Toyota faces lawsuits over shrinking resale values

[Dragon-88]

Originally Posted by jlenko

Have you ever seen a Lexus' shift gate? It's hard enough to shift gears without being under the stress of a vehicle accelerating out of control:


http://z.about.com/d/cars/1/0/g/l/1/..._ShiftGate.jpg

You have to hit Neutral, which is right in the middle. Push too far, and you're not in Neutral anymore...

Gear lever shouldnt pass N to R unless brakes are depressed.

[hk20000]

dude it's directly UP from D without even the need to push sideways, my dick could pull that manuever...

[jlenko]

Maybe he was in sport mode... how the fuck do I know?

[ericthehalfbee]

There are a lot of reasons why you might not be able to select neutral.

What I find odd is that Toyota would mention the possibility of not being able to shift into neutral. This almost looks like they're admitting a possible fault or condition that would prevent you from shifting.

In this day of overblown lawsuits it just looks like they handed some "ammunition" to the lawyers by making such a statement.

[originalhypa]

Originally Posted by Marco911

This issue is being blown way out of proportion by the media. Give it 6 mts, and it will be a distant memory and have little to no effect on Toyota's sales.

Agreed.
And I put my money where my mouth is by buying a new Toyota, and shares during the last big drop in value. They have such a great product, and with new pricing on many models, they're poised to secure the number one spot as it should be. My GM costs me far more every year to fix cheaply made parts than it's even worth.

[Zulu]

Dear Retarded Customer, go fuck yourself.

Sincerely, Toyota.

[some_punk]

Originally Posted by Lomac

I haven't really read too much into this recall and the mechanics behind them, but does Toyota use drive by wire or cable?
Posted via RS Mobile

wire, cause the pedal actually returns and the PPS gets stuck inside and you cant stop it.

[ericthehalfbee]

Originally Posted by ericthehalfbee

I'd put money that Toyota will (or has already) add this feature to new cars and will update software in current vehicles.

And from the news today....

Toyoda promised a brake-override system in all future models worldwide that will add a safety measure against acceleration problems that are behind the recent massive recalls.

The system is a mechanism that overrides the accelerator if the gas and brake pedals are pressed at the same time.

The sad thing is when people read this it will look like Toyota is applying a band-aid fix to prevent runaway cars, even though most other manufacturers already have this feature in their vehicles.


To Marco911 and originalhypa, do you think NHTSA is blowing things out of proportion by continuing to investigate Toyota? Or should they have stopped once Toyota did the floor mat recall? How about in years past when NHTSA went after Ford and GM for major safety recalls? Do you think Toyota is being treated unfairly or differently from other manufacturers by NHTSA and/or the media?

[originalhypa]

I consider that there were two major gaffes by the NHTSA regarding Toyota.
The first was when the NHTSA announced that the recall wasn't actually voluntary, but that the NHTSA made Toyota recall the vehicles. This was rescinded the next day by the NHTSA as a "mis-communication".

The other gaffe was when the secretary of the NHTSA said, in congress, that Toyotas are not safe, and owners should not drive them. Again, this was taken back the next day.

The problem is that both of theses "false" statements affected Toyota's share price dropping it, and the overall value of the company drastically. Now, take into account the efforts the US gov't are going through in order to re-establish GM as the top, and the fact that the NHTSA is an arm of that same gov't, and the writing is on the wall.

[RRxtar]

^deserves a thanks for the insight, but a fail for the conspiracy theory it hints at.

[civic_rice]

so, we just purchased our second corrola. had an 07 and got a 10 becuase they were a lot cheaper payments then the 07 and a much nicer car. who cares about all the recalls. ford has one where the car could catch fire...anyone worried about that? im not a toyota fan by any means but they are good cars for a DD

[originalhypa]

Originally Posted by RRxtar

^deserves a thanks for the insight, but a fail for the conspiracy theory it hints at.

And why is that?
Is it that hard to comprehend that the US gov't found that a simple attack on Toyota's quality and character could give them some time to stop the financial bleeding that GMAC and GMC are going through?

It seems that the AFP, one of the largest and oldest news agencies agrees with me.

Is US bullying Toyota on recall?

By Mira Oberman (AFP) – Feb 3, 2010

CHICAGO — The US transportation chief's public rebukes of Toyota's handling of a massive safety recall have raised eyebrows, given the US government's major stake in rivals General Motors and Chrysler.

"The optics are terrible because -- and this is what happens when a government owns a company - the two companies that are going to gain the most out of this are General Motors and Chrysler," said Peter Morici, a professor at the University of Maryland's business school.

"But their behavior is consistent with the general policy of the US government, whether it's dealing with coffeemakers or cars."

Safety officials understand that product design mistakes are inevitable and will work to help companies correct the problem and alert consumers. But they will not tolerate a slow or weak response, Morici told AFP.

Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood sat down with reporters Wednesday to lay out a timeline of how US officials had "pushed Toyota to take corrective actions" on its pedal problems since 2007.

The meeting came a day after he issued a statement accusing the Japanese automaker of dragging its feet on recalling vehicles in danger of sudden, unintended acceleration due to pedals which could get trapped under floor mats or become "sticky."

He also caused a brief panic when he told a congressional panel that owners of 5.3 million Toyota vehicles affected by the recalls should "stop driving" them.

LaHood later sought to tone down his remarks, telling reporters: "What I meant to say and what I thought I said was if you own one of these cars or if you're in doubt, take it to the dealer and they're going to fix it."

But he insisted that safety officials "will continue to hold Toyota's feet to the fire to make sure that they are doing everything they have promised to make their vehicles safe."

Legislators meanwhile signaled that they would expand their probe, demanding answers on why Toyota's Tacoma trucks -- which have a different pedal assembly than the 5.3 million vehicles recalled -- were also experiencing problems with sudden, unintended acceleration.

Toyota's top US official, Yoshimi Inaba, is set to testify at a congressional hearing Wednesday.

LaHood's strong initial comments could cause some "hysteria, but to some extent, we are such a litigious society, he has no choice but to say that because of the lawsuits that are lined up," said Rebecca Lindland, an analyst with IHS Global Insight.

"If one more person is killed, they can say that the government didn't act; Toyota did not act."

Weston Konishi, an expert on Japan at the Mansfield Foundation think-tank, said he doubted either Washington or Tokyo wanted the Toyota flap to escalate.

"Toyota is now a real stakeholder in the US economy -- think of its auto plants and jobs -- so trying to score points against it would be somewhat self-defeating," he added.

Konishi said he could only see Toyota becoming the governments' business if the company cut off contracts with US manufacturers due to lack of confidence in quality control after the problems with the US-made pedals.

David Champion, director of automobile testing for Consumer Reports magazine, said the reaction to the recall was overblown.

"When you look at the statistics we are putting an awful lot of effort on a very small risk," he said.

"There has been something like 2,000 complaints of unintended acceleration in some 20 million Toyota vehicles -- it's almost like trying to find a needle in a haystack."

Champion lamented as "unfortunate" that it took the death of an off-duty California state trooper and three members of his family to prompt Toyota to issue a mass recall in September to address the problem.

But he said a congressional investigation was an "overreaction" and noted that the "sticky" pedal problem that caused Toyota to halt production and sales of eight models last month was not linked to any accidents or injuries.

"I'm sure it's going to hurt Toyota in the short term over the next year or so," Champion said.

"But if their products are as good as they have been in the past, we're going to see that Toyota's going to bounce back as Ford has from the Firestone (tire recall) fiasco."

[ivanz]

Originally Posted by Dragon-88

Gear lever shouldnt pass N to R unless brakes are depressed.

Even if you put it in R while going at speed, it wont engage until you stop. It is a well known way to turn on your rear view camera if you are cruising to a stop or something. At least on the IS/GS...
Also, the shift pattern is the exact same on my Mitsubishi, which most people with decent muscle motor skills could do without even looking.

[rcoccultwar]

Originally Posted by RRxtar

^deserves a thanks for the insight, but a fail for the conspiracy theory it hints at.

You know, it is good insight.

I dont really sense any hints of conspiracy theories from the poster though. Not over analyse characters on this site, but
Originalhypa doesnt really fall into the catagory of conspiracy theorist.
According to October's Psychology Today article on conspiracy theorist's, these people tend to be loner's, unsuccessful and they have the feeling that the "whole world is against them."

Now, I have to say that I think hypa definity has had some luck and good timing on his side for where he is today.

Back to the article though, Im waiting for a big court date..
You know, there are a lot of court case's that go through law without even a peep from the public eye.

Btw, the editor is kinda cute

[ericthehalfbee]

Originally Posted by originalhypa

I consider that there were two major gaffes by the NHTSA regarding Toyota.
The first was when the NHTSA announced that the recall wasn't actually voluntary, but that the NHTSA made Toyota recall the vehicles. This was rescinded the next day by the NHTSA as a "mis-communication".

The other gaffe was when the secretary of the NHTSA said, in congress, that Toyotas are not safe, and owners should not drive them. Again, this was taken back the next day.

The problem is that both of theses "false" statements affected Toyota's share price dropping it, and the overall value of the company drastically. Now, take into account the efforts the US gov't are going through in order to re-establish GM as the top, and the fact that the NHTSA is an arm of that same gov't, and the writing is on the wall.

Toyota has done the same thing. When the NHTSA said they had not found any problems with the Lexus that the officer in Cali was killed in, Toyota quickly issued a statement that "the NHTSA has found no fault with the vehicle" making it sound like the investigation was finished and there was no problem with the Lexus. In fact, the NHTSA stated they hadn't yet found a fault, but were still looking. NHTSA informed Toyota of this and Toyota had to retract their statement.

Toyota's press release for the recall even states "there have been no reported fatalities" when in fact there are 19 (as of the last time I checked).

I personally don't think Toyota is being treated unfairly. The NHTSA has vigorously gone after Ford, GM and others in the past for safety issues. I don't see the NHTSA as acting differently, but the timing is just unfortunate for Toyota and good for GM.

Another problem involves the psychology and mindset of the typical Toyota owner. They believe their vehicles are perfect and therefore have a lower than normal rate of reporting of incidents by owners than domestics do. Simply put, if 1,000 people driving a Ford have an incident of unintended acceleration, maybe 100 will actually report it and the rest will take responsibility for their mistake in pressing the wrong pedal. With a Toyota, you might get 10-20 that would report it because they believe their Toyota is "too good" to have such a problem.

Yet even with this difference, Toyota still has a significantly higher rate of unintended acceleration problems than the average for all makes. When you consider that Toyota drivers are less likely to report, this makes the real numbers far worse than what is being reported. This is why, for example, insurance companies are taking a closer look at these accidents and not blindly attributing them to "driver error" (which is the norm for insurance companies, because it usually is driver error).

Another example of the "psychology" of this issue, the number of accidents in Toyota vehicles having unintended acceleration have shot up since the announcement of the recall by Toyota. Part of this is people are now reporting what they previously would have called driver error hoping Toyota will somehow cover their screw up. Another part is the subconsious - if you're driving a vehicle that you believe has a sticky throttle problem, then you're more likely to have an accident because in the back of your mind you're almost expecting it to happen.

There have been several studies done over the years that show this to be true. One example is courtesy cars for collision repair facilities. They have a very high rate of accidents vs the general population. This was found because the driver who is getting their car fixed is in a different state of mind, questioning their abilities and being just plain flustered. Even though the accident could have been days earlier, they still have these thoughts and because of this they make more mistakes with the courtesy car (or with their newly repaired car they just got back). They aren't bad drivers, but for a brief period of time in the back of their mind they think they are.

BTW, the statistics for Toyota having a higher rate of unintended acceleration problems is from before the recall was made public, so it's more accurate than recent statistics.

[Marco911]

The only failure on Toyota's part was not to have the brake overrride feature installed where consumers riding the accelerator and the brake at the same time for longer than 1 second would result in cutting 95% of the power to the engine.


I conjecture that most accidents are not caused by sticking throttles but buy dumb toyota drivers that mistake the gas pedal for the brake pedal ala Audi 5000. If you look at the data that Toyota gave CTS (posted on CTS' website) http://www.ctscorp.com/publications/...s/nr100127.htm
there is no data supporting any stuck accelerator pedals, only a dozen or so instances of pedals returning slowly to its orginal position.

[orange7]

Originally Posted by ericthehalfbee

Toyota has done the same thing. When the NHTSA said they had not found any problems with the Lexus that the officer in Cali was killed in, Toyota quickly issued a statement that "the NHTSA has found no fault with the vehicle" making it sound like the investigation was finished and there was no problem with the Lexus. In fact, the NHTSA stated they hadn't yet found a fault, but were still looking. NHTSA informed Toyota of this and Toyota had to retract their statement.

Toyota's press release for the recall even states "there have been no reported fatalities" when in fact there are 19 (as of the last time I checked).

I personally don't think Toyota is being treated unfairly. The NHTSA has vigorously gone after Ford, GM and others in the past for safety issues. I don't see the NHTSA as acting differently, but the timing is just unfortunate for Toyota and good for GM.

Another problem involves the psychology and mindset of the typical Toyota owner. They believe their vehicles are perfect and therefore have a lower than normal rate of reporting of incidents by owners than domestics do. Simply put, if 1,000 people driving a Ford have an incident of unintended acceleration, maybe 100 will actually report it and the rest will take responsibility for their mistake in pressing the wrong pedal. With a Toyota, you might get 10-20 that would report it because they believe their Toyota is "too good" to have such a problem.

Yet even with this difference, Toyota still has a significantly higher rate of unintended acceleration problems than the average for all makes. When you consider that Toyota drivers are less likely to report, this makes the real numbers far worse than what is being reported. This is why, for example, insurance companies are taking a closer look at these accidents and not blindly attributing them to "driver error" (which is the norm for insurance companies, because it usually is driver error).

Another example of the "psychology" of this issue, the number of accidents in Toyota vehicles having unintended acceleration have shot up since the announcement of the recall by Toyota. Part of this is people are now reporting what they previously would have called driver error hoping Toyota will somehow cover their screw up. Another part is the subconsious - if you're driving a vehicle that you believe has a sticky throttle problem, then you're more likely to have an accident because in the back of your mind you're almost expecting it to happen.

There have been several studies done over the years that show this to be true. One example is courtesy cars for collision repair facilities. They have a very high rate of accidents vs the general population. This was found because the driver who is getting their car fixed is in a different state of mind, questioning their abilities and being just plain flustered. Even though the accident could have been days earlier, they still have these thoughts and because of this they make more mistakes with the courtesy car (or with their newly repaired car they just got back). They aren't bad drivers, but for a brief period of time in the back of their mind they think they are.

BTW, the statistics for Toyota having a higher rate of unintended acceleration problems is from before the recall was made public, so it's more accurate than recent statistics.

can someone please summarize this for me?
it's too goddam long...

[ericthehalfbee]

Originally Posted by Marco911

The only failure on Toyota's part was not to have the brake overrride feature installed where consumers riding the accelerator and the brake at the same time for longer than 1 second would result in cutting 95% of the power to the engine.


I conjecture that most accidents are not caused by sticking throttles but buy dumb toyota drivers that mistake the gas pedal for the brake pedal ala Audi 5000. If you look at the data that Toyota gave CTS (posted on CTS' website) http://www.ctscorp.com/publications/...s/nr100127.htm
there is no data supporting any stuck accelerator pedals, only a dozen or so instances of pedals returning slowly to its orginal position.

You're still missing two key points. First is that Toyota has a higher than average (and not just slightly higher) recorded number of cases per 1,000 vehicles of unintended acceleration.

Second, unlike the Audi 5000, black boxes in new cars record the throttle position and brake application status when there is an accident. This can tell you right away which pedals were being pressed at the time of the accident.


BTW, I don't know about NHTSA in the US, but as of right now Toyota is not allowing Transport Canada access to airbag computer black box data. Kinda makes you wonder why they would do that, doesn't it?

[Marco911]

Originally Posted by ericthehalfbee

Toyota has done the same thing. When the

Yet even with this difference, Toyota still has a significantly higher rate of unintended acceleration problems than the average for all makes. When you consider that Toyota drivers are less likely to report, this makes the real numbers far worse than what is being reported. This is why, for example, insurance companies are taking a closer look at these accidents and not blindly attributing them to "driver error" (which is the norm for insurance companies, because it usually is driver error).

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/the...sa-complaints/

I will go on the record to say that the incident today in California with the runaway Prius will prove to be a hoax.

[Lomac]

Originally Posted by Marco911

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/the...sa-complaints/

I will go on the record to say that the incident today in California with the runaway Prius will prove to be a hoax.

Those numbers are relatively meaningless. Oh, sure, they're great if you want to get an average of NHTSA complaints against certain manufacturers, but they're useless if you're looking for a proper pattern. As far as I'm concerned, they're all perceived issues, not actually problems. The only true way you can get proper data is by going through each company's warranty repairs and see what's been done. As well, that list is an average over many years. One company might have produced a shitty car between '01 and '04, but vastly improved afterwards. That would skew the relative complaint percent to them being merely average.

Oh, and MB, Smart and Porsche at the bottom? You can't tell me that's correct. The only way the latter two are able to place themselves at the bottom of the list would be because of the percentage of their cars on the road compared to Toyota and GM.

[Marco911]

Originally Posted by Lomac

Those numbers are relatively meaningless. Oh, sure, they're great if you want to get an average of NHTSA complaints against certain manufacturers,

The data shows that the media is overhyping this when they claim that the NHTSA has been inundated with complaints about Toyotas safety issues and unintended acceleration and that Toyota has been worrying about burying this issue.

-There is no problem with Toyota electronics.
-Toyota drivers are mistaking the gas from the brake
- There is a rare problem with accelerators being "sticky" - brakes are strong enough to bring the car to a safe stop for these types of issues. Toyota has addressed this issue and the floor mat issue. People need to move on...I don't know why this story still has legs. All the people crashing these toyotas and claiming it accelerated on their own are SENIORS.

There is no evidence that the CHP crash was anything other than a pedal stuck to the bottom of the floor mat.

[originalhypa]

I remember chatting with a cab driver in Vancouver a few weeks ago. He was driving a Prius and I asked how he liked it? He said after 20 years of driving a cab, he's driven everything from the Luminas to dodge minivans and everything in between. He said the Prius was the best car he's ever driven, and actually changed the face of cabs. He could let the thing sit idle without costing him profit, and his fuel costs were a third of what his domestic driving cohorts were putting down. Not to mention the lack of downtime. His 08' Prius had 300,000km on it, and had never had an issue. These are the kind of stories that ring true, not some retired jackass looking to cash in.

[Lomac]

Marco, I'm not disagreeing with the media overhyping the UA issue. I personally think 99% of all these new claims are bogus. I'm just saying that the raw data shown in the link doesn't tell much of a story.
Posted via RS Mobile

[Great68]

That link also doesn't differentiate the type of problem/complaint...

I wonder how many complaints are actually due to serious "Car is non-driveable" problems, vs less serious problems.

[Marco911]

Originally Posted by Lomac

Marco, I'm not disagreeing with the media overhyping the UA issue. I personally think 99% of all these new claims are bogus. I'm just saying that the raw data shown in the link doesn't tell much of a story.
Posted via RS Mobile

Then we agree, because the media is using this data to imply Toyotas have a high proportion of complaints for UA.