims court, because they backed out of a business deal at an extremely late stage causing us to incur a loss.
If a buyer were to back out of a car deal after a few days then those are entirely different circumstances. | It is OK. My intention is still written in the title: " BEWARE", Some people in this industry do not mind going this low.
I do not know what kind of business you are doing and how "extremely late stage" is in your example. If it is written in a legal contract or there is a industry standard and regulation which is equivalent to a legal contract, you definitely have your right to claim your loss. However, my business involves non-standardized produced machinery project. Very like making a customized car. Even when your bid is successful, and your customer signs an agreement with you, before writing a contract explaining the technical details, rights and obligations, both parties can still back out. If the deal does not go through, both parties would incur loss, either in terms of time, or money, or other form of opportunity cost.
In the car purchasing case, if you signed a refundable deposit agreement, you agreed that the customer can back out and you will bear the cost. The benefit is that the customer let their guard down and make the decision faster. It is like driving a car without buying a car damage insurance, in case of an accident, you cannot expect ICBC pay for you. But the benefit is you pay less insurance fee each period.
I think we are both talking from our own personal experience and justify ourselves by analogies in previous posts, that is why I think taking about moral matters in cases like this is empty and confusing. But in this industry, there are standards. The R8 case is not my case. But you do not have the right to claim your loss if you signed a refundable deposit agreement. You can refer to the link in the first post and go to VSA website to see what the industry standard says on auto transaction deposits. Although I can not agree with you, I respect you for being objective. Now I want to end this discussion of the R8 case.
Last edited by legalaction; 10-01-2011 at 09:06 PM.
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10-01-2011, 08:34 PM
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#159 | | Ready to be Man handled by RS!
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Originally Posted by Ferra although I am all in favor of screwing with shady dealerships...I don't think the criminal forgery charge will ever hold...
They handwritten an extra note on your contract...the best you can argue is the term is therefore invalid and not legally binding.
Have you contacted the police? you can't sue someone for a criminal act yourself.... the crown needs to be involved. | I will wait for the result of VSA's investigation first. I am a little pessimistic about what VSA can do. The dealership must have thought that the worst scenario would be that VSA forward the complaint and they just returned the deposit. Nothing happens. That makes them fear nothing. Like I said, if the result of VSA's investigation is not satisfactory, I will post the recorded conversation on the internet.
Last edited by legalaction; 10-01-2011 at 09:03 PM.
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10-01-2011, 08:43 PM
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#160 | | Ready to be Man handled by RS!
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Originally Posted by vafanculo you can forget about this thread blowing up. You already got your money back, and quite honestly the the bitching back and forth that is going on in this thread is gonna lose alot of people's interests.
when a thread blows up, its because there is no resolution as of yet, and the internets support you in getting the company to do whats right. In this case they already gave you back your money, so all that is left is to wait for what kind of disciplinary action is going to be taken (probably none) - and not an exciting situation for forum goers.
However, what you are doing is great for locals who were inquiring about purchasing a vehicle from them (good on you for that).
If you really want to make this thread huge, you need to post pictures, the convo, everything that will gain peoples interests. | I did not expect that this thread to blow up. My original intention is exactly to warn people how they are trying to control you and screw you. Losing even one perspective customer would cost more for them than taking my deposit. At least they have already lost one of my friends' business who is keen on buying a G37 when her current lease term ends. In fact, I cannot believe how stupid Rick Kingdon is. Or he just doesn't care. If I were the owner of Regency, I would fire him for these short-sighted actions. He is definitely not thinking about the owner's interest. Like people have said, Regency is not like before, they are now controlled by these goons and thugs, doing things worse than gangsters.
However, I will post the recorded conversation when I feel necessary. For those of you who are interested, just be patient.
Last edited by legalaction; 10-01-2011 at 09:11 PM.
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10-01-2011, 08:52 PM
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#161 | | Ready to be Man handled by RS!
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Originally Posted by hillmar Been shopping for a new minivan recently and also was very confused about this deposit thing... Every dealership I've delt with required me to put a deposit before negotiation with the business manager... At one point I had 3000 dollars deposited between Toyota, Honda, and Nissan before I decided who had the best deal and gave the biggest discount over mrsp and who would throw in the most free stuff. At the end I chose Honda , and I got back my 2 deposits from Toyota and Nissan without a problem. Posted via RS Mobile | That is how it is supposed to be working. Although the dealership I went to often do not require a deposit to negotiate. Deposits taken at any stage, before signing purchasing contract and transferring ownership, are refundable, unless a legally enforceable contract of nonrefundable deposit is signed. As people have said in previous posts, a deposit just shows "how serious you are".
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10-01-2011, 09:42 PM
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#162 | | Banned By Establishment
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I would have asked for a copy of the agreement before I left that same day.
If it was me, I would point out the fact that I did not sign or initial to acknowledge the non-refundable deposit.
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10-01-2011, 10:46 PM
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#163 | | Ready to be Man handled by RS!
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Originally Posted by racerman88 I would have asked for a copy of the agreement before I left that same day.
If it was me, I would point out the fact that I did not sign or initial to acknowledge the non-refundable deposit. | Next time maybe I would.
I said the exactly the same thing. But Rick Kingdon still refused to give me my money back. He said " it was a legally binding contract, VSA will acknowledge it. You can go anywhere you like. VSA or go to court, I am not giving you the deposit back." Can you believe it?
If you go to Regency Infiniti and put down a deposit, chances are that no matter what kind of agreement you sign and no matter you get your copy or not, they will make you have a hard time getting it back. Because even if VSA notifies them about your complaint, they can just give you back you money and there is no more punishment for them. When punishment is small and profit is high, people can risk committing crimes.
Do not even give your credit card number to them. They can charge you money and say you agreed on it verbally and refused giving the money back to you. Then you have to go through the same process as I have done. Just be careful.
In the recorded conversation with the salesman, when I asked that salesperson "when did you write down 'DEPOSIT NONREFUNDABLE?'", he first said "It is not written, it's been verbally told you" while in fact he did not. Then I said "you never told me the deposit was nonrefundable, right?", he refrained and said "no, I did not". I then asked, "then who wrote the "DEPOSIT NONREFUNDABLE " on the agreement?" He said " I...seriously have no idea".
Rick Kingdon says that the salesman tends to forget,as they have too many customers and too many deals to keep track of. I guess Rick Kingdon is also good at forgetting what is legal and what is not. I will wait for VSA's investigation on these people who have amnesia. It is very contagious in Regency Infiniti. Maybe they need a doctor instead of a lawyer.
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10-02-2011, 12:18 AM
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#164 | | THE CHAMPION OF CAPUA
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keep fighting the good fight =)
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10-02-2011, 12:44 AM
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#165 | | I contribute to threads in the offtopic forum
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I cannot believe that this is still going on...At first I thought, oh well, this guy will make a little noise and get back what's rightfully his. Now that I'm reading more and more, I am nothing but frustrated with these [SLEAZY business tactics. As someone mentioned before, dealerships don't make a living off withholding deposits...No, they certainly don't, but holding a deposit certainly helps pay the bills.
These guys not only have horrible business ethics, but clearly their customer service is abysmal. I wish they could foresee the consequences of their actions because I truly hope that their business becomes negatively affected by this situation.
As some of you know, I've been recently searching for an Infiniti vehicle myself and have been dealing with a particular salesman over the phone. He's been keeping me up to date by telling me which cars are in stock. The next time I hear from him, I will ensure that I tell him that my business will not be conducted with their dealership.
On a side note, AutoWest gave me A+ service. Not only did the salesman help me out and explained the difference between a variety of models, but he also felt the need to introduce me to his sales manager. At that point, the sales manager shook my hand and said "Parm, thank you for giving us the opportunity to earn your business."
THAT is quality customer service.
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10-02-2011, 12:54 AM
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#166 | | Zombie Mod
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^^^
Tell him you read it on Revscene, too. Assholio businesses need to know that pissing off customers are gonna have reverberating effects that will ripple for a long time, and cost them significant bucks. Revscene is a large forum, and their business name, plus a general keyword or two, will splash threads like this on the first page of Google results. I like how this thread starts off with BEWARE:. It's quite eye catching, and click-worthy 
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10-02-2011, 01:02 AM
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#167 | | I contribute to threads in the offtopic forum
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Originally Posted by Presto ^^^
Tell him you read it on Revscene, too. Assholio businesses need to know that pissing off customers are gonna have reverberating effects that will ripple for a long time, and cost them significant bucks. Revscene is a large forum, and their business name, plus a general keyword or two, will splash threads like this on the first page of Google results. I like how this thread starts off with BEWARE:. It's quite eye catching, and click-worthy | Exactly...The emphasis will definitely be that I am simply ONE of MANY who are in the same boat, who feel the same way and who refuse to give them business...And hopefully, many more to follow.
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10-02-2011, 08:55 AM
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#168 | | "Entertainment" mod.
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Originally Posted by parm104 I cannot believe that this is still going on...At first I thought, oh well, this guy will make a little noise and get back what's rightfully his. Now that I'm reading more and more, I am nothing but frustrated with these [SLEAZY business tactics. As someone mentioned before, dealerships don't make a living off withholding deposits...No, they certainly don't, but holding a deposit certainly helps pay the bills.
These guys not only have horrible business ethics, but clearly their customer service is abysmal. I wish they could foresee the consequences of their actions because I truly hope that their business becomes negatively affected by this situation.
As some of you know, I've been recently searching for an Infiniti vehicle myself and have been dealing with a particular salesman over the phone. He's been keeping me up to date by telling me which cars are in stock. The next time I hear from him, I will ensure that I tell him that my business will not be conducted with their dealership.
On a side note, AutoWest gave me A+ service. Not only did the salesman help me out and explained the difference between a variety of models, but he also felt the need to introduce me to his sales manager. At that point, the sales manager shook my hand and said "Parm, thank you for giving us the opportunity to earn your business."
THAT is quality customer service. | Just out of curiosity, who was the sales person who helped you? I believe I have a friend who works at AutoWest.
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10-02-2011, 10:12 AM
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#169 | | Ready to be Man handled by RS!
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Originally Posted by moonlightmaskman keep fighting the good fight =) | Thanks for the encouragement. Quote:
Originally Posted by Presto ^^^
Tell him you read it on Revscene, too. Assholio businesses need to know that pissing off customers are gonna have reverberating effects that will ripple for a long time, and cost them significant bucks. Revscene is a large forum, and their business name, plus a general keyword or two, will splash threads like this on the first page of Google results. I like how this thread starts off with BEWARE:. It's quite eye catching, and click-worthy | Thanks. I was not very confident in my English so it took me a while to think about what title I should use. I am glad that you like it. It is both reassuring and encouraging. Quote:
Originally Posted by parm104 I cannot believe that this is still going on...At first I thought, oh well, this guy will make a little noise and get back what's rightfully his. Now that I'm reading more and more, I am nothing but frustrated with these [SLEAZY business tactics. As someone mentioned before, dealerships don't make a living off withholding deposits...No, they certainly don't, but holding a deposit certainly helps pay the bills.
These guys not only have horrible business ethics, but clearly their customer service is abysmal. I wish they could foresee the consequences of their actions because I truly hope that their business becomes negatively affected by this situation.
As some of you know, I've been recently searching for an Infiniti vehicle myself and have been dealing with a particular salesman over the phone. He's been keeping me up to date by telling me which cars are in stock. The next time I hear from him, I will ensure that I tell him that my business will not be conducted with their dealership.
On a side note, AutoWest gave me A+ service. Not only did the salesman help me out and explained the difference between a variety of models, but he also felt the need to introduce me to his sales manager. At that point, the sales manager shook my hand and said "Parm, thank you for giving us the opportunity to earn your business."
THAT is quality customer service. | Thank you for that I have cited this in the first post. I hope more people in BC can read this and feel the same way. I did not cite the part that talked about another dealership, just to avoid misinterpretation. Hope you understand. Quote:
Originally Posted by parm104 Exactly...The emphasis will definitely be that I am simply ONE of MANY who are in the same boat, who feel the same way and who refuse to give them business...And hopefully, many more to follow. | Well said.
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10-02-2011, 10:14 AM
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#170 | | Ready to be Man handled by RS!
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Rick Kingdon's public webpage on LinkedIn: Rick Kingdon | LinkedIn
Notice how he claimed himself as "Reputation for integrity, teamwork, results achievement and exceptional people skills." And his specialty includes " marketing strategy development". Probably he has developed this forging-threatening strategy, he should get a patent for that. But let me ask you Mr. Kingdon, do you expect to win money by bluffing all the way on a poker table? Man, you should "Know your limit, play safe".
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10-02-2011, 11:15 AM
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#171 | | JDMEK9Mod | DogWhisperer
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alright, so here's what happened to an extended family member of mine at OpenRoad Toyota (Richmond Automall):
The extended family member (let's call him Tim), had just moved here from overseas and was looking to purchase a new vehicle for the family. He was considering the Rav4 and came upon an agreement with the sales person and signed some papers and left a deposit with the premise that it wasn't to purchase the vehicle just yet.
Fast-forward a week later and Tim has changed his mind. He ends up buying a new Caravan instead and informs the salesman he would like his deposit back. The sales manager (or GM, can't remember at the moment) now takes the phone and says to Tim "You signed papers saying you agreed to purchase the vehicle. The deposit is non-refundable." which of course makes no sense to Tim. The manager (David) goes on to say that "The car has been shipped here and cannot be returned."
So now Tim is confused and looks to me and his sister for help on the matter. He says he isn't familiar with how things work in Canada but still feels this isn't right. Now I make a personal visit to OpenRoad Toyota to see this manager David. He's a fat son of a bitch and is arrogant throughout the entire conversation trying to fool us into thinking this is a done deal and Tim cannot back out of it no matter what we say. So, we get up and head for the door. Just as we are about to leave, I think to myself "I want to see what Tim signed".
We go back and find David once more and ask him to show us the paper Tim signed. David gets his fat ass up from his desk with a smug look on his face like this is a waste of everyone's time. To our amazement, it takes David about 10-15 minutes to get back to us. We can see he found the paper, he's holding it in his hand. So wtf? Finally, he mopes back to his desk and shows us the paper. On the very bottom of the form, the salesman has circled and highlighted a hand written message that says: "NOTHING PROMISED"
So at this point, I'm thinking in my head "Fuck you asshole, I just fucking caught you". I ask him point blank "Are you going to give us back the deposit or not?". Get this, he says " No." 
We get up and leave. I used to work at Honda so we head over there and I ask employees if they've ever heard of such a stupid situation and they all laugh at what an idiot this David guy is. About 10-15 minutes after leaving OpenRoad Toyota, I get a phone call from them. Some girl from accounting informs me that: "Your deposit will be returned to you in the mail"  That's right David, fuck you.
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10-02-2011, 05:43 PM
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#172 | | Rs has made me the man i am today!
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^ Sorry to hear about your experience at OpenRoad. When was this?
And although it was likely a bad experience with David, he is the person who inevitably issued the request that the deposit be refunded to you. Accounting has no power of that.
Kev
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10-02-2011, 05:54 PM
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#173 | | JDMEK9Mod | DogWhisperer
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this was probably 2 years ago now. I know David requested the deposit be refunded but that's not important. It was going to happen either way and he could have at LEAST tried to be a man and apologize when he was CLEARLY wrong in every way imaginable. But instead, he pussies out and has a girl from accounting call me. I had never had such a ridiculous experience at a dealership before this. It was almost as if he felt he could bully a new immigrant into buying a car. Absolute douche bag thing to try and do.
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10-02-2011, 06:20 PM
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#174 | | Rs has made me the man i am today!
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Regrettable to hear. FYI David is no longer with OpenRoad.
And as a general reply to this subject, I've been working within the industry for three years now. Inevitably, the general problem has to more to do with certain individuals rather than a specific dealer group or store. Some members of the industry have inherited the "sleazy" tactics that were inherent decades ago.
As a consumer, I can completely understand the frustration that some people feel in purchasing a vehicle. It's a shame to hear this stuff still happens today.
Kev
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10-02-2011, 07:43 PM
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#175 | | I only answer to my username, my real name is Irrelevant!
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haven't caught up with the thread yet
but you should forward this thread to the owner
and write a google review Regency Infiniti
(we should all write a google review )
and contact Regency Auto Group about it Vancouver car dealer - Contact Regency Auto Group in British Columbia
and play up on Regency's Values Quote:
Our Philosophy
The Regency Auto Group strives to provide every individual with personal attention and care... Like a guest in our home!
Our Values
Live up to our commitment - Take pride in what we do - Treat all our guests as individuals - Communicate fairly, openly and honestly - Your satisfaction is our success!
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