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Old 06-19-2009, 06:42 PM   #76
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The closed mortgages I was looking at were not portable or assumable...???

You also neglected where I wrote "young clients". First time buyers, single buyers, condo buyers, ... like many of the people responding in this thread. 5 yrs is a long time if you happen to meet someone, find another job, finances change (after being maxed out to buy in the first place like many people), ... IMHO the extra 0.1-0.2% savings isn't worth the lack of flexibility/mobility.
all of coast capital savings mortgages are portable and assumable
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Old 08-19-2009, 11:59 AM   #77
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Any broker recommending a young client a closed mortgage is a broker to avoid.
Good read. And on this ^^ my closed variable mortgage with TD is portable and pre-payable (with exceptions of course - up to 20% of original mortgage amout per year, can increase payment amounts etc). Only thing is if I don't transfer the mortgage when I sell, I have to pay a 3 month interest penalty ($1k).
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Old 09-10-2009, 01:27 PM   #78
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Any broker recommending a young client a closed mortgage is a broker to avoid.
Why? at under 4% (fixed/5yrs), I don't see much benefit of having an open mortgage.
- Chance of comparable mortgage rate going further down is slim
- Many people, and especially the younger people have other debt such as car loans/lease, student loan, line of credit...etc. Most of these debts carry interest rate at about the same if not higher than 4%. So if these ppl do have excess capital, it better for them to pay down other debts first.
- Fixed rate closed mortgage are typically going at 1.5% higher than open mortgage for 5 years term. Do you think the flexibility of open mortgage is worth the extra 1.5%? (roughly 15% more in monthly payment)

Also to add, most people are not financial savvy, especially the younger ones. I'd bet 7 out of 10 20~ years old you ask on the street have no idea what the current mortgage/interest/fed rates are. Most of these people go on their lives after getting their mortgages, never looking back at it again until their bank sent them letter for renewals.
So even if the mortgage rate did indeed go down, a lot of these people wouldn't even know, and wouldn't be able to take advantage of the lowered rate.
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Old 09-10-2009, 07:38 PM   #79
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guess the mortgage rates didn't go up yet heh? they are actually going down on monday

Last edited by winks; 09-11-2009 at 05:03 PM.
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Old 09-10-2009, 08:22 PM   #80
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Good read. And on this ^^ my closed variable mortgage with TD is portable and pre-payable (with exceptions of course - up to 20% of original mortgage amout per year, can increase payment amounts etc). Only thing is if I don't transfer the mortgage when I sell, I have to pay a 3 month interest penalty ($1k).
you better read the fine print on the payment page i believe its the third page of your mortgage agreement. its not just 3 month's interest penalty they would charge you depending on which one is higher 3 month's interest or interest rate differential (which can come up to be substantial) plus 300.00 reinvestment fee as well as if you close the mortgage or move to another bank you would have to pay 260 for handling fee and 75 bux for de registration. the rate differential value varies based on your remaining balance prior to closing out the mortgage. you can port your mortgage over if you purchase another home within 120 days... after 120 you pay the penalty no exceptions to that rule... btw prepayment is 15% at TD not 20% you also have the option every year to double up to 100% of your monthly or biweekly payments i.e. if you are paying 1000 / mn you can go up to 2000/mn on payments which helps shrink down amortization.
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Old 09-14-2009, 12:54 PM   #81
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guess the mortgage rates didn't go up yet heh? they are actually going down on monday
Its scary, we're inflating another bubble.
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Old 09-14-2009, 12:56 PM   #82
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rates have been slowly coming down for the past week or two
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Old 09-14-2009, 01:00 PM   #83
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Why? at under 4% (fixed/5yrs), I don't see much benefit of having an open mortgage.
I should have been more clear. There are varying degrees of closed mortgages, having one that's either assumable or transferrable is beneficial. You can get a closed mortgage that is neither and save another 0.1-2%, yet its not worth it.

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Also to add, most people are not financial savvy, especially the younger ones. I'd bet 7 out of 10 20~ years old you ask on the street have no idea what the current mortgage/interest/fed rates are. Most of these people go on their lives after getting their mortgages, never looking back at it again until their bank sent them letter for renewals.
Which is why in 5 years we're going to see another bubble pop, or interest rates will have to be held near 4% for a long time.

Many buyers are purchasing with rates at 4% yet still bumping up against the GDS and TDS ceilings of 35% and 42%. When rates reset to 6%, owners can cut back a bit to afford the higher mortgage payment, yet what happens at renewal when they are above 35% or 42%? This is very likely, especially as salaries are frozen in many industries so salaries won't rise enough to compensate for higher rates.

BoC is already showing signs of wanting to raise rates, although its interesting to see the bond market pulling back, signaling we might be in for a very long recession.
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Old 09-15-2009, 09:21 AM   #84
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^ Something that's interesting is the refinancing structure I've noticed some people taking.

I'm not a lender myself so this is only hearsay through clients and the prospects are kind of scary.

For example. A client buys a home today with a 30 year rate at 4.5% on 5 years and this is at their threshold. Let us say the mortgage is for $500,000 which is not uncommon.

In 5 years, lets assume that the expectation of the buyer (which would make sense) is that their home is worth at least what they paid for it, probably more. If we say the value is the same, and rates move from 4.5 to 6% what now? The increased payment would likely be $400 but if they refinance, the extra is only $200 which isn't too bad.

The problem is that there is a good chance that the house will be worth less than at purchase price but even if it's not, the mortgage obligation increases over time.

That in itself isn't too bad but there are clients in their 50's refinancing. They will be using their pension to pay off their mortgage, all the while the chances of increased payment and never actually owning the home they live in.
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Old 09-17-2009, 04:10 PM   #85
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That in itself isn't too bad but there are clients in their 50's refinancing. They will be using their pension to pay off their mortgage, all the while the chances of increased payment and never actually owning the home they live in.
Wanna see just how bad this scheme is?

Lets consider your $500K house, every 5 years you refinance the remaining principal for another 35 years, here's what your mortgage payment would be (considering rates reset to 6% in 5 years and stay there):
Now: 2210
5yrs: 2640
10yrs: 2510
15yrs: 2390
20yrs: 2260
25yrs: 2150
30yrs: 2040
35yrs: 1940

and you'd still owe $323K on the mortgage.

Banks should not be allowing this, people might as well rent if they are going to pursue this strategy.
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Old 09-18-2009, 07:48 AM   #86
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^ Didn't someone tell you that home ownership is more than it's cracked up to be.

Who doesn't like paying taxes, fixing your own problems and being tied to a mortgage.

Vancouverites will walk into a bank and the bank says "would you like a mortgage?" and the client will say "Yes! I'll take two!"

This won't be pretty for a lot of people but those who have the hard cash sitting aside it will be a good time to pick up some places. The only thing that pisses me off is the CMHC structure. Taxpayers on the hook for everything.
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Old 09-18-2009, 07:50 AM   #87
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A good read about this:

Monday, July 20, 2009
CMHC - Canada's Breaking Point

(ALL GRAPHS EXTRACTED FROM CMHC PUBLICATIONS)

Everyone here is probably very well aware of who CMHC is. For any international visitors, CMHC was formed as a crown corporation in Canada after World War II to address the shortage in housing. It's mandate was to make home ownership accessible to all Canadians. CMHC primary deliverables is mortgage insurance and mortgage backed securities. Think Fannie and Freddie.

In 2001 GE Capital was permitted to join CMHC in the Canadian mortgage insurance industry to provide competition in the marketplace. GE Capital began insuring Canadian mortgages and issuing NHA-MBS (Mortgage Backed securities insured by the Government of Canada). In response to competition, CMHC began its trip down a new road.



In 2002 total outstanding mortgage debt in Canada was still a cool $467 billion. This was predominantly issued to good credit and people with proper downpayments. CMHC insured a small portion of this debt.

In 2003 CMHC decided to remove the price ceilings limitations. That is, it would insure any mortgage regardless of the cost of the home.

In 2007, after years of lobbying, the now defunct AIG found new hope with the newly elected Conservative government. AIG was now permitted to insure high risk Canadian mortgages. It was also permitted to issue mortgage backed securities and exchange these on the open market. At the same time, the Conservative government launched a radical policy that allowed CMHC, AIG & GE to insure 35 year ams and 0% down payments. A few months later this was expanded to 40 year amortizations.

Thanks to this stimulus in 2007 the market radically changed. Historically high home prices continued to gain steam. High risk borrowers flooded the real estate market. Throughout 2007, the average home buyer who took out a mortgage had only 6% equity in their homes. That's the national average downpayment for all mortgages including buyers who moved up.


(2006 and prior years reflect a combination of larger downpayments, home price appreciations, payments on mortgages and shorter amortization terms)

In 2008, Canadian home prices started to dip as affordability became the worst on record in many cities. CMHC admits that it was ordered to approve as many high risk borrowers as possible to prop up the housing market and keep credit flowing. 42% of all high risk applications were approved, a 33% increase over 2007. (Please see matrix below for more information)




While many banks were flogging that it was a great time to buy a home, not one of them increased their mortgage holdings. Between the beginning of 2007 and 2009 Canadian Banks increased their total mortgage credit oustanding listed on their books by only 0.01% (see CMHC chart below). One has to question if real estate was such a great investment, why didn't they want to touch it?



The only growth has been in the securitization of Canadian mortgages. In Canada this scheme has worked very well despite the credit crisis since the government of Canada insures 100% of any losses (not just the 20% downpayment). This means that the securities are as secure as government bonds, yet pay a higher premium (currently 3.1%).

The banks get to keep the difference between the interest rate charged to consumers and the rate paid to investors. The result of a government backing is cheaper subsidized funds for them to issue mortgages with. It also removes all risk.

The largest market for MBS is 5-year fixed single residential homes. The average term has swelled over the past two years and the majority of issues are for ams over 30 years. Some pools of MBS were issued at 9% but pay investors only 4% - representing how risky and profitable these loans are. CMHC charges 0.2% for the insurance, leaving up to 4.8% profit for the bank.



Securitization has accounted for 90.5% of all growth in total Canadian mortgage credit outstanding since 2007. Its market has grown from 100 billion in 2006, to 130 billion in 2007, to 260 billion by Q1 of 2009 (UPDATE: $295 billion by mid-June 2009). CHMC plans to expand securitization of debt to 370 billion by the end of 2009 as per the conservative government request.

All of these securties are traded on an open exchange and insured by the Government of Canada. Currently TD issued 59 billion in securities outstanding, CIBC 51 billion, BNS 32 billion, RBC 45 billion and BMO 27 billion. This explains why, if you are like so many, your eye balls popped when the bank preapproved your mortgage.



Many individuals are being granted 500-800K for their first home purchase if their household income ranges from 110-170K. The banks don't care. You either qualify for securitization or you don't. Their is no emotion or extra thought put into the loan by the bank since it bears zero risk. Investors don't care who you are since the security is backed by the government. In fact the only person who should care is you, the taxpayer. But apparently in Canada noone cares about the risk the taxpayer takes on. It's all about having a lavish political career.

As interest rates edged up about a percent in early 2008, Canadian real estate began to nose dive losing 10% of its value by September 2008. 10% is a significant confidence level in real estate. Surpassing it means that all the buyers in 2007 would move into negative equity. Cranking interest rates down to 0% in October of 2008 along with the expansion of government backed securities allowed mortgage rates to reach an all time low. The resulted in a house boom in the middle of the worst Canadian recession since the Great Depression. Home prices in May 2009 reached an all time high of $326,613 or over 7x the average Canadian income.


On Jan 1 2009 CMHC allowed non regulated financial institutions to issue mortgage backed securities. Furthermore on January 26, 2009 CMHC allowed the securitization of line of credits, non amortizing and amortizing loans and readvanceable loans to also be securitized.

CMHC indicates in its plan that it will insure $813 billion via a combination of mortgage insurance and mortgage-backed securities (MBS) by the end of 2009. Looking at 2008 and 2007, one can clearly see that CMHC has drastically exeeded their planned figures. 812 billion is more than likely a minimum target. At this rate the Government of Canada will be insuring well over $500 billion in securitized mortgages and lines of credit by the end of 2010. It will also have issued over $600 billion in outstanding mortgage insurance.



Even at the zenith of the US housing bubble, prices peaked around $250,000 US while incomes were around $47,000 US. In Canada, incomes are $44,000 and prices are now at $326,613. If I have evidenced to you at this point how risky our lending has been, how are we so different than America? One might even say that we are much worse.

None of this is sustainable. This will all end very badly for our nation and taxpayers in the next couple of years.

References:

All charts, facts and figures were extracted from the CMHC website. CMHC provides free monthly, quarterly and annual publications on their website. Graphs were extracted from these publications.

Last edited by Chuck Norris; 09-18-2009 at 07:58 AM.
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Old 09-18-2009, 10:15 AM   #88
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This won't be pretty for a lot of people but those who have the hard cash sitting aside it will be a good time to pick up some places.
Hoping to have $$$ saved for 5 years from now when the bubble bursts again. Combined with the equity in my rental home, and my GF's condo, we should be in a good position to pickup a deal from some poor sucker forced to sell cause they couldn't renew.
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Old 09-18-2009, 10:36 AM   #89
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A good read about this:

Monday, July 20, 2009
CMHC - Canada's Breaking Point
Awesome blog, reading more now.

http://americacanada.blogspot.com/

From this blog:
Quote:
MARRY AND BOB

Let's assume Marry and Bob earn $60,000 and $50,000 respectively. They are approved for $500,000 loan and choose a 35 year, variable rate mortgage. After-tax income is $75,000 or $6,250/mth.

$6,250 / month income
less:
Two Vehicles:
$500 car payment
$200 insurance
$125 car maintenance
$500 gas

Home:
$400 property taxes
$100 house insurance
$300 house maintenance
$200 utilities
$150 internet, cable, phone

Food
$800 groceries
$200 work lunches, snacks and coffee ($100 a piece)

Total deductions:
$3,475

Total left over for mortgage payment, entertainment, debt repayments on loans, CC's and HELOC's, household improvements, disposable consumption, savings and investments.
$2,775

So let's see what happens when the couple signs on for their $500,000 mortgage for 35 years and the associated mortgage payment:

2.5% - $1,787 - "cheap, anyone can afford that, we have about $1,000 left over for everything else.. let's put a new deck in while the reno tax credit is still in effect"

3% - $1,924 - "we can cut back on our lunches and we'll be fine"

4% - $2,213 - "$500 a month extra, where are we going to get that? - we are breaking even despite cutting back on entertainment and lunches"

5% - $2,523 - "we are going to have to max out the cards this month to pay for this"

6% - $2,850 - "home prices are plummeting and we're in negative equity"

7% - $3,194 - "It's been like since like the late 90's since rates were like this!

8% - $3,551 - "Our mortgage has doubled"

9% - $3,920 - we're broke

10% - $4,298 - mortgage payment is now 2.4 times larger than the initial loan.

The point is, whether you are calling for a subtle 1.5% rise in mortgage rates, or 6.5%, the change is quite dramatic. This does not bode well for home prices.

Last edited by taylor192; 09-18-2009 at 11:02 AM.
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