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05-11-2009, 01:58 PM
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#1 | | My homepage has been set to RS
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| Are Shift Paddles for pussies?
http://blogs.edmunds.com/roadtests/2...imps.html#more Quote:
2008 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution X MR: Are Shift Paddles for Wimps?
It's hard to know whether a dual-clutch automated manual transmission is a high-performance gearbox or just a more fuel-efficient automatic. And even after the introduction in the last year of dual-clutch transmissions from BMW, Mitsubishi and Porsche, there's still no resolution of the question.
When BMW introduced its SMG (Sequential Manual Gearbox), single-clutch automated transmission for the M3 and M5, I found myself one of the few who thought of it as an aid to quicker lap times. Everyone else whined endlessly about shift shock, which tells you that their frame of reference was the automatic transmission.
The Getrag-built, PowerShift 6DCT470 transmission in the Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution (which Mitsubishi calls Twin-Clutch Sportronic Shift Transmission, or TC-SST), is a dual-clutch design that combines the best of automatic and manual operation. In automatic mode, you just drive around and the gearbox upshifts and downshifts by itself. When you really leg the Evo in automatic mode, the transmission kicks down pretty rapidly. And this dual-clutch transmission creeps forward effectively at low speed, something that single-clutch automated manuals struggle with. (Although the latest Grazino single-clutch automated manual with Magneti Marelli software as used by the Aston Martin Vantage has been programmed with a very smart creep mode that even compensates for speed bumps in parking lots.)
Around town, you engage TC-SST's Normal mode, which shifts at relatively low rpm for good fuel economy and optimal comfort. Once you engage Sport mode, the shift points climb higher in the rpm range and the shifting action is quicker. And then the S-Sport mode executes the quickest shifts possible, so there's a detectable amount of shift shock. You can shift manually or let the electronics shift for you in any of the modes, and you can change from automatic to manual mode simply by tugging at one of the shift paddles on the steering wheel.
It's a pretty great transmission by any measure. BMW clearly thinks so as well, because this Getrag design is featured in the new M3, only in a configuration rated for the rear-wheel-drive M3's 400-hp 4.0-liter V8. And dual-clutch designs are getting even better, as those of us who have driven the new Porsche 911 Carrera with its ZF-designed PDK transmission report.
Yet there's still no resolution of the central question about the automated manual transmission. It is a performance transmission or just a unique automatic? BMW seems to regard it as performance device, while Porsche admits that its PDK option is simply a replacement for its former Tiptronic automatic. Meanwhile Mitsubishi makes available a conventional five-speed manual transmission for the Evolution, because the manual has more a substantial gearset that can withstand the anticipated torque loads in racing or when the engine is modified for more power.
In fact, our decision to not specify the dual-clutch option in our 2009 BMW M3 long-term test car had much to do with our preference for using a clutch and a shift lever, even though it's essentially a dead technology that delivers neither better performance nor acceptable utility.
You'd think that Formula 1 racing and WRC rally would bless the automated manual transmission with the right kind of image for performance-minded guys, but so far it isn't working. Maybe things will change once we see more production-derived cars with these transmissions on the race track, like the TIC Racing Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution pictured here. It's already competed in a couple of minor German races in preparation for the annual ADAC Nurburgring 24 hours, which is scheduled for May 23-24. It's going to be driven by former rally champion Uwe Nittel, Mitsubishi works driver Takako Matsui, and TIC Racing's Karsten Quadder.
So the question remains: Do real drivers use the shift lever and clutch, or are these simply the tools of ignorance -- one step removed from tractor technology -- that are bound to be ultimately replaced by magnesium shift paddles?
| What I think is true Quote:
There are a lot of people who are simply set in their old ways. There are those who think driving a manual makes them cool and somehow better than others. Then there are the highly skilled drivers who can actually consistantly manipulate the clutch pedal to make the car do whatever they want.
I have driven the Ferrari F1 box, I have driven some of the finest manual transmissions made, I have driven DSG, and traditional automatics. Only thing I don't know what is like to drive is a built automatic with high stall torque converter, which is why I am building one right now. I see merits in all of these and there is no replacing any of them.
Traditional automatic is far smoother than any others, even aging technology. Traditional automatics can be built to hold far more power than anything else here.
Manual offers the most control.
F1 and DSG are faster around a track. F1 has the advantage of being lighter and stronger of the two, but driveability is horrid in automatic mode. its so bad i only drive in manual, but as a manual you still have to get used to shifting with paddles. DSG can be strong but it will have to be larger and heavier. (like in the Bugatti Veyron and Nissan GTR) DSG is very smooth in auto, but still not as smooth as a traditional automatic and there IS lag from when you floor it to where it gets moving, so its not an ideal manual replacement in that regard. Personally, I just leave the DSG in sport and drive. Neither paddles nor shifter get much love on the track, so even open-minded me cannot get used to it.
Porsche replacing Tiptronic with PDK is perhaps OK since they have a sporting image, but it is bound to garner some criticism for not being as smooth.
The F1 belongs on Ferrari, but even they know its not ideal for anything less racey. They also have a dual clutch used on the California and the ZF traditional automatic used on Maserati's. And they offer manual, as well.
Basically it comes down to you and what you prefer and what your goals are. There is still no perfect option that does everything best. If you want the fastest most consistent lap times, then yes a manual is obsolete. Drag racing and the traditional auto is still king. Proper drifting still requires a clutch.
By huyracing
| By huyracing
Last edited by Jackygor; 05-11-2009 at 02:22 PM.
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05-11-2009, 02:15 PM
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#2 | | RS.net, helping ugly ppl have sex since 2001
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I don't think many of us are dissing the whole DSG SMG thing but having driven all sorts of them I can say one thing for sure:
SMG sucks for daily, there is no control whatsoever for creep, softest shift settings still suck. It just sucks. Imagine coming out of a parallel spot on an uphill with SMG M3....wtf the car constantly roll back and I can't creep, basically I have to look for an opening and PROUNCE on it....WTF?
I imagine the F1 is the same idea. Maybe the Aston Martin is ok if it can creep.
SMG + creep + less shifting shock is ok. The article is stupid in thinking people are comparing SMG to traditional auto, SMG has A LOT MORE shifting shock than a tranditional manual given it's not driven by some retards. That's why no journalists can stand it. Does the author genuinely think that people would whine as much if it gives out shift shock between MT and AT? It's MT shock if you dump a clutch AND SOME MORE!
The DSG, SST and PDK are a whole different idea though. In theory if you can get the engine management and throttle to help in keeping the RPM at exactly the right spot when up shifting, it should be as smooth as an auto. SST can do that in spades in automatic mode - it genuinely drives like an automatic car.
On paper, one transmission that could be performance oriented is omitted from the articles, which is the CVT gearbox. If a CVT is built to withstand the power levels engines are making, it's always going to be smooth, always going to give you max power, always going to be faster than any other shifting methods. But that's not going to happen unless we find Gundamium or some other methods in making CVT that does not slip.
We are also fed with various movies and mass media that makes shifting a manual a "cool" thing to do, even though it's a hassle on a daily basis. Watch that ricer shift 7 times down the quartermile gets your adrenaline pumping.
Automagic is alright too even if it's an old technology but the shifting logic could improve.....Also the power loss in the tq converter is something that needs to be addressed - hence all those fancy gearboxes.
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05-11-2009, 04:02 PM
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#3 | | Trollollolloing RS sine 2005
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just give it some time, it is still a pretty new technology.
it'll need time to fine tune, just like any other new technology/things that gets introduced.
nothing is perfect right off the bat.
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Originally Posted by MajinHurricane  I had some girl come into the busser station the other day trying to make out with every staff member and then pull down her pants and asked for someone to stick a dick in her (at least she shaved). | Quote:
Originally Posted by 1exotic Vtec doesn't kick in on Reverse. | Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulic Qel-Droma its like.. oh yeah oh yeah.. ohhhh yeah... OOoooOohh... why's it suddenly feel a bit better... ohhhh yeahh... ohhh...oh..fuck... it probably ripped. | | |
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05-11-2009, 05:24 PM
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#4 | | What hasn't Killed me, has made me more tolerant of RS!
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The only difference is clutch.. there will always be the automatic/tiptronic/paddle haters. But other than clutching, you're still timing your shifting, just not with the traditional knob.
It does give you more of a "racecar" feel, but maybe some people just want to sit and go fast.
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05-11-2009, 05:50 PM
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#5 | | RS controls my life!
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I prefer a clutch because it's more fun, and that's one of the reasons I drive, to have fun!
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05-11-2009, 06:47 PM
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#6 | | I answer every Emotion with an emoticon
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I like the SMG/ DSG/ brand name here style transmissions, and would strongly consider one if I were buying a car with that as an option. However, paddle controls for a car with a slushbox auto are a no joy situation in my mind.
The twin clutch setups just run SO quickly, I don't care how fast you shift, these do it faster, and more accurately. Each version of them seems to get better too.
As for creeping around, just use the brake and gas together. It's not hard.
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05-11-2009, 09:42 PM
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#7 | | RS.net, helping ugly ppl have sex since 2001
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on an M3 it was quite hard, the transmission is completely disconnected at idle ish revs, catch fully at about 1200 and then if u load it up wuth brake it'll cut out again...
it's go like pants on fire or roll back, can't do anything inbetween to get a better view on the mirror, which is common practice on all other transmission-equipped cars.
__________________ ⇐ If I bothered replying, that's the face I made while I typed.
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05-11-2009, 09:43 PM
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#8 | | I am on the internets
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jackygor - where did you get your quote in the signature?
its awesome.
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Last edited by maxx; 05-12-2009 at 03:45 AM.
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05-11-2009, 10:45 PM
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#9 | | F**K YOUR HEAD
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the only manly way to shift gears is to rip open ur transmission and shift it with ur fingers
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05-11-2009, 10:54 PM
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#10 | | OMGWTFBBQ is a common word I say everyday
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I"m one of those people who think that by using my left foot while driving i'm more elite than those who drive slush boxes.
i've been quite stubborn and haven't driven a car with a good DSG-esque transmission so i've given up on them.
i've never had a good experience with slush box transmissions, they've always been in the wrong gear, boring to drive, never quite stops when you want it to, never has power when you need it, and never shifts quite as smooth as doing it myself.
but i'd gladly drive a dsg-esque one if given the chance.
__________________ 1996 Honda Accord 1995 Nissan 240sx 2004 Infiniti G35 2005 Honda Jazz BuySell Feedback Quote: |
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05-12-2009, 02:24 AM
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#11 | | RS.net, helping ugly ppl have sex since 2001
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I drove manual cars for 8+ years...then I got my SMG M3...If I had the option to choose again, I'd still choose SMG over the standard manual. I really don't see ANY draw backs to it. It's smooth if you know how to drive properly...and in regards to creep...the SMG does have a hill ascent hold feature (hold the left paddle for 2 seconds and ur car will stay put).
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05-12-2009, 07:57 AM
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#12 | | Willing to sell body for a few minutes on RS
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For me, nothing beats the feeling of rowing my own gears. I don't care if some fancy transmission can do it faster, shifting the old fashioned way with a clutch pedal is more fun. I feel more in control of the application of power in the car.
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05-12-2009, 08:37 AM
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#13 | | RS.net, helping ugly ppl have sex since 2001
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Originally Posted by ShyGuy I drove manual cars for 8+ years...then I got my SMG M3...If I had the option to choose again, I'd still choose SMG over the standard manual. I really don't see ANY draw backs to it. It's smooth if you know how to drive properly...and in regards to creep...the SMG does have a hill ascent hold feature (hold the left paddle for 2 seconds and ur car will stay put). | And the M3 owner in the car with me didn't know that.....I've got to tell him LOL
He was like "yeah....errr it just rolls like that" 
__________________ ⇐ If I bothered replying, that's the face I made while I typed.
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05-12-2009, 12:28 PM
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#14 | | My dinner reheated before my turbo spooled
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Got an SMG car myself, I'd have to say it's pretty convenient, it does feel engaging to be driving the car and it doesn't feel like an automatic at all.
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05-12-2009, 03:08 PM
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#15 | | WOAH! i think Vtec just kicked in!
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"Are Shift Paddles for pussies?"
yes
Chopstick's grandma can own him in one
its bad enough most new cars with clutches are so light and void of any feel, cars like the 370z even have the capability to revmatch for the driver when they downshift in their manuals (in stupid sport mode), eliminating the last fun thing a driver could experience
good for girls listening to top 40, bad for ppl (=___=) p
if this dumbass trend keeps on going, by 2015 cars will shift themselves when the "driver" depresses the clutch pedal. revmatching, and clutch plate engagement will be fully automated, as even the clutch pedal will be by fiber optic
fuck engineers, they make life boring
think about it
transmissions is a lot like having sex
there are many types of transmissions, many types of sex. okie?
manual transmission is like doing a girl, u bang her, have an orgasm, and jizz in her, u use ur pelvis, and u have to thrust ur stick urself, just like a true manual transmission, throughout the whole process, u do everything urself, and feel 100% of the satisfaction.
then there is smg, dsg shit. thats like, also having sex with a girl. the only difference is that, instead of using ur pelvis and thrusting ur own stick, u just insert and have the girl do all the work for u. imagine having the jizz sucked right out of ur cock, and u don't even experience orgasm. there is no feeling to anything, as u urself have done nothing. thats how driving a car with no clutch pedal is like.
by Chopstick
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Originally Posted by Chopstick so instead of teaching retarded monkeys not to cross the yellow line
give them a book and a bannana. the retarded monkey now becomes a smart banana | | |
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05-12-2009, 03:33 PM
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#16 | | WOAH! i think Vtec just kicked in!
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Originally Posted by Chopstick "Are Shift Paddles for pussies?"
yes
Chopstick's grandma can own him in one
its bad enough most new cars with clutches are so light and void of any feel, cars like the 370z even have the capability to revmatch for the driver when they downshift in their manuals (in stupid sport mode), eliminating the last fun thing a driver could experience
good for girls listening to top 40, bad for ppl (=___=) p
if this dumbass trend keeps on going, by 2015 cars will shift themselves when the "driver" depresses the clutch pedal. revmatching, and clutch plate engagement will be fully automated, as even the clutch pedal will be by fiber optic
fuck engineers, they make life boring
think about it
transmissions is a lot like having sex
there are many types of transmissions, many types of sex. okie?
manual transmission is like doing a girl, u bang her, have an orgasm, and jizz in her, u use ur pelvis, and u have to thrust ur stick urself, just like a true manual transmission, throughout the whole process, u do everything urself, and feel 100% of the satisfaction.
then there is smg, dsg shit. thats like, also having sex with a girl. the only difference is that, instead of using ur pelvis and thrusting ur own stick, u just insert and have the girl do all the work for u. imagine having the jizz sucked right out of ur cock, and u don't even experience orgasm. there is no feeling to anything, as u urself have done nothing. thats how driving a car with no clutch pedal is like.
by Chopstick | also, having sex with a manual transmission would be like, "oooh, aahhh", bystanders would be like "WOW did u see that", to a degree depending on ur skill, u walk away feeling u accomplished something
having sex with a smg would be like, "wtf just happened i didnt do anything yet is it done", and bystanders will be like "wow so pro" but deep down inside, u walk away quietly knowing that u contribute absolutely nothing to the performance
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"TUXTLA GUTIERREZ, Mexico - A donkey is doing time in southern Mexico for assault and battery"
"LAGOS - Police in Nigeria are holding a goat on suspicion of attempted armed robbery" Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopstick so instead of teaching retarded monkeys not to cross the yellow line
give them a book and a bannana. the retarded monkey now becomes a smart banana | | |
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05-12-2009, 03:33 PM
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#17 | | What hasn't Killed me, has made me more tolerant of RS!
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A vehicle transmission IS like having sex.. 
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05-12-2009, 03:54 PM
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#18 | | RS.net, where our google ads make absolutely no sense!
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| Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopstick "Are Shift Paddles for pussies?"
yes
Chopstick's grandma can own him in one
its bad enough most new cars with clutches are so light and void of any feel, cars like the 370z even have the capability to revmatch for the driver when they downshift in their manuals (in stupid sport mode), eliminating the last fun thing a driver could experience
good for girls listening to top 40, bad for ppl (=___=) p
if this dumbass trend keeps on going, by 2015 cars will shift themselves when the "driver" depresses the clutch pedal. revmatching, and clutch plate engagement will be fully automated, as even the clutch pedal will be by fiber optic
fuck engineers, they make life boring
think about it
transmissions is a lot like having sex
there are many types of transmissions, many types of sex. okie?
manual transmission is like doing a girl, u bang her, have an orgasm, and jizz in her, u use ur pelvis, and u have to thrust ur stick urself, just like a true manual transmission, throughout the whole process, u do everything urself, and feel 100% of the satisfaction.
then there is smg, dsg shit. thats like, also having sex with a girl. the only difference is that, instead of using ur pelvis and thrusting ur own stick, u just insert and have the girl do all the work for u. imagine having the jizz sucked right out of ur cock, and u don't even experience orgasm. there is no feeling to anything, as u urself have done nothing. thats how driving a car with no clutch pedal is like.
by Chopstick | Guess who uses Paddle Shifters? Yes, F1 drivers, so that's like saying F1 drivers are pussies.
I think you just haven't tried a GOOD transmission, like SMG II/III on M3/M5's, DSG's and MDCT on the new M3.
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05-12-2009, 08:33 PM
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#19 | | straight from the fields of squamton
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never tired a MGS tranny yet, and I bet solid snake is happy about that.
I'm content with my 3rd pedal
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05-12-2009, 08:57 PM
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#20 | | RS.net, helping ugly ppl have sex since 2001
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As traffic gets denser and denser in the city there is surely a trend towards 2 pedal cars....
What would be perfect is a H pattern transmission which is just "electronically simulated" with a D range down the dead center....If you shift with clutch, fine. If you don't shift with clutch, the electronics do the clutch and engagement for you. The clutch the computer controls and the clutch you control are 2 different units so you can left foot control the smoothness too. When in "D" range the car will declutch itself when came to a dead stop.
and a 3rd pedal that controls a clutch that's in sequence with the SMG/SST clutch
now that would be the true best of both worlds. That's like BG4 arcade machine, actually.
__________________ ⇐ If I bothered replying, that's the face I made while I typed.
- 2017 Alfa Romeo Giula Q4
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- 1998 Nissan Laurel Medallion Club S drift boi
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- 1989 Nissan S-Cargo cute boi
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05-13-2009, 07:30 AM
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#21 | | RS controls my life!
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I like that ^^ idea. You do get the best of both. The automatic in bumper to bumper....and manual whenever else.
F1 drivers use it because I can't not admit that it isn't a faster thing. But even when I'm driving for speed, I'm still driving for fun, and I find it a lot more fun to drive a stick  | |
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05-13-2009, 11:53 AM
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#22 | | Banned By Establishment
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YES
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05-13-2009, 01:17 PM
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#23 | | I answer every Emotion with an emoticon
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i should buy a M3 is try it out
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05-13-2009, 01:51 PM
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#24 | | I *heart* Revscene.net very Muchie
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I really like the twin clutch concept (DSG). I still prefer rowing my own gears for the sake of enjoyment.
What I DO NOT LIKE are paddle shifters hooked up to an automatic gearbox...anything with a torque converter gives you that indecisive, elastic band feeling of [lack of] control.
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05-13-2009, 08:57 PM
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#25 | | Wunder? Wonder?? Wander???
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I've been lucky enough to have the pleasure of driving a Ferrari F430, Ferrari 599 Fiorano, and a Lamborghini Gallardo in Vegas all 3 had paddle shifts and I loved it...it's pretty fun and damn it's quick. I normally drive a manual 6spd but would love my next car to have DSG or SMG.
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