Official 2008/2009 Canucks Thread

[iwantaskyline]

Originally Posted by trdees

if you were so great at scouting why arent you a scout? You said that watching D and Z at there first games u can totally tell their superstars and Kesler is not

Do you know how stupid you sound? Read my post again, I said by watching a player play you can see what his potential can be. Some players simply have a higher ceiling then other players. But that doesn't mean they will have more successful careers. Take Alexander Daigle for example he had a very high ceiling but didn't have the worth ethic to get to that ceiling. Players like Datsuyk and Z had the skill but were lacking in the physical department when they were drafted but their worth ethic is second to nobody. Plus Detroit's player development is awesome, they make sure their draft picks train in the off season, eat right, and don't rush them into the NHL.

Anyone with knowledge about the game or has played it can tell what kind of player Kesler is. I'll give you a quick scouting report on him; great player along the boards, above average speed, good checker who fits into a defensive role perfectly, needs to finish better, sub-par on ice vision. His ceiling being very generous (if he improves dramatically in the offensive zone) is Rob Brindomire. Or Kris Draper which isn't that bad.

[Tim Budong]

seriously..i wantaskyline..
are u the canucks pro scout or somethin, cuz that position is avaliable..

fuckin hell
what u said may be right in terms of the wings development program where they are soo paitient and encouraging to the players, so can the same be said if those two were dumped into a different system?

by all means, all three are talented, what is keslar and zetteberg traded places back then, can the same be said.

this so called "ceiling" is bullshit man

[iwantaskyline]

Originally Posted by darthchilli

seriously..i wantaskyline..
are u the canucks pro scout or somethin, cuz that position is avaliable..

fuckin hell
what u said may be right in terms of the wings development program where they are soo paitient and encouraging to the players, so can the same be said if those two were dumped into a different system?

by all means, all three are talented, what is keslar and zetteberg traded places back then, can the same be said.

this so called "ceiling" is bullshit man

It's what every scout in the NHL does...look at a players ceiling. Some people are just more talented then others and some are just more physically gifted. Who knows where Kesler would be if he was drafted by the Wings instead, but his ceiling will be still the same. He's a 60 point guy at his peak. Highly doubt he ever gets there though.

Oh and when you say all 3 are talented, they are but the other 2 are just A LOT more talented.

[goo3]

You guys play hockey pools? If you do, you know what type of young talent is available on other teams at the centre position. Kesler would NOT be on your radar if you're looking for scoring.

Crosby, Malkin, Kopitar, Mueller, Toews, Statsney, Staal, Staal, Getzlaf, Carter, Richards, Bergeron, Gagne, Backstrom...

These guys can create plays and make the defense pay for little mistakes. Kesler doesn't have the upside these guys do. I think ppl have forgotten what real talent looks like cuz we've been missing it for so long.

[Tim Budong]

Mike Gillis' inspiration for this summers FA signings

[youtube]NxYOlRcwqiY[/youtube]

[mako]

good fight!!

[Tim Budong]

Craig Coxe vs Probert!!!!!!

[iwantaskyline]

I'm still waiting for the great moderator Hondaracer who called me a fucken idiot to come and reply to my post. I guess hes a pussy ^_^.

[KenM]

Originally Posted by iwantaskyline

I'm still waiting for the great moderator Hondaracer who called me a fucken idiot to come and reply to my post. I guess hes a pussy ^_^.

i really don't think your arguments deserve a reply to be honest.

[hi5-ive]

you guys should take this to the ice , fight like the video hehe jk

[SumAznGuy]

Originally Posted by iwantaskyline

It's what every scout in the NHL does...look at a players ceiling. Some people are just more talented then others and some are just more physically gifted. Who knows where Kesler would be if he was drafted by the Wings instead, but his ceiling will be still the same. He's a 60 point guy at his peak. Highly doubt he ever gets there though.

Oh and when you say all 3 are talented, they are but the other 2 are just A LOT more talented.

The only thing i have to say to this is just watch and wait. In a few 10 20 years we will know who is right and who is w rong. My only feed back to this debate is that Kesler's first full season on the nuck's was in 2005-2006 when he was 21.
Z was 22 in his first full year, and Dat was 24. All three had mediocor rookie years, while D and Z had better second years. By third year they were or almost were a point a game guys.
As for Kesler, the same thing could not be said as he was less than half a point a game this past year though he did spend a lot of time on the "checking" line as opposed to the other 2 who got to play on more scoring oriented lines.

[Lomac]

Originally Posted by iwantaskyline

I guess hes a pussy ^_^.

Watch yourself...

[iwantaskyline]

Originally Posted by Lomac

Watch yourself...

Guy calls me a fucking moron I can't call him a pussy with a smiley face?

[iwantaskyline]

Originally Posted by SumAznGuy

The only thing i have to say to this is just watch and wait. In a few 10 20 years we will know who is right and who is w rong. My only feed back to this debate is that Kesler's first full season on the nuck's was in 2005-2006 when he was 21.
Z was 22 in his first full year, and Dat was 24. All three had mediocor rookie years, while D and Z had better second years. By third year they were or almost were a point a game guys.
As for Kesler, the same thing could not be said as he was less than half a point a game this past year though he did spend a lot of time on the "checking" line as opposed to the other 2 who got to play on more scoring oriented lines.

I'm guessing you don't watch Kesler play that often. He sucks when he is put into an offensive role. He's admitted himself that he excels when he plays a defensive game and isn't as effective when he is thrust into an offensive role. He was never drafted to be a scorer, management knew what kind of player he is; a checking line center. He doesn't have the play making ability and vision on the ice to be an effective 1st or 2nd line center. These types of skills don't blossom magically...

I hope you're kidding when you say all 3 had bad rookie years. Z got 44 points in his first year which is better then Kesler's career year last year. Same with Dat.

[nsmb]

holy shit hockeys on next week!

[jigga250]

Originally Posted by iwantaskyline

I'm guessing you don't watch Kesler play that often. He sucks when he is put into an offensive role. He's admitted himself that he excels when he plays a defensive game and isn't as effective when he is thrust into an offensive role. He was never drafted to be a scorer, management knew what kind of player he is; a checking line center. He doesn't have the play making ability and vision on the ice to be an effective 1st or 2nd line center. These types of skills don't blossom magically...

Yup. I wouldnt be surprised at all to see Keslers numbers drop if he was put into an offensive 2nd line role. His primary offensive weapon is playing on the counterattack. He couldnt finish worth shit until this year, either.

As for him "skating, shooting, and stickhandling better than most of the team", as somebody said...well I would hope so, he is a forward. But as far as forwards go, his offensive skillset is not really anything special. Sure he's decently fast, but he doesnt have great agility or control. His shot is nothing to write home about, and as far as stickhandling, he seems to do that spinorama move every time he's one on one. I would say his main offensive weapon is his strength on the puck and willingness to play a gritty style, and drive to the net. He's not going to score many highlight reel goals, he just doesnt have the finish of a goal scorer.

[rsx]

Originally Posted by jigga250

Yup. I wouldnt be surprised at all to see Keslers numbers drop if he was put into an offensive 2nd line role. His primary offensive weapon is playing on the counterattack. He couldnt finish worth shit until this year, either.

As for him "skating, shooting, and stickhandling better than most of the team", as somebody said...well I would hope so, he is a forward. But as far as forwards go, his offensive skillset is not really anything special. Sure he's decently fast, but he doesnt have great agility or control. His shot is nothing to write home about, and as far as stickhandling, he seems to do that spinorama move every time he's one on one. I would say his main offensive weapon is his strength on the puck and willingness to play a gritty style, and drive to the net. He's not going to score many highlight reel goals, he just doesnt have the finish of a goal scorer.

^^ There it is.

Kesler's points will mainly come from his sheer determination and crash the net style. High 50's at best.

[6thGear.]

the real problem lies within player development and not the players themselves. why is it that detroit can pick a nobody, a player that every other team in the nhl wouldn't bother with and turn them into a star? other than the twins, what pick has the canucks turned into a star? a game changer? none. a player is nothing more than a solder with several weapons. someone needs to tell them how and when to use those weapons properly. a player that gets drafted means they have that shot. every single one of them can turn into a superstar. the higher they get picked, the lesser work needs to be done on them.

once you make it to the nhl, the role picks you, not the other way around. in keslers case, he was a proven goal scorer is whole life, but management wanted him as a checker. was that a bad thing? argue all you want. but if gillis dangled kesler out as bait, do you think every team in the league wouldn't bid for him? you'd be stupid to think no one wants him. his job is a 3rd line center. he's a solid one at that. role players are your core players, and kesler is a role player. he knows what he's supposed to do and he goes out and does it. so what if he will only be a 40 point player. does that make him a shit player?

datsuyk and zetterburg, their roles from day 1 was to be scorers. they weren't picked to be checkers. detroits problem at the time was to find offensive players and have them be the "new" detriot red wings. at the time kesler was drafted, offense wasnt in the mind of the managment, defense was. and kesler fit the bill. different situations, different outcomes, but the results end up the same. these 3 became role players for their teams











fuck, i can't wait till hockey starts.

[dim_sum]

my 2 cents, but the wings have an unbeleivable scouting staff... it seems like they draft quality players no matter what round they choose in... don't forget that edler was THEIR pick that we stole... adn he was playing in a really shitty league

[iwantaskyline]

Originally Posted by 6thGear.

the real problem lies within player development and not the players themselves. why is it that detroit can pick a nobody, a player that every other team in the nhl wouldn't bother with and turn them into a star? other than the twins, what pick has the canucks turned into a star? a game changer? none. a player is nothing more than a solder with several weapons. someone needs to tell them how and when to use those weapons properly. a player that gets drafted means they have that shot. every single one of them can turn into a superstar. the higher they get picked, the lesser work needs to be done on them.

once you make it to the nhl, the role picks you, not the other way around. in keslers case, he was a proven goal scorer is whole life, but management wanted him as a checker. was that a bad thing? argue all you want. but if gillis dangled kesler out as bait, do you think every team in the league wouldn't bid for him? you'd be stupid to think no one wants him. his job is a 3rd line center. he's a solid one at that. role players are your core players, and kesler is a role player. he knows what he's supposed to do and he goes out and does it. so what if he will only be a 40 point player. does that make him a shit player?

datsuyk and zetterburg, their roles from day 1 was to be scorers. they weren't picked to be checkers. detroits problem at the time was to find offensive players and have them be the "new" detriot red wings. at the time kesler was drafted, offense wasnt in the mind of the managment, defense was. and kesler fit the bill. different situations, different outcomes, but the results end up the same. these 3 became role players for their teams











fuck, i can't wait till hockey starts.

Player development plays a big role but I think you got it all wrong. Players like Zetterberg and Datsuyk are BORN with the skills they have. You can't teach players how to dangle or see the ice like they do. They were NOBODYS only because scouts back then looked at the player info and if the players height was under 5"10 they wouldn't bother another glance. Zetterberg was hardly a nobody, 2000–01 a year after being drafted he got hyped up when he scored 46 points in 47 games in the SEL. He'd be a 1st rounder if he was eligible still. You can thank Detroit's European scout for noticing their talent rather then their physical stature at the time which wasn't fully rounded out yet. These two players were pretty well known a year prior to their debuts in the NHL.

Ryan Kesler proven goal scorer his whole life? Are you talking about his stint in Ohio State University where he got 11 goals in 40 games? Nobody is saying Kesler is a shit player. He is a very good 3rd line checking centermen who realistically could peak as a 50 point man. But some people on this thread seem to believe he's got the ability to become a star player. He was drafted because he was a safe pick who they believed could step into the NHL right away but as a checker and pretty much thats all he is capable of. They passed on guys like Perry, Bergeron and Richards for the safe pick.

[Tim Budong]

Originally Posted by iwantaskyline

Player development plays a big role but I think you got it all wrong. Players like Zetterberg and Datsuyk are BORN with the skills they have. You can't teach players how to dangle or see the ice like they do. They were NOBODYS only because scouts back then looked at the player info and if the players height was under 5"10 they wouldn't bother another glance. Zetterberg was hardly a nobody, 2000–01 a year after being drafted he got hyped up when he scored 46 points in 47 games in the SEL. He'd be a 1st rounder if he was eligible still. You can thank Detroit's European scout for noticing their talent rather then their physical stature at the time which wasn't fully rounded out yet. These two players were pretty well known a year prior to their debuts in the NHL.

Ryan Kesler proven goal scorer his whole life? Are you talking about his stint in Ohio State University where he got 11 goals in 40 games? Nobody is saying Kesler is a shit player. He is a very good 3rd line checking centermen who realistically could peak as a 50 point man. But some people on this thread seem to believe he's got the ability to become a star player. He was drafted because he was a safe pick who they believed could step into the NHL right away but as a checker and pretty much thats all he is capable of. They passed on guys like Perry, Bergeron and Richards for the safe pick.

u said it..
Ryan Keslar is a checking centerman..where as Zetteberg and Datsyuk can score goals. SOOOOOO fuck all the "hockey knowledge" from you and me and realistically ask yourself, do you understand the game of hockey? cuz a player such as keslar and what he does is exactly what ALOT of teams lack, a good go to forward to play against the top lines night after night. I couldnt give a shit how many goals Zetteberg or Datsyuk brings to the table, they can be trigger happy all night, but its just not OFFENSE that wins you hockey games, its a combination of everything. So are you gonna bash on the sedins now cuz they are first rounders and their point per game stat doesnt satisfy you?

The Detroit Red Wings are champions because they have the complete puzzle, hmm...who on the Red Wings is what Keslar is for Vancouver...Kris Draper, defensive forward, such as click! Ryan Keslar. You thinking Ryan Keslar is suppose to score wayy more than his numbers show isnt thinking the "complete" hockey team. Of course, Pavel Datsyuk didnt win the Selke by scoring goals, but hes one of the few "gifted" guys who can play and see both perspectives of the game

Another player known to be the defensive forward role is Samuel Pahlsson from the ducks. Many teams would LOVE to have this guy on their team.

We can have guys like Gretzky from his oiler days, Sidney Crosby, Ovechkin, Vinny LeClavier, Dany Heatley, Jason Spezza, any top rated goal scorer in the league, they score goals cuz they play the role as a guy to finish the job, im sure many can name ppl who score like these big guns, but realistically, how many shutdown forwards can you name throughout the league?

i mainly want you to answer this question before you go on and criticize ppl in the thread who have contributed opinions and laughs around. I can tell you people straight up that the three i mentioned are the three that jumps into my head with the exception of Ryan Keslar cuz he plays in this town we live in, but around the rest of the league? These guys dont get noticed that often unless they can score.

Try and explain to me why Ryan Keslar's name was put out there amongst trade talks and rumors during the last trade deadline? i know alot of them is bullshit, but Keslar can bring his style of play to a team thats really hard to find in this day and age.

anyways..to iwantaskyline this thread is like...10x more educated and smarter than the whole canucks forum, we dont like bandwagoners, and on revscene, topics such as this need facts and reasoning to back up ALL opinions or else u become revscene idol like 14dollaballa or that dude in the summer gangsta fashion thread. hell hyde is one of them

dont call out hondaracer without knowing what he contributes here, hes one of the more educated hockey guys on the forum. i may not know the guy, but you can tell the difference between the "hockey fans who thinks goals and offense mean everything" vs the "educated in the HOCKEY CULTURE and COMPLETE picture in all things shinny




on a side note..b4 tix do go on sale..a big "FUCK YOU" to scalpers who will 100% for sure charge stupid amounts of money for the Trevor Linden number retirement game and RUIN the experience for ALL true canuck fans out there

that is all

[trip]

yea ^

how the fux am i spose to get tix.. shit...

[Noir]

Originally Posted by darthchilli

on a side note..b4 tix do go on sale..a big "FUCK YOU" to scalpers who will 100% for sure charge stupid amounts of money for the Trevor Linden number retirement game and RUIN the experience for ALL true canuck fans out there

Fuck Yeah. Actually I wouldn't be surprised if they charged more than 100%, those fuckin' opportunistic bastards. We can see linden alright, those bastards are just going to make us pay

[Tim Budong]

nd yes..
its fucking 441am, have quiz at 1030, but this thread had me goin..so readin a couple pages back as well

again..directing this to iwantaskyline...

Trevor Linden was the "true captain" of the canucks for many years. His leadership role is what inspires. the leader is NOT LUONGO. Trevor Linden wasnt the president of teh NHLPA representing teh players for no reason either. and what was said before i say again..

Captains dont need to put up big numbers. They need to be leaders, role models such like that. which is why someone like crosby doesnt really deserve captaincy in his 2nd nhl career, then again..his move was a marketing thing, im gonn stick to that..anyways.

numbers mean shit if u can lead off a team!

[Hot Karl]

as a kid from a hockey family who played AAA midget. i completely agree with iwantaskylines' posts on this page.

that's years of hockey, coaches, summer camps and all that shit talking. strangely enough the old teammates i still see/talk to feel very similarly about kesler.

so i'm just wondering, actually hoping that the detractors are real hockey players too. then i could ask them to explain it to me, because me and EVERY single person i know with real hockey experience feels very much like iwantaskyline does.

that can't be a coincidence. can it?