| Vancouver Auto Chat 2016 VAC Community Head Moderator: Raid3n |
 | | 
12-09-2009, 07:37 AM
|
#51 | | RS.net, helping ugly ppl have sex since 2001
Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Vancouver
Posts: 8,858
Thanked 2,420 Times in 669 Posts
Failed 530 Times in 136 Posts
| Quote:
Originally Posted by Mugen EvOlutioN  yes it warms up faster becuz of higher rpm, but because every component in the car is still not up to normal operating temp, thus you can do more damage than good. When your car is ice cold, you wonna be as gentle to the throttle as possible, higher rpm = faster warm up because your piston now has to go up and down thousands of times per minute faster if u dont keep ur revs down, and the higher you rev the chance of your oil not doing its lubricating job when its cold. | No he said LOWER rpm in a HIGHER gear.
__________________
2014 Honda Civic Si | 
|  | |
12-09-2009, 07:40 AM
|
#52 | | Rs has made me the man i am today!
Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Vancouver
Posts: 3,109
Thanked 415 Times in 65 Posts
Failed 4 Times in 3 Posts
|
For my S2k, I'm told by our Tech who drives the same car to idle it to "2 bars" then drive off slowly.
| |
| | |
12-09-2009, 07:56 AM
|
#53 | | Banned (BBM)
Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Vancouver
Posts: 16,142
Thanked 627 Times in 368 Posts
Failed 1,106 Times in 390 Posts
| Quote:
Originally Posted by shenmecar No he said LOWER rpm in a HIGHER gear. | my bad , read it the opposite
| |
| | |
12-09-2009, 08:46 AM
|
#54 | | 14 dolla balla aint got nothing on me!
Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Maple Ridge
Posts: 654
Thanked 279 Times in 95 Posts
Failed 47 Times in 13 Posts
|
Can you explain this all in more detail, or point to where this information is coming from? I think I must be missing something here as this doesn’t make any sense to me at all.
1)The idea that condensation builds and then somehow lingers in the cylinders, despite the explosions of air and gas, the heat from the friction of pistons moving at 1k+ rpm and the spent mix being pushed out of the cylinder when the valve opens, is something I am having a hard time with. If the motor is running correctly, any condensation that actually manages to find its way into the cylinders would be expelled almost immediately. I have seen heads get horribly pitted due to people spraying massive amounts of water into the cylinders “for performance cooling”. However this is not nearly the same, and the fractional amount of water that may have found its way into the cylinders during sitting would be expelled so quickly it really shouldn’t matter. How idling would prevent this I don’t understand.
2)Anything rotating will warm up, not to mention the coolant and oil being able to circulate for a while before taking off. I understand that driving will warm this up faster, but I am still missing how warming the car up can do any damage in the first place.
The ONLY downside I can see to warming a car up is waste of gas and the effect on the environment. Both things we need to consider, but I cant get my head around this causing any type of damage to the motor.
Please explain in more detail!
| |
| | |
12-09-2009, 08:54 AM
|
#55 | | I contribute to threads in the offtopic forum
Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Vancouver
Posts: 2,629
Thanked 273 Times in 90 Posts
Failed 62 Times in 32 Posts
|
Why people still do this archaic practice is completely beyond me. 2 mins a day for 4 months out of the year = 3h of idling, or about half a tank of gas. Then people do this again after they go for lunch, get off work, after dinner, after the movie.. what a waste of gas. 
This isn't 1970, guys. http://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/transportatio...cts.cfm?attr=8 Quote:
Ready to Use Facts
1. Idling gets you nowhere – and it can be costly. Excessive idling wastes a significant amount of fuel and money and generates needless greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions. If drivers of light-duty vehicles avoided idling by just three minutes a day, over the year Canadians would collectively save 630 million litres of fuel and 1.4 million tonnes of carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions, and $630 million in fuel costs (assuming a fuel cost of $1.00/L).
2. Warming up the vehicle means more than warming the engine. The tires, transmission, wheel bearings and other moving parts also need to be warmed up for the vehicle to perform well. Most of these parts don't begin to warm up until you drive the vehicle.
3. Any more than ten seconds of idling uses more fuel than is required to restart the engine. However, the break-even time to offset any potential incremental maintenance costs to the starter or battery is under 60 seconds. So, as a guideline, if you're stopped for more than 60 seconds – except in traffic – turn off the engine.
4. For the average vehicle with a 3-litre engine, every 10 minutes of idling costs over one quarter of a litre (over 1 cup) in wasted fuel. Keep in mind that every litre of gasoline you use produces about 2.3 kilograms of carbon dioxide.
5. If you're going to be stopped for more than 60 seconds – except in traffic – turn the engine off. Unnecessary idling wastes money and fuel, and produces greenhouse gases that contribute to climate change.
6. Contrary to popular belief, excessive idling is not an effective way to warm up your vehicle, even in cold weather. The best way to warm it up is to drive it. In fact, with today's computer-controlled engines, even on cold winter days, no more than two to three minutes of idling is usually enough warm-up time before starting to drive. This also reduces fuel consumption and GHG emissions.
7. You can help reduce the impact of cold starts – and reduce idling times – by using a block heater on cold winter days. This device warms the coolant, which in turn warms the engine block and lubricants. The engine will start more easily and reach its proper operating temperature faster.
8. You don't need to leave a block heater plugged in overnight to warm the engine – two hours is more than enough. In fact, you can use an automatic timer to switch on the block heater two hours before you leave. At -20°C, block heaters can improve overall fuel economy by as much as 10 percent. For a single short trip at -25°C your fuel savings could be in the order of 25 percent.
9. A poorly-tuned engine uses up to 15 percent more energy when idling than a well-tuned engine. Keeping your vehicle properly maintained according to the manufacturer's suggested maintenance schedule is a key to fuel efficiency and reduced GHG emissions.
10. Calculations drawn from a 1998 survey on driving habits suggests that in the peak of winter, Canadians voluntarily idle their vehicles for a combined total of more than 75 million minutes a day – equal to one vehicle idling for 144 years. We idle about 40 percent less in summer, but Canadian motorists still waste a significant amount of fuel and emit unnecessary greenhouse gas emissions.
11. Warming up a vehicle in the winter and cooling it down in the summer are the most common reasons given for idling! Surveys show that Canadians also idle while waiting for passengers, stopping at railroad crossings, waiting to park, running quick errands, sitting in drive-through lanes and when stopping to talk to an acquaintance or friend.
| I NEVER warm up my car, ever. Never have, never will. Just gotta scrape the exterior glass (I just do a "band" around my car at eye level, I'm lazy  ) and keep a rag inside the glove box to wipe the inside of the windshield when it fogs up during the first minute or 2 of driving. And it's common sense to be gentle on your engine when it's not warmed up yet; anyone who's not a retard with cars would know that. Unless there's some regulation I don't know about that require people to WOT it out of their driveways and in their neighbourhoods.  at people who don't know glass scrapers exist. I guess some people have never set foot inside a Canadian Tire?
Last edited by slammer111; 12-09-2009 at 09:05 AM.
| |
| | |
12-09-2009, 08:57 AM
|
#56 | | RS.net, helping ugly ppl have sex since 2001
Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Revscene
Posts: 9,545
Thanked 7,559 Times in 2,527 Posts
Failed 434 Times in 126 Posts
| Quote:
Originally Posted by 91civicZC snip | 1. It's the prolonged time below operating temperature of the engine that causes issues of condensation. Once it's warmed up through either method, it is not a problem. Because it operates at lower-than-optimal temperature for a longer period of time, excess air in the combustion process cools the cylinder liners, resulting in incomplete combustion and condensation of unburned fuel on the cylinder walls. These deposits are eventually drawn into the engine sump where they contaminate the engine oil and reduce its effectiveness as a lubricant.
This is why it's it's common advice to change the oil more often during the winter than in summer.
2. The "damage" to the engine(I would more accurately describe it as excessive wear than 'damage') is from the info in point #1. However, other components may experience excessive wear as well if the driver drives as if the engine is warm, while all other components (hydraulic fluid, transmission fluid, differential fluid) are still cold. It would be redundant to idle-warm-up the engine for 5 minutes, only to drive gently for another 5 afterwards just to get the rest of the fluids up to temp.
__________________ Quote:
Originally Posted by skyxx Sonick is a genius. I won't go into detail what's so great about his post. But it's damn good! | 2010 Toyota Rav4 Limited V6 - Wifey's Daily Driver
2009 BMW 128i - Daily Driver
2007 Toyota Rav4 Sport V6 - Sold
1999 Mazda Miata - Sold
2003 Mazda Protege5 - Sold
1987 BMW 325is - Sold
1990 Mazda Miata - Sold 100% Buy and Sell Feedback | |
| | |
12-09-2009, 09:09 AM
|
#57 | | 14 dolla balla aint got nothing on me!
Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Maple Ridge
Posts: 654
Thanked 279 Times in 95 Posts
Failed 47 Times in 13 Posts
|
I understand the theory then, not sure I buy it as factual. Do you have somewhere that’s done any testing on it that we could read up on?
| |
| | |
12-09-2009, 09:14 AM
|
#58 | | JDMEK9Mod | DogWhisperer
Join Date: May 2007 Location: Richmond
Posts: 14,567
Thanked 5,522 Times in 1,717 Posts
Failed 101 Times in 61 Posts
| Quote:
Originally Posted by RabidRat huh. seriously? didn't know this. | Quote:
Originally Posted by hk20000 True for Toyotas.
Not true for Mitsubishi (there are NO water valves in the system)
I think not true for Hondas as well, what you want to check is if there's a water valve where your heater system connects to your engine. Some cars change the interior temp by letting hot water into the heater core some just change the amount of ventilation that actually goes through the core. | my DD is a 1990 EF Dx, cable clutch and transmission. as for where the heater system connects, i don't know lol. all i know is, if i start the engine with the heat on full blast, it takes 3-5 minutes longer to warm up the engine (going by what it indicates on the cluster here) compared to when i leave it at cold. Also, if persay i turn the heater on before the engine has reached its normal running temp, the needle will go back down to cold on the cluster.
i have never seen that on any other car i've driven and i can't explain it; can someone here?
| |
| | |
12-09-2009, 09:17 AM
|
#59 | | Banned (BBM)
Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Vancouver
Posts: 16,142
Thanked 627 Times in 368 Posts
Failed 1,106 Times in 390 Posts
|
its ok half tank of gas wasted because of idling after 6 months is only $20 bux or so, for that i rather have my ass warmed up rather than freezing my balls off  | |
| | |
12-09-2009, 09:23 AM
|
#60 | | JDMEK9Mod | DogWhisperer
Join Date: May 2007 Location: Richmond
Posts: 14,567
Thanked 5,522 Times in 1,717 Posts
Failed 101 Times in 61 Posts
|
i calculate my fuel mileage every tank of gas. i actually noticed it IMPROVED slightly rather than getting worse because of the extra idling time (6.93L/100km vs 7.00L/100km).
| |
| | |
12-09-2009, 09:25 AM
|
#61 | | OMGWTFBBQ is a common word I say everyday
Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Coquitlam
Posts: 5,324
Thanked 3,782 Times in 1,242 Posts
Failed 533 Times in 187 Posts
|
Ya, definitely notice my drive train when it's cold. 30 year old transmissions are a little sensitive, i take it easy when i drive off after warming the engine up. Usually don't' go past 3k or so.
__________________
'16 Ram 1500
| |
| | |
12-09-2009, 09:26 AM
|
#62 | | OMGWTFBBQ is a common word I say everyday
Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Coquitlam
Posts: 5,324
Thanked 3,782 Times in 1,242 Posts
Failed 533 Times in 187 Posts
| Quote:
Originally Posted by spoon.ek9 i calculate my fuel mileage every tank of gas. i actually noticed it IMPROVED slightly rather than getting worse because of the extra idling time (6.93L/100km vs 7.00L/100km). | I would believe this. If I remember correctly on my old car if I drove it right away when it was cold I think the AFR's read really rich until it warmed up... and that car took a while to warm up.
__________________
'16 Ram 1500
| |
| | |
12-09-2009, 09:26 AM
|
#63 | | JDMEK9Mod | DogWhisperer
Join Date: May 2007 Location: Richmond
Posts: 14,567
Thanked 5,522 Times in 1,717 Posts
Failed 101 Times in 61 Posts
|
^ me too, after the short idling period i still drive slowly until everything has warmed up correctly.
| |
| | |
12-09-2009, 10:08 AM
|
#64 | | I contribute to threads in the offtopic forum
Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Vancouver
Posts: 2,629
Thanked 273 Times in 90 Posts
Failed 62 Times in 32 Posts
| Quote:
Originally Posted by Mugen EvOlutioN its ok half tank of gas wasted because of idling after 6 months is only $20 bux or so, for that i rather have my ass warmed up rather than freezing my balls off | Except during the winter most people do the warmup thing a) several times during the day, and b) for a whole lot more than 2 minutes. That's a lot of bbt $ gone.
Oh, and warm balls = lower sperm count. | |
| | |
12-09-2009, 10:44 AM
|
#65 | | Everyone wants a piece of R S...
Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Vancouver
Posts: 392
Thanked 22 Times in 8 Posts
Failed 0 Times in 0 Posts
| Quote:
Originally Posted by sonick 1. It's the prolonged time below operating temperature of the engine that causes issues of condensation. Once it's warmed up through either method, it is not a problem. Because it operates at lower-than-optimal temperature for a longer period of time, excess air in the combustion process cools the cylinder liners, resulting in incomplete combustion and condensation of unburned fuel on the cylinder walls. These deposits are eventually drawn into the engine sump where they contaminate the engine oil and reduce its effectiveness as a lubricant.
This is why it's it's common advice to change the oil more often during the winter than in summer.
2. The "damage" to the engine(I would more accurately describe it as excessive wear than 'damage') is from the info in point #1. However, other components may experience excessive wear as well if the driver drives as if the engine is warm, while all other components (hydraulic fluid, transmission fluid, differential fluid) are still cold. It would be redundant to idle-warm-up the engine for 5 minutes, only to drive gently for another 5 afterwards just to get the rest of the fluids up to temp. | There seems to be no basis on the laws on physics and thermodynamics with those arguments, if there are, then please do explain further. I do agree that idling the engine does not warm up the transmission, and it requires driving the car to warm it up, that is a given. While i'm no expert in i.c. engines, those arguments do not support the theory that idling the engine prior to "warm up" causes damage to the engine with the mechanism you described. The adiabatic flame temperature of a combustion event is on the order of magnitude of thousands on degrees F. The combustion in an i.c. engine is far from ideal, it is not adiabatic, not complete combustion, and dissociation takes place, however, the temperature is still extremely high relative to the environment. The temperature will be what it is (depending on afr), whether the engine is warmed up will have minimal effect (relative to afr). I am not convinced the water will condense out of a vapour mixture onto a surface hotter than the mixture.
You also mentioned, and i quote "Because it operates at lower-than-optimal temperature for a longer period of time, excess air in the combustion process cools the cylinder liners, resulting in incomplete combustion and condensation of unburned fuel on the cylinder walls."
Where is this excess air coming from? Correct me if i'm wrong, but i believe most cars tend to run rich after a cold start. It it is running in closed loop, then it would be running at stoich. Even if it were true that the engine is running lean, that statement contradicts itself. Running lean will help the reaction of hydrocarbons going to carbon dioxide, with excess oxygen/nox.
| |
| | |
12-09-2009, 10:50 AM
|
#66 | | RS.net, helping ugly ppl have sex since 2001
Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Revscene
Posts: 9,545
Thanked 7,559 Times in 2,527 Posts
Failed 434 Times in 126 Posts
|
^ Awesome post. If the actual technical facts or test are out there, I'd be interested in reading as well whether it confirms or debunks what I've been led to believe.
All my personal information from reading online from various non-scientific sources and hearsay from various mechanics and such where pretty much every instance says its better to not idle to operating temperature than to do so.
__________________ Quote:
Originally Posted by skyxx Sonick is a genius. I won't go into detail what's so great about his post. But it's damn good! | 2010 Toyota Rav4 Limited V6 - Wifey's Daily Driver
2009 BMW 128i - Daily Driver
2007 Toyota Rav4 Sport V6 - Sold
1999 Mazda Miata - Sold
2003 Mazda Protege5 - Sold
1987 BMW 325is - Sold
1990 Mazda Miata - Sold 100% Buy and Sell Feedback | |
| | |
12-09-2009, 11:00 AM
|
#67 | | Everyone wants a piece of R S...
Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Vancouver
Posts: 392
Thanked 22 Times in 8 Posts
Failed 0 Times in 0 Posts
| Quote:
Originally Posted by Leopold Stotch i read in my mom's owner's manual that driving at lower rpm in higher gears will help the engine warm up quicker. | I'm slightly skeptical about that. I'm not sure if it warms up faster or not, but low rpm/high load operations should generally be avoided. You want stable hydrodynamic lubrication for your crank bearings. ie the 2 metal surfaces with relative velocity with each other actually floats, and are not in direct contact. For this to happen, you need enough relative velocity(engine speed). The load also can not go above the point at which the file become unstable(throttle).
| |
| | |
12-09-2009, 11:04 AM
|
#68 | | 14 dolla balla aint got nothing on me!
Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Maple Ridge
Posts: 654
Thanked 279 Times in 95 Posts
Failed 47 Times in 13 Posts
| Quote:
Originally Posted by ronald55555 There seems to be no basis on the laws on physics and thermodynamics with those arguments, if there are, then please do explain further. I do agree that idling the engine does not warm up the transmission, and it requires driving the car to warm it up, that is a given. While i'm no expert in i.c. engines, those arguments do not support the theory that idling the engine prior to "warm up" causes damage to the engine with the mechanism you described. The adiabatic flame temperature of a combustion event is on the order of magnitude of thousands on degrees F. The combustion in an i.c. engine is far from ideal, it is not adiabatic, not complete combustion, and dissociation takes place, however, the temperature is still extremely high relative to the environment. The temperature will be what it is (depending on afr), whether the engine is warmed up will have minimal effect (relative to afr). I am not convinced the water will condense out of a vapour mixture onto a surface hotter than the mixture.
You also mentioned, and i quote "Because it operates at lower-than-optimal temperature for a longer period of time, excess air in the combustion process cools the cylinder liners, resulting in incomplete combustion and condensation of unburned fuel on the cylinder walls."
Where is this excess air coming from? Correct me if i'm wrong, but i believe most cars tend to run rich after a cold start. It it is running in closed loop, then it would be running at stoich. Even if it were true that the engine is running lean, that statement contradicts itself. Running lean will help the reaction of hydrocarbons going to carbon dioxide, with excess oxygen/nox. |
I knew I wasn’t the only one who this seemed odd to.
I would say the people who have been saying this to you Sonick are either very confused, or are looking to try and have people cut down on idle time because of environmental concerns.If you are in conact with any of these folks who have told you this, try and get some actual reasoning out of them.
While I am all for cutting down on our environmental impact, I still dont think the argument being brought up with you is a factual one for causing engine damage. "Cold" is a reative term when it comes to temps inside a motor and cylinders.
| |
| | |
12-09-2009, 11:10 AM
|
#69 | | RS.net, helping ugly ppl have sex since 2001
Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Revscene
Posts: 9,545
Thanked 7,559 Times in 2,527 Posts
Failed 434 Times in 126 Posts
| Quote:
Originally Posted by 91civicZC I knew I wasn’t the only one who this seemed odd to.
I would say the people who have been saying this to you Sonick are either very confused, or are looking to try and have people cut down on idle time because of environmental concerns.If you are in conact with any of these folks who have told you this, try and get some actual reasoning out of them.
While I am all for cutting down on our environmental impact, I still dont think the argument being brought up with you is a factual one for causing engine damage. "Cold" is a reative term when it comes to temps inside a motor and cylinders. | True, perhaps the technical reasoning behind the actual excessive engine wear claims are sketchy, but overall I still believe the action of not idling to operating temp is still better than doing so because of the the warm-up of other components and such. Either way, I am interested in hearing about it if anybody finds any hard facts.
If there's technical information out there that suggests idling to temp is BETTER than not idling and driving gently, I'd be glad to hear it and apologize for giving bad advice.
Personally I really think about the environmental impact, just whatever is best for the car lol.
__________________ Quote:
Originally Posted by skyxx Sonick is a genius. I won't go into detail what's so great about his post. But it's damn good! | 2010 Toyota Rav4 Limited V6 - Wifey's Daily Driver
2009 BMW 128i - Daily Driver
2007 Toyota Rav4 Sport V6 - Sold
1999 Mazda Miata - Sold
2003 Mazda Protege5 - Sold
1987 BMW 325is - Sold
1990 Mazda Miata - Sold 100% Buy and Sell Feedback | |
| | |
12-09-2009, 11:24 AM
|
#70 | | resident Oil Guru
Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Vancouver
Posts: 7,716
Thanked 10,457 Times in 1,794 Posts
Failed 1,065 Times in 267 Posts
|
The discussion in here is very interesting.
It'd be interesting to see a comparison of two cars over a lifetime, one always warmed up slowly, one driven right away, both driven similarly.
It's possible that there wouldn't be any difference in engine longevity at all, given the cold car wasn't redlined constantly, when completely cold.
| |
| | |
12-09-2009, 12:11 PM
|
#71 | | Everyone wants a piece of R S...
Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Vancouver
Posts: 392
Thanked 22 Times in 8 Posts
Failed 0 Times in 0 Posts
|
You did bring up a valid point about warming up other components such as the drivetrain. A lot of people only warm up their engine, then proceed to driving the car normally. Personally, I warm up the engine by idling AND i take it easy once i start driving.
As for the environmental impact, and wallet impact, I think it's actually debatable. There's no doubt that idling the car results in an overall efficiency of 0%, or 0 mpg. But the efficiency of the engine itself is actually quite good, especially in newer cars. It consumes very little gas, and produce very little harmful gases. With that in mind, what if we look at the grand scheme of things. If a car was never allowed to warm up in its lifetime, maybe the engine will fail sooner compared to a car that had always been warmed up on a cold start. What is the total environmental impact of each car? Dos scrapping car A earlier (making the owner buy another car earlier), have a greater or less environmental impact than the total amount of time car B spent in idling? How does the amount of money needed to repair the engine in car A(or amount of money to buy a new car), compare to the extra gas bill that went into idling car B?
There are really no right answers to those questions, it depends on the car, and it depends on you ask. Just something to ponder about. On a side note, from manufacturing to scrapping, a Prius has about the same environmental impact as a Hummer. (quoted from an old professor/engineer, I can not confirm the validity of this statement) The point is, we have to think about the environment impact as a whole, not just at specific stages of a product's life.
| |
| | |
12-09-2009, 12:26 PM
|
#72 | | My name is Michael. J. Caboose, and I hate BABIES!
Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: MoI
Posts: 6,576
Thanked 1,421 Times in 678 Posts
Failed 71 Times in 51 Posts
|
My car doesn't move unless it's been warmed up. The engine will stall continuously. Yay for old rotaries.
__________________
"Can you match my resolve? If so then you will succeed. I believe that the human spirit is indomitable. If you endeavour to achieve, it will happen given enough resolve." -- Monty Oum Quote:
Originally Posted by STATUS105 IF I FIND YOU
I WILL EAT YOUR RICE! | | |
| | |
12-09-2009, 01:01 PM
|
#73 | | Banned (BBM)
Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Vancouver
Posts: 16,142
Thanked 627 Times in 368 Posts
Failed 1,106 Times in 390 Posts
| | |
| | |
12-09-2009, 03:03 PM
|
#74 | | I contribute to threads in the offtopic forum
Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Vancouver
Posts: 2,629
Thanked 273 Times in 90 Posts
Failed 62 Times in 32 Posts
| Quote:
Originally Posted by Mugen EvOlutioN | You betcha. Why, you only know about sperm gain?  | |
| | |
12-09-2009, 09:12 PM
|
#75 | | Banned (BBM)
Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Vancouver
Posts: 16,142
Thanked 627 Times in 368 Posts
Failed 1,106 Times in 390 Posts
|  lol wtf dude ahahaha
ic wat u did there
Siemens taught u about semens
| |
| | | |
Posting Rules
| You may not post new threads You may not post replies You may not post attachments You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
| | |
All times are GMT -8. The time now is 05:32 PM.
|
You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!
The banners on the left side and below do not show for registered users!
