History follow-up: Two boys died following horrific crash on Hwy 1 (verdict reached)

[cookies]

i guess this is the new risk you take when purchasing a minivan. next family might want to opt for the civic instead.

[Gh0stRider]

Rip

[SumAznGuy]

Originally Posted by Soundy

Also a fact is that a FULLY-loaded minivan is going to be somewhat different than your Civic. Greater load, different steering geometry, entirely different steering design, means you can't readily compare the two. Some vehicles, it's nearly impossible to turn the wheel with the engine off.

Of course, they could have just got out and pushed the van off the road... I mean, it's easy to do that in your Civic, so it must be easy in a loaded minivan too, right?

Really?!?!?! I didn't know that in this case all 8 passengers sit right on top of the front wheels.
Before you go off and sprout all that smart sounding stuff, do you even know what difference greater load, different steering geometry, different steering design means on a passenger vehicle?
In this case, the 8 passengers sit behind the firewall. Very little, if any, of the weight of the passengers sits overtop the steering wheels. Again, if the car is moving, even if you have 1000 lb weight over the steering wheels, the steering is still going to be light. It's just the way it is and you cannot argue it.
Different steering geometry? What does that mean? How does it affect the effort it takes to steer a moving vehicle? When you talk about steering geometry, you talk about the caster/camber/toe and all the linkages that enable the car to turn. Sure you can say comparing an Civic to a mini-van is like comparing apples to oranges, but the same can be said the same 2 vechicles where the only difference is in the alignment settings, when the said vehicle is STOPPED. When the vehicle is in motion, the steering is effortless.
Entirely different steering design? Last I checked, all cars turned by turning the wheels in the direction you want to go. Only tanks use a different system where one side goes forward while the other side goes reverse to steer the vehicle.

You should have stopped when you were ahead, when I gave you credit for seeming like a smart guy.

Other than sawing on the steering faster than the powersteering pump can handle at low speeds, or something breaking and jamming the steering wheel, a moving vehicle's steering will stay light enough to manuever the vehicle.

Let's break this down to the next level. Steering wheel effort is a function of tire grip, and gearing in the steering rack. All things being equal with the alignment being the only variable, a car who's camber setting is the closest to zero will have the highest level of effort to turn the steering wheel due to the amount of contact patch of the tires with the ground.
Let's try this again. All things being equal, but one vehicle has 245 race tires vs the same vehicle with 175 snow tires. Can you guess which car needs a higher level of steering input and why?
Lastly, a base model Civic with a manual steering rack and the same Civic with a powersteering rack, but has the powersteering belt disconnected. Can you guess why the manual rack is easier to steer than the car with the powersteering rack but disabled powersteering, when both cars are parked? Same thing for the same car, one with a 350mm steering wheel and one with a 280 mm steering wheel?

[Noir]

^^^ I think you have to take into account the factor of shift in steering weight when it comes to steering a car that just lost power & power steering.

I have driven a 91 MR2 w/o power steering no problem. But have you had a car w/ power steering just die on you? The sudden change makes it feel like steering is as heavy as a rock. Not to mention, we're male in our 20's and the driver in question is a female and I'm assuming 40's.

[thumper]

saw pics of the crash in a chinese newspaper and it shows the mivivan to be a late model toyota sienna. the DRLs were on, but the wipers were stopped midswipe across the windshield. maybe something got messed up in the crash but if the DRLs were on that means the car has to be out of park/no ebrake, but for the wipers to stop like that would mean no ignition...?

[Soundy]

Originally Posted by cookies

i guess this is the new risk you take when purchasing a minivan. next family might want to opt for the civic instead.

Yeah, you try fitting 8 people in a Civic

[Soundy]

Originally Posted by SumAznGuy

R
Before you go off and sprout all that smart sounding stuff, blah blah blah blah...

Wow, you're so SMRT, you have totally pwned me!

You're making all manner of assumptions about one vehicle based on your experience with another, and assumptions about one driver based on your own alleged driving skillz. Your argument is a non-starter. You fail in the most epic way.

[Soundy]

Originally Posted by thumper

saw pics of the crash in a chinese newspaper and it shows the mivivan to be a late model toyota sienna. the DRLs were on, but the wipers were stopped midswipe across the windshield. maybe something got messed up in the crash but if the DRLs were on that means the car has to be out of park/no ebrake, but for the wipers to stop like that would mean no ignition...?

It was reported that the cab was filling with smoke, which could indicate an electrical fire, which could easily affect the wipers but not the DRLs, depending on what circuit was burning. Could be a lot of other things too - it's a stretch, but maybe the wiper motor fried and the smoke from it got pulled in through the air intake.

[SumAznGuy]

Originally Posted by Soundy

Wow, you're so SMRT, you have totally pwned me!

You're making all manner of assumptions about one vehicle based on your experience with another, and assumptions about one driver based on your own alleged driving skillz. Your argument is a non-starter. You fail in the most epic way.

More like you like the feeling of superiority by pwning the noobs who don't know shat and cannot prove you wrong.

You come into this thread and sprout off diahrea out of your keyboard and I call you on it. In fact, not only do I call you on it, I prove you wrong. I made you look stupid, something that you are not use to around here, or even in real life.

OMG. And now that you know that you are wrong, without any logical correct argument against me, you use the lamest shit to try to recover some dignity

It doesn't matter what car, all cars use the same basic components as part of the steering. But hey, feel free to prove me wrong.

[ericthehalfbee]

Originally Posted by SumAznGuy

And have you ever had a transmission lock up on you? Do you know someone that has? How do YOU know that a broken transmission will lock up? How much about mechanics do YOU know?
So please tell me. How does a broken transmission lock the drive wheels?

Also, how does a broken tranny have anything to do with this accident?

Here you go, smart guy. 10 seconds on Google came up with this one...


NHTSA Campaign Number: 04V176000 www.nhtsa.dot.gov

Manufacturer AMERICAN HONDA MOTOR CO.
Recall Date: 04/15/2004
Potential Number Of Units Affected: 1099796

Description POWER TRAIN:AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION
Summary ON SOME MINI VANS, SPORT UTILITY AND PASSENGER VEHICLES, CERTAIN OPERATING CONDITIONS CAN RESULT IN HEAT BUILD-UP BETWEEN THE COUNTERSHAFT AND SECONDARY SHAFT SECOND GEARS IN THE AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION, EVENTUALLY LEADING TO GEAR TOOTH CHIPPING OR GEAR BREAKAGE.
Consequence GEAR FAILURE COULD RESULT IN TRANSMISSION LOCKUP, WHICH COULD RESULT IN A CRASH.


If you can't understand how a broken transmission can lock the wheels, then there's no point discussing "mechanics" with you anymore, since you clearly don't know what you're talking about.

[ChaKo]

Originally Posted by SumAznGuy

OMG. And now that you know that you are wrong, without any logical correct argument against me, you use the lamest shit to try to recover some dignity

It doesn't matter what car, all cars use the same basic components as part of the steering. But hey, feel free to prove me wrong.

you continue to overlook one of the original points soundy brought up. regardless of how many cars you've driven without power steering, being a male, you naturally have the advantage over a mom in her forties. coupled with the fact that she suddenly loses her power steering and is caught off guard, i don't think she stood much of a chance. she may have been waiting for the car to slow down before pulling over, but within the last few dying seconds, wasn't able to gain an advantage over the wheel. of course, it's all speculation at best, but you seem to be eager to rule it out completely.

[Soundy]

Originally Posted by SumAznGuy

It doesn't matter what car, all cars use the same basic components as part of the steering. But hey, feel free to prove me wrong.

Okay.

All cars do NOT use the same "basic components". For starters, there are two very different types of systems commonly used: rack-and-pinion and recirculation-ball designs, each with its own advantages and disadvantages. From there, every manufacturer has their own variations on the designs. Some deal with power loss better than others. I've driven vehicles where you'd hardly notice the difference; I've driven vehicles were the steering becomes almost impossible to turn if you lose power, even while rolling.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/steering.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steerin...orm_and_sector

In addition, there are variations on power steering itself:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steering#Power_steering

Originally Posted by ChaKo

you continue to overlook one of the original points soundy brought up. regardless of how many cars you've driven without power steering, being a male, you naturally have the advantage over a mom in her forties. coupled with the fact that she suddenly loses her power steering and is caught off guard, i don't think she stood much of a chance. she may have been waiting for the car to slow down before pulling over, but within the last few dying seconds, wasn't able to gain an advantage over the wheel. of course, it's all speculation at best, but you seem to be eager to rule it out completely.

Don't forget, many areas of the highway are also rutted from the heavy trucks; the ruts can make it harder to move out of a lane, especially if you lose your power steering. Incorrect alignment can make it worse still.

As you say, since we don't have any of this information, it's all speculation, but I think it's clear, there are LOTS of perfectly valid reasons that the driver of the minivan didn't or COULDN'T get it over to the shoulder in these circumstances.

[ericthehalfbee]

I think she could have had enough strength to steer the vehicle even if the power steering failed - at least while moving. Provided there were no problems with the power steering.

Interesting thing happened to me on a BMW 3 series while I was doing brakes. Car on hoist, tried to turn the wheel by hand to get better access to the caliper bolts and I couldn't move it. I thought I removed the key and the ignition steering lock had engaged. Went to the steering wheel and it was very hard to turn. Fired the car up and it worked fine. Turned the car off and the wheel locked up. Dis-connected the tie-rods from the knuckle to check if they or the ball joints were seized - they moved fine. Turned out the rack was faulty. Owner didn't notice it because when the engine was running the power steering assist overcame the "stiffness" in the seized rack. Of course, the power steering pump was noisy since it was working much harder, but the owner thought he simply needed new fluid.


SumAznGuy: It's really quite amazing what you can come up with when a) you're a Red Seal mechanic and b) actually work on enough cars to see all sorts of odd problems.

[fuhkyu]

Okay, this may be a stupid and offtopic question/comment but I thought that only airplanes had the "black box"? Does it come standard in all cars ?

On topic- RIP to the family, I don't know why everyone is arguing over what the drivers should have done, could have done and didn't do. The sad truth is that people have lost their lives and as a result of that we have several members debating on who is at fault?!

Yes someone is at fault, but none of us were there to place blame on such person. Some people react differently depending on the situation, the driver of the van may have panicked and didn't know what to do - no one on this board knows for sure. As for stating what should have been done and all the arguments about people being in the HOV lane is a lost cause.

RIP, such a young age and is truly saddening.

[Corey Darling]

Perhaps the steering lock engaged at some point as a result of the apparent electircal failure.

This might explain why the driver couldn't move the van off to the shoulder, the wheel was locked.

[Soundy]

Originally Posted by fuhkyu

Okay, this may be a stupid and offtopic question/comment but I thought that only airplanes had the "black box"? Does it come standard in all cars ?

Almost all newer vehicles have them. They're pretty basic - they monitor and record the last 30-60s of things like speed, RPMs, acceleration or deceleration, brake use, seatbelt use, etc. They can tell investigators things like how fast the car was going in its last moments, and whether the brakes were applied immediately before a sudden deceleration.

Some further reading:
http://media.mgnetwork.com/blackbox/
http://www.clickondetroit.com/automo...78/detail.html
http://www.autoblog.com/2006/08/07/n...ive-black-box/

[Soundy]

Originally Posted by Corey Darling

Perhaps the steering lock engaged at some point as a result of the apparent electircal failure.

This might explain why the driver couldn't move the van off to the shoulder, the wheel was locked.

Another possibility is that in the panic of smoke filling the cabin, the driver's instinct was to turn off the ignition... which also would have engaged the steering lock. After all, it's drilled into us that one of the first things you should do after a crash is to turn off the ignition.

[ChaKo]

Originally Posted by fuhkyu

Yes someone is at fault, but none of us were there to place blame on such person. Some people react differently depending on the situation, the driver of the van may have panicked and didn't know what to do - no one on this board knows for sure. As for stating what should have been done and all the arguments about people being in the HOV lane is a lost cause.

RIP, such a young age and is truly saddening.

hardly a lost cause, this is one of the reasons rs exists, for us discuss! and maybe a few rs members, including myself, can learn from the discussions in case our cars do end up breaking down on the highway.

[Alphamale]

Originally Posted by Soundy

Another possibility is that in the panic of smoke filling the cabin, the driver's instinct was to turn off the ignition... which also would have engaged the steering lock. After all, it's drilled into us that one of the first things you should do after a crash is to turn off the ignition.

Hardly, I remember when I was in my accident, first thing I did was try to start my car! Hahahaha...


I think that's what I did.

[SumAznGuy]

Originally Posted by ChaKo

being a male, you naturally have the advantage over a mom in her forties.

And how do you know I am not a 100 lbs skinny as fuck asian kid?

[ChaKo]

educated guess? you've talked about having a family before. you play hockey and was willing to drop gloves against soundy's boss. the mom never had a chance.

[ziegs2020]

Any updates?

[ericthehalfbee]

^ None, except that SumAznGuy has shut up after being proven wrong.

[SumAznGuy]

Originally Posted by ericthehalfbee

^ None, except that SumAznGuy has shut up after being proven wrong.

I figured there was no point to argue on the internet, especially since you think you know it all. but since you asked.

SumAznGuy: It's really quite amazing what you can come up with when a) you're a Red Seal mechanic and b) actually work on enough cars to see all sorts of odd problems

Woo, a red seal mechanic. And that makes you better than everyone else because......

You actually work on enough cars to see all sort of problems. So a jack of all trades and a master of none. Right.... I got it there.

Let me give you a cookie since you just proved to everyone on the internet that a) you know how to use google b) that you worked on a lot of cars without specifying how many cars, or years that you worked in the business.

Here you go, smart guy. 10 seconds on Google came up with this one...

NHTSA Campaign Number: 04V176000 www.nhtsa.dot.gov

Manufacturer AMERICAN HONDA MOTOR CO.
Recall Date: 04/15/2004
Potential Number Of Units Affected: 1099796

Description POWER TRAIN:AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION
Summary ON SOME MINI VANS, SPORT UTILITY AND PASSENGER VEHICLES, CERTAIN OPERATING CONDITIONS CAN RESULT IN HEAT BUILD-UP BETWEEN THE COUNTERSHAFT AND SECONDARY SHAFT SECOND GEARS IN THE AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION, EVENTUALLY LEADING TO GEAR TOOTH CHIPPING OR GEAR BREAKAGE.
Consequence GEAR FAILURE COULD RESULT IN TRANSMISSION LOCKUP, WHICH COULD RESULT IN A CRASH.


If you can't understand how a broken transmission can lock the wheels, then there's no point discussing "mechanics" with you anymore, since you clearly don't know what you're talking about.

So you took 10 seconds to google this and another 5 minutes to think of a good comment to add on, yet you ignored my most basic question. Explain to use how a broken transmission can lock up the wheels. I understand how a transmission works, but I asked you to explain it so everyone else does. But since you evaded that topic by stating twice how I don't know shit and it is a waste of time, well that is just plain avoiding the topic.

I asked you "how many times have YOU seen the wheels lock up due to a transmission failure", and you go and show us you know how to use google and you show the e-world how big your e-penis is. Well good for you. But you still haven't answered my basic question, which I repeated again just in case you missed it the second time around.

[RSXmiloRSx]

Originally Posted by hi5-ive

RIP..

If you are driving alone, GET THE FUCK OUT OF HOV LANE

what's it matter if it was 2+ people or only 1 person in the car? but yes waaaay too young, and aren't there time limits on HOV lane?