Excessive Speeding...or not?

[congee]

I was pulled over at the Alex Fraser, and the officer said I was going 130 in a 90 zone. He went to his car to write me up a ticket, and when he came back he said its a $370 ticket for excessive speeding. He said he knows I only had 1 ticket before but I was going to kill someone. I just nodded the whole time, then he said the back of the ticket shows how to dispute the ticket, and I could go.

Anyhow, when he said I was doing 130 does he mean 130 on the dot? If I'm not mistaken, I needed to be doing at least 131 to get an excessive speeding ticket. I dont want to be asking for a disclosure and have him write me up a higher fine if he has me down faster than 130km/hr. Then again, if I can get a 146 violation instead of 148, its only half the fine.

[zulutango]

Excessive are at least 41 kmh over the posted limit & that is $368. 61 plus over is $483. He will have to prove more than 41 kmh over to get the excessive ticket. JPs usually like to see quite a bit more than 1 km over...although, technically 42 k over would be the goal to achieve.

[congee]

I recently got the court notice for this. Totally forgot about this ticket as I disputed it well over a year ago...

Is there enough time to still request for disclosure if the court date is set about 2 months from now?? I'm not sure how busy or how fast the police detachment gets thru stuff like this (Deas Island RCMP).

The backgroud on the incident, I got pulled over going northbound coming off the Alex Fraser. The officer was camped just after the Cliveden overpass. I'm assuming he has been setup there for a while. (Why else would he be parked sideways on the dirt area between merging lanes?)What kind of information should I expect from a disclosure? Is there anything specific I should request in my particular case?

[Eff-1]

not too late to ask for disclosure.

the notes most likely will say the exact speed he clocked you at.

[CRS]

Originally Posted by Eff-1

not too late to ask for disclosure.

the notes most likely will say the exact speed he clocked you at.

+1

Not too late. Fax the request to the department and keep a copy of the fax letter as well as the confirmation of transmission completed fax/successful fax.

[Bainne]

9 weeks+- is usally recommended for a disclosure request - more or less depending on the amount fo data you are requesting. If the officer decides to be an ass (I've heard some love to do this) and provide you the information on the day the case is to be heard, or drops it off to you a day in advance you can always request that the JP stay the proceedings as adequate time has not be given - thus the trial is prejudice against you. From there you could pursue a section 11(b) or if you have a nice JP they could just throw it out.

Also make sure you send the disclosure request in a signature required envelope to confirm the officer does in fact receive it. You may want to send one sig required, and a second, regular mail, 3 weeks before the trial if you have not received anything. Also call them. Do your best to make sure you get what you requested.



You could always consider a section 11 (b) charter argument if you want to try for the technical way of combating the ticket. Or you are forced to stay the trial due to the officer and prosecution's negligence with the disclosure.

Precedence has been set at around 11 months as "reasonable time" for a court date for a traffic violation (I believe). Your trial will be what, 22 months?

You'll have to look into it for yourself if you want more details. The paperwork and process is not for the feint of heart and may require the assistance of legal counsel. It all depends on what you stand to loose by the ticket being successful whether its worth it to you or not.

Just be prepared to have a far less lenient JP if you bring up a charter motion - though you can always try and stike a deal with the prosecutor (their time is valuable), especially if they bump you to provincal court (some JP's refuse to address charter arguements).

Gotta love the Canadian law system - more concerned about due process and procedure than actual justice... might as well take advantage of the freedoms we have.




* I'm not a lawyer and the information written may be innaccurate. You should always consult a legal profesional for accurate legal counsel and advice.

[zulutango]

None of the Traffic Court JPs I ever appeared before would hear a Charter argument. They referred it to Provincial court with a Crown Council prosecuting. Anyone who showed up in Traffic Court on my VTs and started a Charter argument, got bounced upstairs right away. Never di have a single Charter VT ever go ahead in 28 years of court. Just my experience. As posted above, you need to lawyer up if you get into the deep end of that pool. Expect to spend a bunch of money as well.

[CRS]

Originally Posted by zulutango

None of the Traffic Court JPs I ever appeared before would hear a Charter argument. They referred it to Provincial court with a Crown Council prosecuting. Anyone who showed up in Traffic Court on my VTs and started a Charter argument, got bounced upstairs right away. Never di have a single Charter VT ever go ahead in 28 years of court. Just my experience. As posted above, you need to lawyer up if you get into the deep end of that pool. Expect to spend a bunch of money as well.

Or if you're found guilty and want to appeal.

[zulutango]

Yep....,it starts with paying, per page, for the transcript...and goes downhill from there.

[kookoobird88]

im in a similar situation, i got a speeding ticket in october 09 im disputing it but havent recieved a court date yet. i was on burn road (sp). the cop said i was going 120 and i got a ticket for excessive speeding, to be honest i never saw any speed limit signs and was going with the flow of traffic, i may have been going 90-100 but not 120. anyways on my ticket i cant see anywhere where he recorded my speed. there are some numbers that are barely visible to the eye at the top of the ticket, i dunno if thats generally where they write it or if theres an actaully spot on the ticket where the speed is recorded, anyways im gonna try and get it down to a speeding ticket not an excessive speeding ticket.

[zulutango]

There is no provision to show the speed on the face of the VT. You wouldn't want ti there for the JP to see anyway. The fine tells you what speed bracket you were charged with. Excessive is either 41 t0 60 kmh over ($368) or 61 + ( $483).

[Bainne]

AFAIK Speed won't often be written on your side of the ticket, only the officer's side.

Did he inform you how to managed to obtain your speed? If it was through something such as a radar gun, you are going to have difficulty disputing it.

If it was merely an "observed" excessive speeding this will likely be in your favour. If the officer had a partner in the vehicle who also observed your "excessive speeding" and shows to court to testify... highly unlikely your version of events will be accepted unless you can provide physical evidence or provide something that places doubt on the evidence.

This is why you request disclosure when you receive a court date so you can get these details. be sure to check for any writing discrepancies that look like additions after the fact.


If the officer merely observed you speeding excessively, and you genuinely believe you were traveling under the 40km/h limit you may either be able to talk to the officer before court, or explain your situation to the JP. It would be recommend providing an exact or relative estimate of the rate you believe you were traveling and be prepared to plead and accept guilty to this.

Excessive speeding is a serious offense that can quickly lead to DL suspensions and JP's should be aware of this; hence in my experience, there is a little higher standard on burden of proof for it than just mere observation.

It is likely to pose reasonable doubt on the evidence of the officer for the charges of EXCESSIVE speeding... getting away with the entire thing however is unlikely.


Again as usual, not a lawyer, not legal advice, information may be inaccurate, consult a professional. Also if I'm incorrect in anything hopefully one of the officer posters or others can correct it quickly


Now how the devil do I stop getting these updates in my inbox :S

[congee]

So I got the officer's notes in the mail.

Basically he had me down for 137km/h in a 90 zone. "M/L" was written underneath. Not sure what that means. And "SPOLSR" means laser?

The only issue I have with the officer's note is that he mentioned heavy traffic. I was pulled over on the Alex Fraser on a Saturday afternoon. And to me, 4-5 cars in the near surrounding is not "heavy traffic". Especially for the AF. Also the "radar calibration" box was blank. Not sure if thats relevent.

As far as evidence, I guess this will suffice for the JP. So for me should I plead guilty? What are the chances of getting the fine reduced for being 6km/h over the excessive bracket? My only defence is that, aside from the clocked speed, I was confident I was driving relatively safe for the conditions and was in control of the vehicle the entire time. I was speeding but not excessive. However I'm thinking the "heavy traffic" could work against me.

Also now that the olympics are over, will a lot of officers be on holidays? I dont think my officer will pull a no show since he's a traffic cop. But that's the best I can hope for.

Thanks to everyone for their input!

[jlenko]

Woah, dude.

Originally Posted by congee

he had me down for 137km/h in a 90 zone.

I was speeding but not excessive.

How is 47 km/h over the speed limit NOT excessive? That's 52% over the speed limit. I think you're the only person here that thinks it's not excessive.

Personally, I can drive at 90 km/h over the Alex Fraser and don't feel the need to go 47 km/h faster than that... ever.

Good luck with your dispute.

[zulutango]

"M/L" probably means marked car and Laser used. The other code is shorthand for something. Everybody uses their own. 5 cars is heavy as opposed to no cars. A lot has to do with what it was like at the moment he took your reading...there may have been a number of vehicles close to you at the time. The "radar calibration" box would not be checked if he used Laser. Radar is also not "calibrated" at roadside. The units are only sent away to the manufacturer for recalibration, if they show error messages showing they need to be factory recalibrated. Laser is target specific and the presence of other vehicles may be something he wanted to list in his notes. 6 kmh over the 41 kms you were over the posted limit is excessive speed as defined in the charge you were given. You were not charged for driving unsafely...you were charged with excessive speed and that is what the ticket was for. Also "relatively safely" is not something I would tender in my defence for a charge. It is either safely or not. Once again, safety has nothing to do with the charge you are trying to beat.

The olympic situation will have nothing to do with him being there..it will be many months before this is scheduled for trial. If he is a Traffic member then he is paid and scheduled to be in court and has experience in prosecuting MV Act charges...like excessive speed.

[bui95]

Originally Posted by jlenko

Woah, dude.



How is 47 km/h over the speed limit NOT excessive? That's 52% over the speed limit. I think you're the only person here that thinks it's not excessive.

Personally, I can drive at 90 km/h over the Alex Fraser and don't feel the need to go 47 km/h faster than that... ever.

Good luck with your dispute.

you're an idiot. the op already admitted to speeding. what he's trying to is to get it reduced to just speeding instead of excessive speeding since he was only 6km over the regular speeding ticket. read the whole thread before making your stupid remarks.

[congee]

The other code was "SPOLSR" "U 131".

The trial is set for a couple of weeks from now. The ticket was from Deas Island RCMP, but the disclosure was mailed from Ridge-Meadows RCMP. So I guess the officer transfered to a different detachment.

From the sounds of it I'm SOL. I guess my best option is to contact the officer for a plea bargain to save everyone time...but on what grounds would the officer accept a reduction? I've had 2 regular speed violations in the past 10 years. Other than that I have no encounters with the police. What is not on records is that since I've gotten this ticket I've been driving with more awareness of my speed. A $400 ticket is quite a scare.

[jlenko]

Originally Posted by bui95

you're an idiot. the op already admitted to speeding. what he's trying to is to get it reduced to just speeding instead of excessive speeding since he was only 6km over the regular speeding ticket. read the whole thread before making your stupid remarks.

Pot, kettle.

He's trying to get out of a ticket he clearly deserves. And you're the one who is an idiot, if you condone his speeding and trying to get out of it.

[congee]

jlenko..

Sure I deserve the ticket. I dont deny that. But I think $400 is quite high of a fine and thats what I'm fighting against. The point of a ticket is to "punish" the violator of what has been allegated. I'm just looking for a lighter "punishment".

I think you've taken it out of context if you think I'm trying to get away with it. Then again, I'd be very happy if somehow this violation gets dismissed. But regardless of the outcome, it wouldnt change the way I am driving now. I do try to learn from mistakes.

[jlenko]

Originally Posted by congee

But regardless of the outcome, it wouldnt change the way I am driving now. I do try to learn from mistakes.

You have a way of writing confusing posts... are you still driving like this? Or did you actually learn from your ticket and have slowed down? If you're still driving like that... you deserve the ticket AND to lose your licence. That kind of speed on public roads is just stupid.

We don't need to bring up the pics from the last idiot who killed someone speeding over the same bridge who killed an innocent person, do we?

But... if you have learned, and have slowed down... I'll let you off the harassment I'm just sick and tired of people coming to this forum trying to get off when they're clearly guilty - and I'm sure the officers don't appreciate this kind of abuse of the forum either. Not that me haranguing you makes it any better...

[skidmark]

You can contact the officer and ask him to clarify the shorthand shown in the notes.

If the court finds that the speed you were measured at is the speed that the officer says you were traveling, there will be no reduction on the fine. All you can ask for at that point is time to pay.

So, you either have to convince the JP to find a lower speed at trial, or convince the officer to accept a guilty plea to the next speed bracket down and be satisfied with the ticketed amount for it.

[bui95]

Originally Posted by jlenko

Pot, kettle.

He's trying to get out of a ticket he clearly deserves. And you're the one who is an idiot, if you condone his speeding and trying to get out of it.

he's not trying to get out of the ticket fool. he's trying to get it reduced. read his thread again....god...do you know how to read? whatever, done with this thread and you.

[jlenko]

Originally Posted by bui95

he's not trying to get out of the ticket fool. he's trying to get it reduced. read his thread again....god...do you know how to read? whatever, done with this thread and you.

I might not know how to read, but I know not to drive like a maniac.

[Revillusion GT]

Originally Posted by bui95

he's not trying to get out of the ticket fool. he's trying to get it reduced. read his thread again....god...do you know how to read? whatever, done with this thread and you.

What I don't understand is why he's still trying to get it reduced ? Other than being pissy that he got caught. You were caught for 47 over the speed limit on laser radar, pay the fine and be happy you didn't get more than one ticket considering that he marked heavy traffic.

[ezekiel]

u know u can dispute the amount of fine right?