Most unaffordable housing market in the world? Vancouver.

[goo3]

Originally Posted by Lomac

Funny... I used to commute from Langley to DT Van for a couple years. Took me no more than 45 minutes each way. You can keep your shoebox apartment with a view of Grouse. I'm content with having a large house on a nice plot of land that's covered in trees. It's nice being able to have your own garage/driveway to work on cars during the day, and a backyard where I can light up my firepit at night and have a giant bonfire with a dozen buddies without having to worry about keeping the neighbours awake.

Originally Posted by Death2Theft

So you get a big fat backyard to enjoy what 7 hours a week? Since it rains like crazy your probally not even going to get that much use out of it.
Lets just say you'll wind up spending more time commuting than you will in your yard. So you better enjoy it.

Having choices is good. Then everyone's happy. Except for ppl who think they're entitled to a big cheap house right downtown. And ppl who complain about long commutes.

[Lomac]

Originally Posted by goo3

Having choices is good. Then everyone's happy. Except for ppl who think they're entitled to a big cheap house right downtown. And ppl who complain about long commutes.

Hey, I don't complain about long commutes. Considering roughly twice a month I go on a random 1000km road trip purely because I like driving, sitting in rush hour is fine. Although to be fair, I currently work five minutes away from my house, so the only rush hour I have to contend with is waiting for a train to cross the Langley Bypass.

I could live in Vancouver, sure. However, I chose not to simply because I prefer the slightly more laid back atmosphere of a smaller city where the tallest building is barely as tall as the trees in my backyard. For those times I feel the need to visit downtown, I have no issues contending with traffic and the high priced parking (okay, to be fair, transiting from Langley to Vancouver is an absolute bitch). I know it's the price I pay by living on the east side of the Fraser River.

And you know what? I wouldn't have it any other way. As I said in my last post, it's my opinion. It might not be yours, but that's okay.

[goo3]

Yes, shoebox or big house, you have to make tradeoffs and having more choices is a good thing. I'm not saying one is better than the other cuz everybody has different needs.

[cheapskate]

Originally Posted by Lomac

Hey, I don't complain about long commutes. Considering roughly twice a month I go on a random 1000km road trip purely because I like driving, sitting in rush hour is fine. Although to be fair, I currently work five minutes away from my house, so the only rush hour I have to contend with is waiting for a train to cross the Langley Bypass.

I could live in Vancouver, sure. However, I chose not to simply because I prefer the slightly more laid back atmosphere of a smaller city where the tallest building is barely as tall as the trees in my backyard. For those times I feel the need to visit downtown, I have no issues contending with traffic and the high priced parking (okay, to be fair, transiting from Langley to Vancouver is an absolute bitch). I know it's the price I pay by living on the east side of the Fraser River.

And you know what? I wouldn't have it any other way. As I said in my last post, it's my opinion. It might not be yours, but that's okay.

I respect your reasoning and I think you made the smart for your particular lifestyle.

The dolts I was referring to in my earlier post refers to those who lack even the most elementary of logic and reasoning skills (unfortunately most suburbanites from my experience) and simply decide to settle into the suburban lifestyle because they actually believe they are saving money and totally discount the tremendous costs (both in health, money, and quality of life) of commuting hours every day, literally trading years of their life for the sake of having a extra bathroom or two.

For a lot of people, that is, those that work from home or those that work close to home, suburbs may be the optimal choice.

[cheapskate]

Originally Posted by Impulse_x

I personally disagree on the "talking to rich people." 9 out of 10 "rich people" will not tell you exactly how they got there. I mean, if you had your own refined way that was making you big money, would you share it? There's always exceptions of course, (family members, etc.) But most others will just tell you "investing and saving" in a fancier way.

I agree and disagree with your analysis. First, we have to understand that rich people can be roughly be divided into two groups.

The first group consists of those that most people think are wealthy. The ones typically seen driving BMW's and wearing expensive brand name clothes. From my experience and research (books, academic studies) these types tend not to possess much true wealth and/or they are just very insecure rich people i.e. Conrad Black. It is best to stay away from these insecure types, they may know how to make a buck or two but they have not developed a workable life philosophy. And because they are extremely insecure and volatile, they see everyone as a competitor or worse sub-human. They will lead you down the path of ruin. Their telltale sign is insecurity and thus a propensity to brag, show off or put others down.

The second group of wealthy individuals consists of those that have built true wealth, and has done it the traditional way (re: The Millionaire Next Door). These folks not only worked hard for their money but have also developed a meaningful philosophy of life along the way. They deplore lazy and stupid individuals. They deplore those that envy their wealth and yet fail to recognize how hard they had to work to achieve it. They deplore get "get rich quick schemes" (i.e. noobs flipping real estate). This group of wealthy individuals have a deep desire to give back to their communities. They're also eager to share their wisdom to those that they feel are genuinely interested in their philosophies. One needs to spend a lot of time and effort to gain their trust before they will share their wisdom. This is because they value their time highly and also they don't want to waste valuable effort on those who they don't think will be able to understand or put to use their wisdom anyways (i.e. stupid/lazy people). A great number of these individuals have also felt the need to put into writing their wisdom so they can reach a broader audience. Turner, Buffet, Jim Rogers, Sorros to name but a few. If you don't have access to the individual, the next best thing is to read their autobiographies. These are the types you want to learn from. Their defining traits are: hard work ethic, thrift, frankness, and having a long term perspective.

[RangeRover]

Glad I'm in real estate in Vancouver and not Detroit!

[Death2Theft]

Just curoius if vancouver rent price are typically just enough to cover mortages, does that mean in say NYC people are actually making profit on monthly rentals on top of payments?

Originally Posted by cheapskate

I am an aspiring political scientist/professor/writer/comentator. My limited knowledge in investing is from reading books and talking to rich people (as defined by real wealth and not just bling Re: The Millionaire Next Door). Though I do think that we all need at least a elementary understanding of investing lest we be slaves to money/employers our entire lives.

Also if I were a agent, wouldn't I encourage people to buy? LOL. In my posts, I am recommending people to rent (in Vancouver) and invest their money elsewhere.

[originalhypa]

Originally Posted by cheapskate

Their telltale sign is insecurity and thus a propensity to brag, show off or put others down.

that may appear to be true to you, but it's an ignorant ideology. I hate when people without a pot to piss in attempt to give me investment advice. There is a high propensity for individuals to try to make themselves appear important in certain circles, ie; our friend taylor. The biggest issue with this is simply that everyone has an opinion, and most are willing to spew said opinion. Why don't they take their own advice and make their own millions? Because there is no easy way to make money.

The bottom line is simply, stop talking about it and do it yourself. There is no magic way to become rich, outside of dating dtox. The key is just like you said, hard work, thriftyness, adept at budgeting, and no desire to look like a baller.

When you said this.

One needs to spend a lot of time and effort to gain their trust before they will share their wisdom. This is because they value their time highly and also they don't want to waste valuable effort on those who they don't think will be able to understand or put to use their wisdom anyways (i.e. stupid/lazy people). A great number of these individuals have also felt the need to put into writing their wisdom so they can reach a broader audience. Turner, Buffet, Jim Rogers, Sorros to name but a few. If you don't have access to the individual, the next best thing is to read their autobiographies. These are the types you want to learn from. Their defining traits are: hard work ethic, thrift, frankness, and having a long term perspective.

you were on the right track.

[willystyle]

Originally Posted by Death2Theft

Just curoius if vancouver rent price are typically just enough to cover mortages, does that mean in say NYC people are actually making profit on monthly rentals on top of payments?

You'll need to put in a down payment of at least 35-40% in Vancouver in order for your tenant's monthly rent to barely cover your monthly mortgage payment.

In NYC, with the exception of probably Manhattan, you can make a positive cash flow from your tenant's rent (after mortgage payment) without forking out 35-40% down payment.

[Ulic Qel-Droma]

I've learnt that bitching about being poor doesnt get you anything except disrespect lol.

just work hard and get more money through ANY means necessary. or move somewhere cheaper.

i realised, yes, we aren't living in the jungle, but we are still living in a "survival of the fittest" world. we live in a concrete jungle now, we created our own battleground. it's still a dog eat dog world, just the rules are different now. people have adapted at surviving in this environment. strength, hunting, speed and all that crap is secondary now. knowing how to make money is the survival skill.

but we all like bitching anyway, somewhere deep inside we hope someone will give us free money or cut us a tax break or give us free shit. we can always hope, but lol, it probably aint gonna happen.

life is hard, you have to make big sacrifices, to make big money. you can bitch about all those rich kids that have it easy, all you want, but somewhere down the line, one of their family members had to make big sacrifices and work their ass off so their family line doesn't have to.

it's all about risk. and how much you're willing to take.

Originally Posted by Anjew

not to mention ... goto china and try to get the same quality....

yeah you can. you just need connections and pay the premium. it's all about money and who you know.

[originalhypa]

Originally Posted by Ulic Qel-Droma

it's all about risk. and how much you're willing to take.

That's not all..... You need to work. Put in the effort. If it means surrounding yourself with real estate stats for the country and finding one area to purchase and live (or rent). Or it could be committing time to reading financial papers, and watching the stock market. Sometimes all it takes is one or two good investments to kick you into the next level. Ask anyone who started with an apartment and now lives in a house about building equity and assets.

But in the end it's not about asking the internet for advice. It's about finding your own financial interests and working with those. You get out what you put in. This works for both money and time.

[iEatClams]

Originally Posted by J-Chow

my parents just had an appraisal for their home last week.
In Richmond by no.1 road around steveston

They bought it in 1990 for $120 xxx
It is now worth $730 xxx.

Originally Posted by MajinHurricane

^^ my godmothers place (big lot) on steveston highway, I think got appraised for 1.5 million. She paid 60k for it in the 80's or 70's.

There are many people in these types of situations (on the west side) where they bought the home for $100,000 20 yrs ago and now it is worth over a million and then complaining about how their property taxes are so high.

Why don't they just SELL the property, profit the $1 million dollars and then rent a place near by. These people are soo lucky they don't even know it!!! They basically just won the lottery!!

It would take someone earning $50,000 a year 20 years to save up that much, assuming no property taxes and not spending a dime for expenses.

I would love to be in their shoes, buy my home for $100,000 20 yrs ago, sell it now for over a million. and rent a place near by. The million bucks in my bank account should last me till I die easily.

[Nightwalker]

Originally Posted by azndude69

It would take someone earning $50,000 a year 20 years to save up that much, assuming no property taxes and not spending a dime for expenses.

It's actually even WAY better than that. Earning 50k per year, you'll take home about $38,400. Nuke about half that for rent/food/bills/life (that's $1600/month to live on, which is a realistic amount). You've got $19,200 per year of actual savings.

Saving that much per year would mean over 52 years to hit 1 million.

[spike_spiegel]

Originally Posted by Nightwalker

rent/food/bills/life (that's $1600/month to live on, which is a realistic amount)

If you are trying to be realistic, you might want to start with not assuming someone is not gonna invest that 20k savings every year. With your math that is just someone putting their 20k into a savings account with no interest, which makes no fucking sense.

[Nightwalker]

Originally Posted by spike_spiegel

If you are trying to be realistic, you might want to start with not assuming someone is not gonna invest that 20k savings every year. With your math that is just someone putting their 20k into a savings account with no interest, which makes no fucking sense.

70% of families in Canada are in consumer debt. The median consumer debt of families in Canada is $29,000.

Stats are old, probably worse now. Source: http://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/oca-bc....g/ca02111.html

Frankly, I'm being an optimist.

Being a millionaire is a pretty awesome thing.

[Qmx323]

just having no debt is pretty awesome

[penner2k]

Originally Posted by Ulic Qel-Droma

just work hard and get more money through ANY means necessary. or move somewhere cheaper.

And that is exactly why I packed up everything when I got home after Christmas and moved to Calgary. Everything about moving here just makes sense. Sure I'm gonna be working my ass off but I'm gonna be be making over $100k in the next year all while paying less taxes (if you make under $70k a year income tax is cheaper in BC since Alberta is 10% across the board but at the same time you save 7% when buying stuff) and lower cost of living. I'm even starting to like the winters here. Sure its cold but its dry.

[taylor192]

Originally Posted by originalhypa

that may appear to be true to you, but it's an ignorant ideology. I hate when people without a pot to piss in attempt to give me investment advice. There is a high propensity for individuals to try to make themselves appear important in certain circles, ie; our friend taylor.

I hate when people who got rich based on luck give out bad advice to others. That same luck is how my GF sits on $1.3M of equity while making $30K/yr without any investment knowledge. Thankfully she is different than many Vancouverites, like yourself, who look down on others who did not make the same equity in Vancouver real estate.

Not all of us were lucky enough to live here for the past decade, nor lucky enough to be the right age with the right savings to buy into the market at the right time.

cheapskate, since originalhypa is like any other lucky Vancouverite that looks down his nose at anything short of "millions" I'll set the record straight: I was lucky enough to buy into the Ottawa market in 2004 at age 25 and made $100K selling my property at age 31. Combined with aggressively saving in my RRSP and investment account I have about a quarter million in the bank at age 32. It may not be the millions that originalhypa has made, yet for most 32yo it is pretty good.

I know how I made my money. I can admit a large part of it was luck and cannot be repeated today so I cannot and will not give the same advice to those starting out. Real estate is a bad investment right now, cap rates are ~3% in Vancouver, or less than much safer investments. originalhypa can even confirm this.

[Meowjin]

not this again.

Lets just put it this way.

Unless you have good business sense or a working professional (essentially making more than 60k a year) unless your wife makes the same you do you will never own real estate in the gvrd at these prices.

There. I just saved you two 7 pages worth of useless arguing.

Example of one doesn't count. I can give you countless examples of people who were stingy since 19 and are now 30 and just put down a downpayment on a place for 250-300k. It would be a shame if their 11 years of hard work collapsed in on themselves.

Sadly, this is not the case for most vancouverites, as different people have different expenses. Hell, if I wanted to live a horrible life I can roughneck it for the next 10 years. Just because most can live at home with parents to feed them in their million dollar homes and dull it out doesn't mean everyone else can.

Want to fix the problem? Stop immigration. Seriously. I want to see examples of immigrants who are buying up these million dollar homes and contributing anything to our society job wise. I'm not talking about resteraunts here or a retail store. We should screen them better so that these immigrants don't come here just to live a easy life and put money in the pockets of the realtors or the politicians who are selling the province, but instead create jobs in different sectors, such as technology, healthcare etc... Then house prices will start to make more sense in Vancouver imo. I'd love to see vancouver become singapore.

Also tear down the endownment lands and build condo's like no tomorrow. Density will be a good thing.

Flame suit on.

ps. Fuck nimby'ists.

[Phat_R]

You can have a (town)house downtown for much less than 1 M

[Meowjin]

nice place dude.

[taylor192]

Originally Posted by MajinHurricane

not this again.

There. I just saved you two 7 pages worth of useless arguing.

and hopefully saved him from banning me again.

I understand his point about hard work and knowledge, yet I just think he, or many others for that matter, are unwilling to admit how much luck, good or bad, plays a role.

Originally Posted by MajinHurricane

Want to fix the problem? Stop immigration. Seriously.

Without immigration our population would be in decline and deflation would set in. This isn't a big deal for most people living day-to-day, paycheques go down yet so does the cost of everything else. Its our investments that suffer, decreasing instead of increasing... hard to save for retirement that way

Originally Posted by MajinHurricane

Also tear down the endownment lands and build condo's like no tomorrow. Density will be a good thing.

Flame suit on.

There's lots of available land for density without doing this I enjoy running there yet I do agree, increase density, stop expanding the burbs.

[UFO]

I often wonder how different things would be if I was 5 years older, what if I was 10 years older?... owing largely to the importance timing has played in the housing market in Vancouver over the past decade.

ie. our current condo was just assessed at $390k; in 2001 it was purchased for $148k. If I recall, even 2005 it was assessed at ~250k. However, brand new in 1995 it sold for 210k so the original owners who bought it as an investment lost 30%.

We were lucky that we had worked and saved aggressively during our school years while living at home, and were able to graduate free of student loans. We were able to put down a reasonable (5% downpayment and remainder amortized over 40 yrs is not what I consider reasonable for first time buyers, regardless of living in or renting out) downpayment and 3 years later, have about 50% of our condo's value in equity (hope I used the terminology correctly) through frugal but not cheap living, and only possible due to our 2 very average incomes.

If I had not gotten married, I think odds are I would probably still be living at home and sitting on a sizeable bank account. I do not consider Vancouver's rent cheap nor a bargain, maybe in comparison to the cost of owning, and would not have been inclined to move out and rent. All else being equal, if I were 5 or 10 years older at this same point in life, single, and ignoring the fact that I would be still living at home at 39, I would be kicking myself for not getting in the market and riding the wave of appreciation. However if I was the original owner of our current condo, I would also be kicking myself for losing 30% on the investment. So really in the end, as an investment, things can go either way. You can and must arm yourself with as much research, advice, and what have you, but at the end there is always the element of risk and loss, but also risk and gain.

For me this stuff is stressful business. We like to look at what we've gained so far as less of an investment but as a means to enjoy our city/home, while having access to family and friends that we grew up with. We don't plan to take the equity we've built to buy into another property and rent it out simply because we don't feel like there is enough headroom for the market to grow into to necessitate that risk. When we decide to upgrade from the condo, we aren't overly concerned with where the market is or headed since if we sell high, odds are we will be buying high. If the market crashes and we are forced to sell low, we will also buy low. As long as we have jobs and can make our payments, where the market is headed is not too important for us at this point since we will still need somewhere to live regardless.

Mad respect to guys like hypa and many others who took that risk early on, built on top of that risk, and are now being rewarded by it. Considering a simple change of fate or luck, if you believe in that, could have turned out disastrous and owners who have now cashed out large can potentially be sitting on 2, 3, 4 properties up for foreclosure. Hard work, research, etc etc can only HELP you avoid that, but at the end of the day I believe you are still at the disposal of lady luck to a certain degree or else the US market would not have collapsed the way it did. There are compelling arguments on both sides of where Vancouver's market is headed, and not all of these guys can be right.

Things are no doubt tough for first time buyers, and I don't foresee them getting easier any time soon. In almost all cases, it's very hard to make money without having money to start off with. The more money you have, the more money you CAN make, as long as you have the cajones to back it up and a bit of luck on your side. If the stock crash of 2008 was to happen tomorrow, I could make a killing on it knowing how the market would have recovered. But I wouldn't have had the balls to buy into something that seemed to dire and uncertain, at that time.

[johny]

Originally Posted by MajinHurricane

Want to fix the problem? Stop immigration. Seriously.

the best way to fix it is to pass law allowing the ownership of only one household in the GVRD per person, and they must live in it.

housing is not a game, it's not an investment to play with, it's a human right and these people trying to make money off it are interfering with my human right to have shelter over my head.

a house is something you buy, live in for 50 years, then pass on. and should be nothing more. and people's attitudes need to change to reflect this.


this would drop prices overnight to reasonable values. ~100k for condos and ~300k for houses. regular people would be able to afford to own, people would have lots more disposable income which would be put back into the economy. the economy would boom hard. and it would be a real economy, not a fake one based on falsely inflated housing values.

just imagine how busy restaurants, theaters, sporting events, ski mountains, travel agency's etc would be if family's had 100k mortgages instead of 800k mortgages. the city would boom and new jobs would be created everywhere.

[Nightwalker]

I love this thread. I bought my first place almost 2 years ago, just after the market dropped.