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08-26-2009, 07:13 PM
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#26 | | Unofficial Tin Foil Hat Specialist.
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Honda Clarity all the way!!!  | 
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08-26-2009, 07:21 PM
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#27 | | Diagonally parked in a parallel universe
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Originally Posted by skyxx  Honda Clarity all the way!!! | no Aerance, just no..... great idea but highly unfeasible with all the infrastructure and high prices of the fuel cells and hydrogen tanks
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08-26-2009, 08:57 PM
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#28 | | I am on the internets
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Originally Posted by skyxx Honda Clarity all the way!!! | Honda Clarity is the only way. (in not too distant future)
__________________
"As Sir Francis Bacon once said, 'There is no beauty which hath not some strangeness about its proportions'.
And he's right, who ever he is. I mean, look at Keira Knightley.
She's just an ironing board with a face. And she works." - JC on the Alfa 8C
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08-26-2009, 10:02 PM
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#29 | | Banned By Establishment
Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Shaugnessy
Posts: 2,610
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Originally Posted by SpuGen You just explained what happens before a one night stand.
But the topic is about cars.
Some people buy GTR's(like say a R32) just to "beat" other cars, but when a group of GTR's are on the touge, they get their ass tailed by a 79 Camaro.
You can't pass someone when they're laying down a smokescreen just for fun. Even with all the awesome that is ATTESA, GTR's still drive into ditches.
But back to the topic.
How would you measure MPG if it doesn't use fuel?
Just how "green" is this car compared to the Volt?
Last I remember, to make a Prius, it created more pollution than to make a Hummer H2. | I raced a 79 camaro once. the owner kept saying he'd love to go all out but his engine had problems. so we drove slow and just cruised it.
Wow I didnt know there's people dumb enough out there to think going for a cruise is racing. Were these official races by any chance? I didn't think racing out of different car class types would be fair but I'm pretty sure you can call out any gtr driver to go race a stock 79 camaro anytime.
This really intelligent guy once told me that the R32 GTR was idiot proof thanks to its ATTESA system. He told me you could just point and hammer the throttle down, and it'd perfectly take the turn for you. Some time later, I realize how naive I was for believing this boss playa tru balla. I should've researched from credible info sources rather than wannabe top gear host experts that base claims purely on their imagination. Experts that can't even go 2 years without getting into accidents...
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08-26-2009, 10:04 PM
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#30 | | Banned By Establishment
Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Shaugnessy
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Originally Posted by 124Y Nissan LeafEV VS Chevy Volt reminds me of this:  | I dont get it.. it should be: even if you win, you're still fuel efficient..
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08-27-2009, 03:37 PM
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#31 | | Head Moderator
Join Date: Dec 1982 Location: Great White Nor
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Originally Posted by BNR32_Coupe This really intelligent guy once told me that the R32 GTR was idiot proof thanks to its ATTESA system. He told me you could just point and hammer the throttle down, and it'd perfectly take the turn for you. Some time later, I realize how naive I was for believing this boss playa tru balla. I should've researched from credible info sources rather than wannabe top gear host experts that base claims purely on their imagination. Experts that can't even go 2 years without getting into accidents... |
Idiot proof, no. But the way the car is setup means that you don't need a lot of skill to drive it as well as another car on the track (say a 240 or GTI). It also doesn't help that it's still quite a boring car to drive. Fast, yes. Great handling? Absolutely. But it's controlled by computers so much and has such a feel of detachment that you can race around a track while sipping an espresso and doing the New York Times crossword and never have to worry about how to handle the chicane that's coming up.
And, yes, I have real world exprience to back up my opinions.
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08-27-2009, 06:54 PM
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#32 | | Banned By Establishment
Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Shaugnessy
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Originally Posted by Lomac Idiot proof, no. But the way the car is setup means that you don't need a lot of skill to drive it as well as another car on the track (say a 240 or GTI). It also doesn't help that it's still quite a boring car to drive. Fast, yes. Great handling? Absolutely. But it's controlled by computers so much and has such a feel of detachment that you can race around a track while sipping an espresso and doing the New York Times crossword and never have to worry about how to handle the chicane that's coming up.
And, yes, I have real world exprience to back up my opinions. | Well lets face it the thing is still a tail happy car, regardless of amount of electronics put into it. We all know HICAS does jack shit (try putting a lock bar on it and see if it makes a difference), and the ATTESA on the R32 is primitive at best. Those are the two electronically controlled things on the car that supposedly make it drive itself.
I noticed theres a GTR bashing bandwagon going on, citing that it drives itself despite the numerous critique claims that the thing is tail happy and definitely not point and shoot. Why isn't anyone bashing EVO's or STi's for their 4wd system, or to the most extreme end of the spectrum, the SH-AWD system on newer acura's?
I suspect the reason why nobody bashes the other cars for their drivetrain technology is because those cars don't have much of a legacy behind them. Let's face it, from the group A races in the early 90's to the old school PS1's GT2, GTR's have caught and won the attention of many young car enthusiasts, which we like to label as 'fanboys'. So with all the hype and pride that it carries, there are the folks out there that like to think they're being original, special, or unique by bashing tried and proven things. Or maybe because so many idiots like GTR's, people don't want to be classified as a same group of people as them.
Let me ask you, why does something that work better have to be bashed? Why stop at a specific type of drivetrain (attesa)? Why not criticize it for having boosted power? Dampers with springs? Power steering? Multi Link Suspension? Spark plugs? Being 3400lbs? Having cross drilled rotors? It seems like your logic is "if it doesn't handle like ass, it's too easy" Well then whip out your horse draw carriage with wooden wheels and literally no suspension, then feel proud that you're driving something technologically inferior.
If you're going to say the ATTESA system makes you feel so detached from the car, then tell me what you think is a real drivers car and I'll tell you what makes it easy to drive.
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08-27-2009, 07:40 PM
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#33 | | They let me be a moderator. LOL
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Nobody bashes the EVO or STI AWD system because it's been proven over and over again in Rally races. Same with Audi's Quattro.
Those cars were made to be AWD, all the time (pretty much). Not RWD, then omfg I'm going into a ditch!! ATTESA training wheels GO!
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08-27-2009, 07:52 PM
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#34 | | Banned By Establishment
Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Shaugnessy
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Originally Posted by SpuGen
Nobody bashes the EVO or STI AWD system because it's been proven over and over again in Rally races. Same with Audi's Quattro.
Those cars were made to be AWD, all the time (pretty much). Not RWD, then omfg I'm going into a ditch!! ATTESA training wheels GO! | That's the most ignorant shit i've ever heard. Torque splitting to each corner precisely with LSD's everywhere versus abrupt torque splitting front/rear only with an open diff in the front and viscous rear. It's OK to either have the car completely drive for you, or completely handle like shit. But having the best of both worlds is taboo. EVO's and STI's use every trick in the book to get around corners, just like using every trick in the book to get a sloppy second one night stand.
Anyways, you should get a R32, maybe it'll help you park without bumping into other people in reverse, scraping your fender off, blow through stop signs and split your car in half, or rear end other people. It will save you money from insurance premiums in the long run.
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08-27-2009, 08:44 PM
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#35 | | Head Moderator
Join Date: Dec 1982 Location: Great White Nor
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Originally Posted by BNR32_Coupe Well lets face it the thing is still a tail happy car, regardless of amount of electronics put into it. We all know HICAS does jack shit (try putting a lock bar on it and see if it makes a difference), and the ATTESA on the R32 is primitive at best. Those are the two electronically controlled things on the car that supposedly make it drive itself.
I noticed theres a GTR bashing bandwagon going on, citing that it drives itself despite the numerous critique claims that the thing is tail happy and definitely not point and shoot. Why isn't anyone bashing EVO's or STi's for their 4wd system, or to the most extreme end of the spectrum, the SH-AWD system on newer acura's?
I suspect the reason why nobody bashes the other cars for their drivetrain technology is because those cars don't have much of a legacy behind them. Let's face it, from the group A races in the early 90's to the old school PS1's GT2, GTR's have caught and won the attention of many young car enthusiasts, which we like to label as 'fanboys'. So with all the hype and pride that it carries, there are the folks out there that like to think they're being original, special, or unique by bashing tried and proven things. Or maybe because so many idiots like GTR's, people don't want to be classified as a same group of people as them.
Let me ask you, why does something that work better have to be bashed? Why stop at a specific type of drivetrain (attesa)? Why not criticize it for having boosted power? Dampers with springs? Power steering? Multi Link Suspension? Spark plugs? Being 3400lbs? Having cross drilled rotors? It seems like your logic is "if it doesn't handle like ass, it's too easy" Well then whip out your horse draw carriage with wooden wheels and literally no suspension, then feel proud that you're driving something technologically inferior.
If you're going to say the ATTESA system makes you feel so detached from the car, then tell me what you think is a real drivers car and I'll tell you what makes it easy to drive. | I never claimed that ATTESA is what makes one feel detached from the car. Rather, it's the endless amount of electronic gizmos that help run the car. It's not even limited to the GTR; Throttle-by-wire, steer-by-wire, hydraulic clutches, TCS/ETC, hell... even ABS to some extent... those are what kills the "experience" of driving a car. I've driven plenty of cars on both ends of the spectrum (Ford Model T's and '60's muscle cars vs Aston Martin DB9, GTR, and other modern computerized cars) and there are obvious advantages and disadvantages to both.
Don't get me wrong here; I respect the capabilities that the GTR can clearly exhibit. It's an amazing piece of technology. However, the fact that it's basically a road-legal PS3 is what kills it for me. I don't like electronic aids helping me drive a car. Even driving my daily driver (a 7g Accord coupe) makes me feel like I'm not "in control." Compare that to my old VW track cars and you feel the difference. It's not just in the way it handles, it's in the way how you feel the torque steer, the heaviness of the steering wheel as you take the turn, the exact point of the cable-driven clutch when it engages, the exact pressure you need to push the brakes as it straddles the line of locking up, etc. I'm not saying that this is better, it just makes for a more satisfying drive because you know you're doing the work yourself without the aids of an electronic computer brain.
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08-27-2009, 08:48 PM
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#36 | | 2x Variable Nockenwellen Steuerung
Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: N49.2 W122.1
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Differential is only part of the equation.. If you talk about limits of the envelope, the layout (eg Quattro is way out front due to transmission sharing) and engine choices come into play.. eg Haldex/SHAWD is inherently not that great due to transverse layout and front biased weight distribution. or Porsche is always limited by the weight and size of their flat 6.
I have covered different types of diffs before in other threads. ATTESA etc are brand names, but the guts have been changed so many times, the end result might be similiar but the control methods/ systems are different vastly. One example is how VW call older 4Motion Passat 4Motion, even though it is a Quattro.
SH-AWD is an electronically controlled diff which was first right of use was bought by Honda, but is now in many other systems.. eg BMW's M Diff, latest version of Quattro.
Thing to remember.. yes Trademark selling points / brand names stay the same... Control methods/algorithm change and so do the systems. In order to do proper comparison, you really have to make sure of the year, the OE supplier to the manufacturer and the algorithm and parts constraints.
Current best technology is a AWD with the ability to control the gearbox and the engine, with 2 -3 yaw and pitch sensors and electronically progressive control clutches for centre, front and rear diffs.
I buy into the technologies because I know I am not infallible and it is nice to know there is a safety net when I mess up when I am going say over 100kph on a wet road around a corner. It is a bit counter intuitive.. if you don't want the computers cut into your driving style "aggressively".. the only way is to let it do manage more systems, eg if you use DSG/PDK/DCT transmission, the traction computers change gears first before they cut throttle or in some cases locks the diffs first. You have to give it more options to interfere.. I mean if the only way for the computer is to cut throttle, it is going to just do that.
However all of this is really off topic of the thread. Quote:
Originally Posted by BNR32_Coupe That's the most ignorant shit i've ever heard. Torque splitting to each corner precisely with LSD's everywhere versus abrupt torque splitting front/rear only with an open diff in the front and viscous rear. It's OK to either have the car completely drive for you, or completely handle like shit. But having the best of both worlds is taboo. EVO's and STI's use every trick in the book to get around corners, just like using every trick in the book to get a sloppy second one night stand.
Anyways, you should get a R32, maybe it'll help you park without bumping into other people in reverse, scraping your fender off, blow through stop signs and split your car in half, or rear end other people. It will save you money from insurance premiums in the long run. |
Last edited by godwin; 08-27-2009 at 09:09 PM.
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08-27-2009, 09:02 PM
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#37 | | Banned (BBM)
Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Vancouver
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that thing is fugly as hell, dear lord
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08-27-2009, 11:02 PM
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#38 | | Banned By Establishment
Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Shaugnessy
Posts: 2,610
Thanked 481 Times in 168 Posts
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| Quote:
Originally Posted by Lomac I never claimed that ATTESA is what makes one feel detached from the car. Rather, it's the endless amount of electronic gizmos that help run the car. It's not even limited to the GTR; Throttle-by-wire, steer-by-wire, hydraulic clutches, TCS/ETC, hell... even ABS to some extent... those are what kills the "experience" of driving a car. I've driven plenty of cars on both ends of the spectrum (Ford Model T's and '60's muscle cars vs Aston Martin DB9, GTR, and other modern computerized cars) and there are obvious advantages and disadvantages to both.
Don't get me wrong here; I respect the capabilities that the GTR can clearly exhibit. It's an amazing piece of technology. However, the fact that it's basically a road-legal PS3 is what kills it for me. I don't like electronic aids helping me drive a car. Even driving my daily driver (a 7g Accord coupe) makes me feel like I'm not "in control." Compare that to my old VW track cars and you feel the difference. It's not just in the way it handles, it's in the way how you feel the torque steer, the heaviness of the steering wheel as you take the turn, the exact point of the cable-driven clutch when it engages, the exact pressure you need to push the brakes as it straddles the line of locking up, etc. I'm not saying that this is better, it just makes for a more satisfying drive because you know you're doing the work yourself without the aids of an electronic computer brain. | *bnr32 coupe is confuzzled* dude we were talking about the R32, not R35. of course the R35 drives itself lol it's still faster than the corvette though.
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08-27-2009, 11:04 PM
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#39 | | Head Moderator
Join Date: Dec 1982 Location: Great White Nor
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Originally Posted by BNR32_Coupe *bnr32 coupe is confuzzled* dude we were talking about the R32, not R35. of course the R35 drives itself lol it's still faster than the corvette though. | 
My bad, then.
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08-27-2009, 11:07 PM
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#40 | | Banned By Establishment
Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Shaugnessy
Posts: 2,610
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Originally Posted by godwin Differential is only part of the equation.. If you talk about limits of the envelope, the layout (eg Quattro is way out front due to transmission sharing) and engine choices come into play.. eg Haldex/SHAWD is inherently not that great due to transverse layout and front biased weight distribution. or Porsche is always limited by the weight and size of their flat 6.
I have covered different types of diffs before in other threads. ATTESA etc are brand names, but the guts have been changed so many times, the end result might be similiar but the control methods/ systems are different vastly. One example is how VW call older 4Motion Passat 4Motion, even though it is a Quattro.
SH-AWD is an electronically controlled diff which was first right of use was bought by Honda, but is now in many other systems.. eg BMW's M Diff, latest version of Quattro.
Thing to remember.. yes Trademark selling points / brand names stay the same... Control methods/algorithm change and so do the systems. In order to do proper comparison, you really have to make sure of the year, the OE supplier to the manufacturer and the algorithm and parts constraints.
Current best technology is a AWD with the ability to control the gearbox and the engine, with 2 -3 yaw and pitch sensors and electronically progressive control clutches for centre, front and rear diffs.
I buy into the technologies because I know I am not infallible and it is nice to know there is a safety net when I mess up when I am going say over 100kph on a wet road around a corner. It is a bit counter intuitive.. if you don't want the computers cut into your driving style "aggressively".. the only way is to let it do manage more systems, eg if you use DSG/PDK/DCT transmission, the traction computers change gears first before they cut throttle or in some cases locks the diffs first. You have to give it more options to interfere.. I mean if the only way for the computer is to cut throttle, it is going to just do that.
However all of this is really off topic of the thread. | Yeah so like.. lets steer this thing back on topic lol do you think attesa is a training wheel system? do you think that there's a little bit of descrimination here towards GTR's specifically (R32~R35)? if so, what do you think causes people to dislike one of japans definition of a "supercar" ?
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08-27-2009, 11:09 PM
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#41 | | Banned By Establishment
Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Shaugnessy
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Originally Posted by Lomac
My bad, then. | AHEM *looks at thanks button on bottom right corner*
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08-28-2009, 11:29 AM
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#42 | | 2x Variable Nockenwellen Steuerung
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They are not training wheels.. much like the super duper swim suits improves swimmer swim times are not training items either. "Training wheels" implies those things can be removed, however in the latest GTR's case you can't.. even if you switch them off, you still have the weight penalty.
Look, Nissan designed the GTR to try to do everything for everyone.. however we all know you cannot optimize a car design if you try to do everything. You want AWD, you get extra weight and drivetrain inefficiencies, there is just no way around it.
I think people should compare cars in the context of time.. eg people shouldn't compare new car prices with used car prices. Same should be done with car technology.. people should compare Quattro in 2010MY A4 car with say Subaru AWD in 2009MY Legacy. Spell out exactly what you want to compare, eliminates a lot of misunderstanding. Quote:
Originally Posted by BNR32_Coupe Yeah so like.. lets steer this thing back on topic lol do you think attesa is a training wheel system? do you think that there's a little bit of descrimination here towards GTR's specifically (R32~R35)? if so, what do you think causes people to dislike one of japans definition of a "supercar" ? | | |
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