Surgeon must pay former NHL prospect nearly $1.5 million in damages

[jeffh]

Originally Posted by mx703

ARE YOU EFFING SERIOUS???

you my friend are either the dumbest smart person ever or just the dumbest person ever.

no im not dumb, but i am one of those hard working mediocre people that doesnt understand why some chump that did fuckall but play hockey in highchool gets to make 10+ mil a year for playing a game. dont get me wrong i understand the dedication it takes to get to that level, and i can respect the amount of work that gets put in, but thats what you get for putting all your eggs in one basket.
get over it, use the 1.5 mil to pay for all the secondary education you want, become a lawyer or a doctor and make your fortune some other way

its not like hes a parapalegic and cant work atall for the rest of his life

[achiam]

Originally Posted by jeffh

no im not dumb, but i am one of those hard working mediocre people that doesnt understand why some chump that did fuckall but play hockey in highchool gets to make 10+ mil a year for playing a game. dont get me wrong i understand the dedication it takes to get to that level, and i can respect the amount of work that gets put in, but thats what you get for putting all your eggs in one basket.
get over it, use the 1.5 mil to pay for all the secondary education you want, become a lawyer or a doctor and make your fortune some other way

its not like hes a parapalegic and cant work atall for the rest of his life

I apologize ahead of time, but you've completely missed the point.
It is not up to anyone's values to determine the remuneration of any profession - this is the job of a free economy which is governed by the open market place.

Professional sports players are paid X salary because they are crucial to allowing the team to win. At the end of the day, the real winners are rarely the players, but the team owners. Although you may balk at multimillion dollar deals, the fact remains that the owners/shareholders of the teams are earning far more, which is why they pay the players that which they demand.
The same principle governs all other professions.

Then of course, there is the argument that certain labor unions have exercised their striking power to increase their member's wages excessively to the point that meritocracy is undermined (e.g. some Longshoremen in the docks earn far more than many physicians, which I think is ridiculous, given that most people would be able to perform their tasks, but that a far lesser % of the population would be able to perform surgery to a satisfactory degree, or complete a medical education).

The only valid question in doubt, is how to accurately gauge the subject's potential lost earnings, which is clearly impossible to predict.

[jeffh]

i understand the letter of the law, and what the renumeration should be based on, it does not however mean i need to agree with it, and my disagreeing doesnt make me dumb by any stretch of the word.

my comment is directed at peoples assement of the human aspect, saying his life is ruined.
its not. he now has a 1.5 million dollar head start on a regular life with the rest of us joe blows

[Philly74]

Originally Posted by InvisibleSoul

I don't think that's a safe assumption to make.

I mean... out of all the people that are drafted, how many actually make it to the NHL? I don't know the answer, but I'm assuming it's a fairly small percentage.

Yes you're right but atleast it gives him the confidence and motive to work hard and give it his all when he's on the ice so he can have a chance to play in the NHL.

If you develop into a impact player there's no way a team will not gave you a chance to play.

[GLOW]

Originally Posted by jeffh

no im not dumb, but i am one of those hard working mediocre people that doesnt understand why some chump that did fuckall but play hockey in highchool gets to make 10+ mil a year for playing a game. dont get me wrong i understand the dedication it takes to get to that level, and i can respect the amount of work that gets put in, but thats what you get for putting all your eggs in one basket.
get over it, use the 1.5 mil to pay for all the secondary education you want, become a lawyer or a doctor and make your fortune some other way

its not like hes a parapalegic and cant work atall for the rest of his life

lets say a med student on the verge of graduating and getting a great job that suffers some brain injury due to a doctor mis-diagnosing some ailment he suffers and can no longer have the mental capacity to think/perform as a doctor, but can only do say mundane tasks and work at some starbucks or something... SOL on him for putting his eggs in 1 basket and blowing a decade of his life in med school?

i dont get your logic. Doctors, like professional athletes, no average joe on the street can walk through the door and do what they do, that's why they get paid what they get paid. in both cases, it was their dream and goal, and x amount of time was spent to achieve that goal.

that kids future as a pro hockey player was ruined. his life may not be ruined as he is still alive (though not healthy), but his life as he knew it is gone forever.

[misteranswer]

Originally Posted by The Devil's Apprentice

Just to give you an example:

Drafted: Year: 1999 Round: 7 Pick: 210, Red Wings

I'm pretty sure you know who..If you don't know what it means then.. LOL


He might have been an all-star, might have been a normal NHL player or might have been a dud. I'm pretty sure even if he makes it on an NHL team bench-warming, he'll make more then 1.5mil in his lifetime

I can name even more
6th round, 113th overall 1989
10th round, 199th overall 1983
9th round, 227th overall 1993
9th round, 217th overall 1994
9th round, 219th overall 1994
6th round, 171th overall 1998

imo, the odds you are using in the present value of his expected salary is too high.

[InvisibleSoul]

Originally Posted by The Devil's Apprentice

Just to give you an example:

Drafted: Year: 1999 Round: 7 Pick: 210, Red Wings

I'm pretty sure you know who..If you don't know what it means then.. LOL


He might have been an all-star, might have been a normal NHL player or might have been a dud. I'm pretty sure even if he makes it on an NHL team bench-warming, he'll make more then 1.5mil in his lifetime

What is that supposed to be an example of? That someone who got drafted very late can still end up with a extremely successful NHL career? Nobody said you couldn't. The argument is out of 211 players that get drafted each year, only a small number of those ever make it to the NHL. Yes, on the flip side, some people who get drafted really late make it to the NHL while some who get drafted top 10 do not... but your example is pointless here. The bottom line is just because he got drafted, more likely than not he may not have ever played in the NHL.

And if you want to go even further, even undrafted players can go on to successful NHL careers.

You don't have to look any further than a local example.

Alex Burrows was never drafted... but obviously he's doing more than fine now, and just signed a 4-year deal at $2M each.

But once again, that's not the point.

[Hot Karl]

1.5mil is reasonable imo.

it's probably what he would earn over a career of playing in the minors or overseas. with a little extra on top. he'd probably get 100k/year max if he became a "star" in the minors or overseas.

[HonestTea]

Originally Posted by misteranswer

I can name even more
6th round, 113th overall 1989
10th round, 199th overall 1983
9th round, 227th overall 1993
9th round, 217th overall 1994
9th round, 219th overall 1994
6th round, 171th overall 1998

imo, the odds you are using in the present value of his expected salary is too high.

Not totally, I'm sure he'll be able to make more then 1.5mil in his lifetime playing hockey.

The 1.5mil/year is just a generalization at how much Hockey players make..

So the 1.5mil settlement is basically a slap in the face..

Originally Posted by InvisibleSoul

What is that supposed to be an example of? That someone who got drafted very late can still end up with a extremely successful NHL career? Nobody said you couldn't. The argument is out of 211 players that get drafted each year, only a small number of those ever make it to the NHL. Yes, on the flip side, some people who get drafted really late make it to the NHL while some who get drafted top 10 do not... but your example is pointless here. The bottom line is just because he got drafted, more likely than not he may not have ever played in the NHL.

And if you want to go even further, even undrafted players can go on to successful NHL careers.

You don't have to look any further than a local example.

Alex Burrows was never drafted... but obviously he's doing more than fine now, and just signed a 4-year deal at $2M each.

But once again, that's not the point.

It's suppose to be an example of a guy that went in the 7th round(just like the OP's case) can be able to make well over 1.5mil per year.

How is it pointless? Hes been drafted already, worse comes to worse, he bench-warms on the NHL team and/or plays for an AHL team. Do you honestly think that he'd rather have a sure-thing(1.5mil) in his bank-account or be able to play in the AHL/NHL, even if hes not guaranteed that amount?

It's not just black and white. Their are many variables in this situation.

He's still young(19) and developing, statistics do show that he won't be an all-star but anything over 0% is a possibility. How can you rule that out and automatically assume he won't make 1.5mil?

So in your opinion, you think that 1.5mil is fair?

It doesn't effect me or you but I'm defending my opinion.

[misteranswer]

Originally Posted by The Devil's Apprentice

Not totally, I'm sure he'll be able to make more then 1.5mil in his lifetime playing hockey.

The 1.5mil/year is just a generalization at how much Hockey players make..

So the 1.5mil settlement is basically a slap in the face..

What would you say is the probability of him making an NHL team?

2%? 5%? 10%?

Let's say it's 10% and he somehow could have managed to get salaries with a present value of $10 million. That's $1 million. Now let's subtract what he could be making otherwise. Let's say he gets some mediocre job that pays him $40,000 a year during the time he could have been in the NHL. Let's also say the average NHL career is 10 years, instead of playing in the NHL, he's making $40,000 a year for 10 years. That's a PV of maybe about $330,000. Of course his minor league contract would probably negate this

He's getting an roughly $800,000 for lost wages, although it hasn't been finalized.

[jeffh]

Originally Posted by GLOW

lets say a med student on the verge of graduating and getting a great job
blah blah blah.....

he didnt get a brain injury, and he is not incapacitated from taking one of thousands of other careers that are capable of making him 100K plus a year and living comfortably like everyone else. this is more comparable to a hand model getting a burn, and not being able to model anymore, or a fireman getting a back injury so he cant do his job anymore. both scenarious the perosn is able to get a normal job like everyone else and carry on with life

just because he is some wannaba hockey douche doesnt mean he gets a free pass to a fabulous lifestyle.

i have got arthritis in my hands developing at 22 from my 10 years of competetive bagpiping, this doesnt stop me from selling parts and making a living to sustain myself, even tho i wont ever be able to play at the worlds now because my hands ache from practice my life doesnt suck, and im not suing anyone over it

and i would compare my hour and a half a day practice for 10 years strait with 5 summers devoted to bagpipping to a sport, even if not everyone of you keyboard comandos agrees

[InvisibleSoul]

Originally Posted by The Devil's Apprentice

It's suppose to be an example of a guy that went in the 7th round(just like the OP's case) can be able to make well over 1.5mil per year.

And Alex Burrow was never drafted and will make $2M per year. So what?

Just because you provided an example of someone drafted in the 7th round that DID become successful doesn't validate that this guy would have made $1.5M in his career. Could he possibly have? Sure... but more likely he wouldn't have.

Do you honestly think that he'd rather have a sure-thing(1.5mil) in his bank-account or be able to play in the AHL/NHL, even if hes not guaranteed that amount?

...

He's still young(19) and developing, statistics do show that he won't be an all-star but anything over 0% is a possibility. How can you rule that out and automatically assume he won't make 1.5mil?

So in your opinion, you think that 1.5mil is fair?

That's not what we're debating. I was arguing the point that just because he was drafted does NOT necessarily mean he had a bright hockey career in front of him.

I'm also not really debating whether $1.5M is a fair assessment or not. I'm not ruling out that he could have possibly made $1.5M. But I would assume that they did the calculations and $1.5M is the number they decided would be the average representation. Sure, maybe he could have went on to have a successful career and made $4M a year, or he could have gone absolutely nowhere. Averaging it all out, they settled on $1.5M as the average outcome of a person in his situation.

[GLOW]

Originally Posted by jeffh

he didnt get a brain injury, and he is not incapacitated from taking one of thousands of other careers that are capable of making him 100K plus a year and living comfortably like everyone else. this is more comparable to a hand model getting a burn, and not being able to model anymore, or a fireman getting a back injury so he cant do his job anymore. both scenarious the perosn is able to get a normal job like everyone else and carry on with life

just because he is some wannaba hockey douche doesnt mean he gets a free pass to a fabulous lifestyle.

i have got arthritis in my hands developing at 22 from my 10 years of competetive bagpiping, this doesnt stop me from selling parts and making a living to sustain myself, even tho i wont ever be able to play at the worlds now because my hands ache from practice my life doesnt suck, and im not suing anyone over it

and i would compare my hour and a half a day practice for 10 years strait with 5 summers devoted to bagpipping to a sport, even if not everyone of you keyboard comandos agrees

the focus of my previous post was the time spent to achieve the goal, i.e. med school, b/c you noted earlier that it was his own fault for putting his eggs in one basket. to me, that's total BS b/c in any job/craft you choose, you must put time and effort - a part of your life to accomplish that goal. a lot of good jobs out there require time and effort, either school or training.

I agree, he shouldn't get a free pass at a fabulous lifestyle. But he should get some sort of compensation. As should you if your arthritis was caused by a doctor's negligence, which caused me to no longer be able to competitively play the bagpipes, after all the time you put into it. Not to mention the affect on your quality of life due to arthritis.

[b0unce. [?]]

1.5 million clearly not enough to make up for his potential career loss..

isnt entry level sign like 800k?
regardless if he sprouted into a pro nhler, his hockey life/career is ruined.

[hotjoint]

shitty deal

[Azn_Match]

jeffh:

We understand that his life is not completely ruined; however, from what you've been saying, it seems like you think that his quality of life will be the same as if he did not get injured. Please correct me if I'm wrong about this assessment.

Seeing how you understand the damages in which arthritis can cause then you would understand what tasks he's limited to. You have to remember that they way he got arthritis IS NOT the same way you got it. HE DIDN'T DEVELOP IT. IT WAS IMPOSED ONTO HIM. He got it from a faulty surgical screw and not from natural degeneration of the cartilage. The pain he suffers from will be chronic and will only get worse as he ages much like yours. Using his arm on the side of the injury would be extremely difficult. Simple tasks would be challenging. Also no NO AMOUNT OF REHAB WILL FIX THIS PROBLEM. Arthritis is a degenerative disease that only gets worse. IT MAY ALSO LEAD TO DISABILTY. In no way am I saying you have it better, but he definitely will be suffering much like you.

This is just the physical aspects. Let's not forget about the mental aspects from this situation. He will most likely be depressed for a while, but being an athlete and with the right support network he should be able to get through it; however, there is no guarantee. His so called "ray of light/hope" was literally taken away from him. Roughly on 3% of all athletes make it professionally. He was considered in that 3%. He had to watch himself slowly play himself out of his dream and career. Let's say he didn't make the NHL. He still has a life playing hockey in the WHL, ECHL, In Europe and Russia. There still was a future in hockey for him. You also have to factor in that no one believed him when he was on the Blazers. Can you even imagine what it feels like to have the people around you not believe you? I do. I injured my back when i was 16 and my volleyball coach, when I was in grade 11, did not believe me when I aggravated my back again during a warm in a game. He thought I was faking it. The injured resulted in me missing the rest of the season and spoiling my chance of swimming at the high school provincials.

Let's look at your example. When you found out you couldn't competitively play the bagpipes anymore, I'm sure you were devastated. However, since you're a competitor and I'm sure you have a strong social network, you were able to overcome this. The major difference is, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that you cannot make a career from playing bagpipes. I'm sure you can perform here and there but to support yourself and possibly a family on it would be a bit far fetched. You never intended to play bagpipes to make a living. You had already invested you other free time to do whatever it is you're doing now. UNLESS you're part of a touring group or prestige band that gets bookings on a weekly basis, then I don't think it's quite possible to be a professional bagpiper for life.

To address your "all eggs in one basket" comment, how do you know he doesn't have a back up plan? How do you know he wasn't planning on having an education if he didn't make a team? There a chance you were right and he didn't have know, but there's also the chance he did have a back up plan.
What if his back up plan was ruined by this injury? what if he wanted to work in the trades? What if he wanted a career that would involve usage of his arms?
CLEARLY you didn't think about this when you make your assessment; however, in your defense there are people here that clearly didn't think about the complete scope of this story.

Yes you are correct that there are many other jobs out there that can earn him a lot of money. But what you don't understand is he's not playing hockey for the money. At that age they play for the love of the game. How do i know that? If you've every watched a junior hockey game AND you understand hockey on any level, you'll see what I mean. It's only when you make it big, or when you need to support your family, that hockey becomes about money. He wanted to play hockey for the rest of his life, much like how you wanted to play bagpipes for as long as you can. I thought that maybe you would even understand this extremely simple connection.

Your assessment isn't unreasonable, but it definitely lacks any sort of sympathy and detailed analysis. Your current analysis is extremely shallow and doesn't take into account any sort of variables. I do agree that some of these analogies used here were not the best.

I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm sure this kid has a future ahead of him but you have to realize that it's going to be extremely difficult for him.


Also I don't understand why you would be calling him a douchebag wannabe hockey player. Insulting the person does not make your "argument" more convincing

How is he a douche?
Is it because he sued the doctor that destroyed his shoulder?
Is it because he thinks his life is ruined (which was never mentioned in the article)

How is he a wannabe hockey player?
I'm a wannabe hockey player.
My friend is a good hockey player.
He's an above average hockey player.
Bobby Orr was great player
Wayne Gretzky was a legendary player.

so please explain to everyone why he's douche wannabe hockey player.
(if you're just trolling through this thread then I just pity your existence)

I agree with you that he shouldn't be entitled to a large sum of money in which he doesn't have to work for the rest of his living years; however, he should be compensated for this physical and emotional damages. I think 1.5 million dollar is a fair assessment.

It is true his life is not completely ruined and that he should just kill himself, but you make it sound like he being a wimp about this and that's it is all his fault.
Is it his fault for being good at hockey?
Is it his fault for dreaming to play pro hockey?
Is it his fault that he got injured?

You're definitely correct in saying some other people's assessments of this situation is exaggerated but your assessment is also lacking. Most of RS has a problem with coming up with a decent argument but there are some here that know what they're talking about. You're not one of them, but you're closer than most.

You're right. He does have some sort of future ahead of him. It would be up to him on whether he can overcome this barrier. He's definitely not the only one that has gone through this, but it wouldn't hurt for you to have some empathy for the guy. He had to watch his dream being slowly shattered by the hands of another.

If you even understand what an athlete has to go through to become a professional then you would understand why this situation is so bad for that kid.

Think about it.