REVscene - Vancouver Automotive Forum

fsy82 · 07-23-2014, 02:12 PM

I'm really surprised this hasn't been posted already on Revscene. I've been watching the non existence news report here and than I saw a news report from Aljazeera and I am just blown away with what the Israel government is getting away with. There has been over 28 UN sanctions against Israel during this assault into Gaza.

On Facebook all I see is children and the public being killed. There was a report where out of the roughly 500 people killed that 80% have been civilians.

I have a two year old and watching kids being basically murdered is ridiculous.

Discuss

fsy82 · 07-23-2014, 02:14 PM

UN to investigate Israel's Gaza offensive - Middle East - Al Jazeera English

UN now is investigating Israel offensive into Gaza.

29 states voted in favour of the investigation.
17 abstained, including many EU states.
1 voted against - the US.

GabAlmighty · 07-23-2014, 02:31 PM

Good thing the UN's getting involved!

xpl0sive · 07-23-2014, 02:43 PM

Israel = US. There's your answer as to why they are able to get away with it. The local media will not report about it because Western Media = Western Government... and the UN is a joke to me after what happened with Iraq. UN told the US not to go into Iraq. Guess what happened?

fsy82 · 07-23-2014, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xpl0sive

Israel = US. There's your answer as to why they are able to get away with it. The local media will not report about it because Western Media = Western Government... and the UN is a joke to me after what happened with Iraq. UN told the US not to go into Iraq. Guess what happened?

I can't understand how a lot of Arab countries are just sitting and doing nothing when so many human rights offenses are being committed. Last week the Al Jazeera local news station got warning shots and they had to evacuate.

News reporter were interviewing four young boys playing soccer and not even half an hour later a missile strike killed the four boys in front of the reporters.

Hondaracer · 07-23-2014, 02:54 PM

They were tired of Gaza firing random rockets all over the place and finally said we've had enough and moved in with their ground offensive.

Honestly, this shit isn't going to end until isreal just flattens the palastinians and even then, what are you going to do? Emalgamate the remaining "non-threats" into Israeli culture and have suicide bombers non stop?

There's no end in sight for this stuff

xpl0sive · 07-23-2014, 02:55 PM

What are these Arab countries you speak of? Saudi Arabia? They have been under US control since the 80's... Iraq? They got their own problems... Iran? I don't really want to see them involved because then the US will have to step in and the crazy Iranian fucks will fire nukes. No good for anyone

meme405 · 07-23-2014, 02:55 PM

This ought to be good.

fsy82 · 07-23-2014, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hondaracer

They were tired of Gaza firing random rockets all over the place and finally said we've had enough and moved in with their ground offensive.

Honestly, this shit isn't going to end until isreal just flattens the palastinians and even then, what are you going to do? Emalgamate the remaining "non-threats" into Israeli culture and have suicide bombers non stop?

There's no end in sight for this stuff

Ground offensive began this week. Before this it was Israel firing into Gaza

fsy82 · 07-23-2014, 03:01 PM

Its not even about the "war" anymore. The stories are about innocent kids being killed. How does destroying a hospital or firing into heavily populated civilians area help their war?

Hondaracer · 07-23-2014, 03:02 PM

They were exchanging fire after those kids got killed

Forever now though Gaza has been firing rockets into Israeli territory, shit
Is like WW2 with occupied France firing V2's into London

Hondaracer · 07-23-2014, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fsy82

Its not even about the "war" anymore. The stories are about innocent kids being killed. How does destroying a hospital or firing into heavily populated civilians area help their war?

What have either side been doing for the past 10 years besides sending messages?

nma · 07-23-2014, 03:10 PM

zionist bs incoming!!!!!!!

Hondaracer · 07-23-2014, 03:12 PM

When it actually ditrecty involves Jews there is no conspiracy

GS8 · 07-23-2014, 03:14 PM

The whole Flotilla incident back in 2010 got me interested in investigating the Israel / Palestinian conflict. Let's just say I have my own views on this matter and they don't sway in favour of the Israeli government at all.

There are Arabs & Jews who only want to coexist in peace with each other but that will never happen with stubborn, rich, powerful sociopathical politicians who spout rhetoric like a broken record, feeling that if you throw the words against the oblivious over and over again that it will eventually stick.

Between Benny and Kerry, the latter comes off as the marionette.

fsy82 · 07-23-2014, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hondaracer

What have either side been doing for the past 10 years besides sending messages?

There has been conflict for many years but now its gotten to another level. Thats where a lot of people draw the line. First rule of war is to make sure the innocent are not killed.

There will be pro Israel and pro Palestine people on here but try to look at it this way. Look at this situation as a human being. What did a 1 year old child do to deserve to be killed? Or 4 brothers in their young teens?

Ulic Qel-Droma · 07-23-2014, 03:37 PM

go back far enough and you'll see the jewish empire shrink just like Palestine did lol.

it's just an exchange of territory, done in the most old fashion way possible.

just a game us humans play over and over and over and over and over and over again.

being 2014AC vs 900BC makes no difference. technology may have changed, but the ones wielding it haven't.

we are still human. and we will conduct business like humans do.

to be honest...

(israel and all that they encompass) + (Palestinians and all that they encompass) = current result.

there is no other answer to this equation. this is literally the only way things could have turned out. no matter how many times we turn back time or try to change the dynamics of the game... the same result will happen.

like drunk driving, the problem isnt the rules or the cars or the alcohol... its people.
just like gun laws. drug laws. any other form of control. they dont work, because the issue is human nature. not anything else.

we are the reason why everything is the way it is. no more, no less.

that being said, anyone that disagrees, please provide a solution where both parties would agree and put their guns down lol.

sorry, there isnt a solution as long as homo sapiens are the actors, that was a trick question.

instead of hating on this situation, we should be proud, proud that we're not dropping nukes and defending our values (subjective to individuals/cultures/religions) and wants and needs at ANY COST even at the annihilation of the self and everyone around us.

this is literally a blessing in disguise. it provides dynamic change and advancement, hidden in a shroud of death and misery (it's okay, more babies will be borned. those civilians and soldiers will be replaced so we can perpetuate this mode of advancement).

advancement is a machine gun, and human life is the ammo. no doubt about it.

it sucks, sorta. i mean, we here in vancouver are enjoying an artificial environment built on hundreds of thousands of years of advancement built on bloodshed. who are we to say it's bad lol. we are living off of it, and so will our kids. and their kids. etc.

i mean, part of me thinks its really bad, but ... the other part of me goes... "i dont think humans have known any other way, there has never been another way? is another way just a delusional thought? some idealistic thought? lol, maybe this IS the best way..."

history proves so.

Ball.J.Inder · 07-23-2014, 03:46 PM

Israeli government seems to be a little trigger happy, when they can find other ways to go after the militants without bombing the city where children are everywhere.

Hamas and the militants on the other hand have been provoking Israel for years by shooting rockets at Israeli civilians and bombing busses, yet no one on facebook or what not seemed to care about that? US funding provides Israel's offensive weapons, but the US also helped develop the Iron Dome which is why we don't see posts of dead Israeli children and civilians.

Long story short, both sides are fucked up and nothing we can do but let them fight it out. Israel will continue to defend themselves without discrepancy between civilians and militants, and palestinian militants will continually attack civilians and hide within their own people like cowards.

Presto · 07-23-2014, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ball.J.Inder

palestinian militants will continually attack civilians and hide within their own people like cowards.

Hamas militants. The Palestinians are their meat shields.

Quote:

Hamas's Civilian Death Strategy

Let's state the obvious: No one likes to see dead children. Well, that's not completely true: Hamas does. They would prefer those children to be Jewish, but there is greater value to them if they are Palestinian. Outmatched by Israel's military, handicapped by rocket launchers with the steady hands of Barney Fife, Hamas is playing the long game of moral revulsion.

With this conflict about to enter its third week, winning the PR war is the best Hamas can hope to achieve. Their weapon of choice, however, seems to be the cannon fodder of their own people, performing double duty in also sounding the drumbeat of Israeli condemnation. If you can't beat Iron Dome, then deploy sacrificial children as human shields.

Civilian casualties will continue to mount. The evolving story will focus on the collateral damage of Palestinian lives. Israel's moral dilemma will receive little attention. Each time the ledgers of relative loss are reported, world public opinion will turn against the Jewish state and box Israel into an even tighter corner of the Middle East.

All the ordinary rules of warfare are upended in Gaza. Everything about this conflict is asymmetrical—Hamas wears no uniforms and they don't meet Israeli soldiers on battlefields. With the exception of kaffiyeh scarves, it isn't possible to distinguish a Hamas militant from a noncombatant pharmacist. In Vietnam, the U.S. military learned guerrilla warfare in jungles. In Gaza, the Jewish state has had to adapt to the altogether surreal terrain of apartment complexes and schoolhouses.

There are now reports that Hamas and Islamic Jihad are transporting themselves throughout Gaza in ambulances packed with children. Believe it or not, a donkey laden with explosives detonated just the other day.

The asymmetry is complicated even further by the status of these civilians. Under such maddening circumstances, are the adults, in a legal and moral sense, actual civilians? To qualify as a civilian one has to do more than simply look the part. How you came to find yourself in such a vulnerable state matters. After all, when everyone is wearing casual street clothing, civilian status is shared widely.

The people of Gaza overwhelmingly elected Hamas, a terrorist outfit dedicated to the destruction of Israel, as their designated representatives. Almost instantly Hamas began stockpiling weapons and using them against a more powerful foe with a solid track record of retaliation.

What did Gazans think was going to happen? Surely they must have understood on election night that their lives would now be suspended in a state of utter chaos. Life expectancy would be miserably low; children would be without a future. Staying alive would be a challenge, if staying alive even mattered anymore.

To make matters worse, Gazans sheltered terrorists and their weapons in their homes, right beside ottoman sofas and dirty diapers. When Israel warned them of impending attacks, the inhabitants defiantly refused to leave.

On some basic level, you forfeit your right to be called civilians when you freely elect members of a terrorist organization as statesmen, invite them to dinner with blood on their hands and allow them to set up shop in your living room as their base of operations. At that point you begin to look a lot more like conscripted soldiers than innocent civilians. And you have wittingly made yourself targets.

It also calls your parenting skills into serious question. In the U.S. if a parent is found to have locked his or her child in a parked car on a summer day with the windows closed, a social worker takes the children away from the demonstrably unfit parent. In Gaza, parents who place their children in the direct line of fire are rewarded with an interview on MSNBC where they can call Israel a genocidal murderer.

The absurdity of Israel's Gaza campaigns requires an entirely new terminology for the conduct of wars. "Enemy combatants," "theater of war," "innocent civilians," "casualties of war" all have ambiguous meaning in Gaza. There is nothing casual about why so many Gazans die; these deaths are tragically predictable and predetermined. Hamas builds tunnels for terrorists and their rockets; bomb shelters for the people of Gaza never entered the Hamas leaders' minds.

So much innocence is lost in this citizen army, which serves as the armor for demented leaders and their dwindling arsenal of rockets and martyrs. In Gaza the death toll of civilians is an endgame disguised as a tragedy. It is a sideshow—without death, Hamas has nothing to show for its efforts.

Surely there are civilians who have been killed in this conflict who have taken every step to distance themselves from this fast-moving war zone, and children whose parents are not card-carrying Hamas loyalists. These are the true innocents of Gaza. It is they for whom our sympathy should be reserved. The impossibility of identifying them, and saving them, is Israel's deepest moral dilemma.

haymura · 07-23-2014, 04:21 PM

Ronin · 07-23-2014, 04:40 PM

Honestly, I'm willing to let this work itself out. I'm not all that bothered by any of the Middle East anymore. There's enough stuff for us to work out here for me to use my limited amount of care on.

Yes, civilian deaths are horrible but there isn't a damn thing any of us can do about it and the West should just stay out of it anyways. Every time the West interferes with the Middle East, something else catastrophic happens so how about we just let them do their thing?

StylinRed · 07-23-2014, 04:42 PM

Older members who may remember my past posts, were probably expecting me to make a thread about this but I've been refraining to do so for a couple reasons

1) being the tragic situation is just getting me too emotional to post about

2) I've been concerned that CiC's imminent joining in on the discussion will turn off everyone else to the tragedy of the situation.

So i'll try to make this short and then retreat from the discussion.

This latest incident started because 3 Israeli teens who live in colonies taken over from Palestinians were killed after hitchhiking, it's unknown who killed them or why but Israel took this opportunity to blame Hamas as it was the perfect situation to paint blame as Hamas was finally conforming with the West Bank and forming a unity government (which incensed Israel)

This caused Israeli citizens to kidnap and beat a Palestinian boy and then burning him alive.

That's what sparked the conflict, prior to that the ceasefire was seemingly working aside from the economic blockade not being lifted. But now we have a repeat of the destruction of Gaza.

And Israel keeps trying to justify murder but

you can't justify murder not even the Nazis did that. There are now Over 650 civilian deaths, thousands injured and well over 100,000 displaced within their ghetto.

Yes I call Gaza a ghetto because that's what it is...everything about it is monitored and controlled by Israel, most homes did not have running water even before this incursion and Gaza itself only has electricity for several hours a day, Hospitals are kept with inadequate supply of meds, homes are still in tatters from the prior conflicts as construction supplies are kept out of the area; food is scarce as well, that's a ghetto.

There are only 2 entrances into the ghetto and they are kept locked so the only way to get any form of supplies into the ghetto are through tunnels, tunnels which Israel has consistently layed waste to. How is it not a Ghetto? how is whats described not like Nazi ghettos which had secret routes where Jews used to bring in food or help people escape? Gaza is a ghetto.

Israel drops leaflets or makes phone calls before they bomb an area but BBC news correspondents say from the moment leaflets are dropped or people are called there is less than 1 minute before the bombs actually drop. So civilians have to run as fast as they can from one corner of the ghetto to the other...the psychological effects must be staggering.

Israel just bombed a Hospital, a hospital! There have been numerous news correspondents for agencies/channels like ABC News, CNN, Reuters who have been speaking out against what they've been witnessing on the ground (from indiscriminate attacks on civilians to Israelis cheering over the bombing of homes) those correspondents have been removed from their posts...CiC made a post about that but I've no doubt it went largely ignored due to the "CiC effect".

I know Israel is trying to make a case with the "rockets" that militants are firing in (there is some merit there) but what people don't realize is that, previously, those rockets were homemade coffee cans that don't make it past the fields into any habitable area and those that do make it through simply knock the paint off of a house (thats how weak they were)

In addition to that, the rockets had only been flying into occupied territories, cities taken over by Israel by throwing out Palestinians (Gazans) from their homes and moving Israelis in, so it would be like me throwing rocks at my home after you kicked me out of it!

I know It may sound like I'm saying 'come on so what?' but I'm not I just want a better picture of whats actually going on because people who look at the issue passingly, imagine actual military type rockets and think that they're landing into an inhabited area that's also legitimately Israels and (but they weren't)

I admit this time around though the militants seem to have stronger rockets that are reaching further in and capable of causing actual damage to the point of activating the Israeli Iron Dome.

So let me say here I don't agree with the militants and Hamas' tactics! I actually think it's the dumbest thing they could do because they know it won't do anything except illicit Israels indiscriminate murder of Palestinians.

But I understand why they're fighting back, in what I imagine they view to be, the best way they know how. After all they're psychologically tortured, economically deprived, and malnourished, uneducated people (thanks to Israel)... So who wouldn't be fighting back in anyway possible after being subjected to the atrocities they have been? even Jews fought back against the Nazis whichever way they knew how. But at least there was an end for the Jewish plight as the world came to their aid...The question is when will it come for Palestinians.

edit israel bombed a hospital again today saying that only militants were in the hospital -_-

SiRV · 07-23-2014, 06:51 PM

UN has been useless for most military affairs since the Rwandan genocide... they really should be disbanded to save all govts some money.

falcon · 07-23-2014, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fsy82

Its not even about the "war" anymore. The stories are about innocent kids being killed. How does destroying a hospital or firing into heavily populated civilians area help their war?

Hamas uses built up civilian areas to fire rockets from and base their groups. Something like 15 launchers were found in a primary school in Gaza.

This is the problem with Hamas/ They COULD fire from open unpopulated areas but they don't. They use the civilians as cover. Until now Israel has had a lot of restraint NOT firing rockets to where they were coming from. And instead of carpet bombing the areas they decided to go in on foot to limit as many casualties.

I've read hours on the topic over the last few weeks and there is so much more to everything. There is a really good AMA on Reddit that has a lot of the background info going back to the 1800's and how it got where it is today.

I don't support civilians being killed, but at what point do they go "enough is enough with all these rockets, were going in".. that happened now. Something like 2,200 rockets have been fired from Gaza into Israel since July 8th. Think about that for a minute.

Hamas as openly said they are for the complete destruction of the state of Israel and the killing of Jews. Who is the real terrorist organization? Not Israel.

falcon · 07-23-2014, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GS8

The whole Flotilla incident back in 2010 got me interested in investigating the Israel / Palestinian conflict. Let's just say I have my own views on this matter and they don't sway in favour of the Israeli government at all.

There are Arabs & Jews who only want to coexist in peace with each other but that will never happen with stubborn, rich, powerful sociopathical politicians who spout rhetoric like a broken record, feeling that if you throw the words against the oblivious over and over again that it will eventually stick.

Between Benny and Kerry, the latter comes off as the marionette.

Something a lot of people forget is there is something like 1.5 million Arabs living happily IN Israel, with full citizenship and democratic rights. It is not the people who want Israel to go away, it's Hamas. And until they are completely disbanded, there will never be a chance for peace.