REVscene - Vancouver Automotive Forum

Lomac · 09-21-2010, 08:10 PM

I was going to originally post this in the new speeding/drinking and driving thread, but I felt it deserved its own thread.

For those of you complaining about speed limits being too low, here's the government's response to you. It’s quite long, but I assure you it’s well worth the read. At least it shows that someone out there is on our side, though whether or not these changes are implemented… who knows.

The following portions are excerpts of the "Review and Analysis of Posted Speed Limits and Speed Limit Setting Practices in British Columbia" and can be found Here, under the Engineering Branch of the Ministry of Transportation website.

Question 1. Are Ministry speed limits appropriate and consistent?

Based on an analysis of the available data and a field review of the road system, it is the opinion of the authors that the majority of posted speed limits in British Columbia are appropriate for conditions. There are notable exceptions as described below.

For example, the available speed information on rural divided freeways with full access control indicates that the 110 km/h maximum limit is too low. Typical operating 85th percentile speeds on these roads range between 116 km/h and 126 km/h. On these segments, a new maximum limit of 120 km/h should be considered. This new maximum limit would be 10 km/h higher than is found currently in other Canadian Provinces, however, it is consistent with the 120 km/h limit used in many western states in the United States.

There are also other multilane divided freeway segments in the Province that have freeway design characteristics, but contain a limited number of intersections. The available speed data and travel characteristics on these road segments also indicate that the posted 100 km/h limit is too low. For example, a segment of Trans-Canada Highway 1 between Vancouver and Hope is shown in Figure 4. This section has some right-in and right-out access points, but no at grade intersections. The 100 km/h maximum limit on this divided highway is the same limit that is posted on many rural two-lane highways. It would be appropriate to raise the limit on these and similar divided rural highways to 110 km/h, again considering the need to strike a balance between travel speeds and associated risks.

There are also a number of 80 km/h speed zones that appear to be set too low for conditions. These segments are scattered throughout the Province. For example, on Route 1 on Vancouver Island, between Goldstream Avenue and Nanaimo there are nine 80 km/h segments. On Route 19 between Nanaimo and Campbell River there are five 80km/h segments. While there are numerous issues and factors to consider, some sections within the segments have rural characteristics, which suggest that raising the limit is appropriate for road and access point conditions. It other segments it may not be appropriate to raise the limit due to uncontrolled access points that are frequently used, and sight distance limitations.

Question 3. Are there areas where the speed limit could be eliminated?

In the northern region of British Columbia, there are vast segments of rural highway that carry less than 500 vehicles per day. Examples include Route 37 from Kitimat to the Yukon border and Route 97 from Fort Nelson to the Yukon border. Most of these segments are two-lane paved roads with some gravel sections, which have little roadside signing and sparse roadside development. It is possible that posted speed limits have little impact because they do not provide useful information that the driver needs to negotiate the rural area, especially during night time and inclement weather conditions. Consideration can be given to eliminating the posted speed limits on these sections, however, there are concerns that drivers will increase speeds, and consequently, crashes may increase.

In addition to examining geometric conditons, crash information for the 5-year period 1997 through 2001 was examined. During the crash study period, the frequency of crashes was very low, i.e., typically approximately 0.05 crashes per kilometer per year which is equivalent to approximately 1 crash per kilometer every 20 years. It should be noted, however, that due to the remoteness of the area, it is probable that minor property damage only crashes are not reported, which distorts the true crash picture.

It is also important that should the decision be made to eliminate the speed limit in remote areas that consideration be given to informing the public of this condition by signing. It is anticipated that public information and press releases will be to various media outlets, but roadside signing should also be erected. Although a variety of possible sign messages could be used, it is suggested that the message “NOTICE No Posted Speed Limits Ahead Drive at a Safe and Reasonable Speed for Conditions.”

Transition Zones

Current practice in British Columbia is to use a transition speed zone in a rural area when entering or leaving an urban or built-up area. Most transition zones are typically less than one kilometer in length, but there are cases when the zones are two kilometers or more. For example, shown in Figure 6 is a transition zone which was extended beyond the developed area into the rural area.

Based on the author’s field review of numerous transition zones, and the limited speed data available for existing zones, it appears that motorists do not slow down in the transition zone because the limit is not based on road geometry and roadside development. Accordingly, the effectiveness of such zones is questionable. Consideration should be given to eliminating the transition zones where they are not supported by associated changes in road geometry, access points, etc. In other words, the speed limit should be based on conditions that are visible to the driver. The use of speed limit change ahead signs by MoT when speed limits are lowered for road geometry, roadside development, parking, pedestrian activity, etc. is a desirable and necessary practice.

Basic Speed Law

A review of the Motor Vehicle Act suggests that motorists must not exceed the statutory or posted speed limits in the Province. Excessive speeding is defined as driving at a speed greater than 40 km/h over the applicable limit. Careless driving is prohibited, i.e., a person must not drive a motor vehicle on a highway at a speed that is excessive relative to the road, traffic, visibility or weather conditions. While similar laws exist in the United States and other countries, most countries also have a basic speed rule which requires a motorist to drive at a speed that is reasonable and prudent for existing conditions. The purpose of the basic speed rule is to place the responsibility of speed choice on the driver who is in a better position to assess existing conditions and take appropriate action. Note that the basic speed law tells a driver he or she shall drive a reasonable and prudent speed for conditions. It is not a prohibited condition such as the “excessive speeding” or “careless driving law.”

In the States, the basic speed law tells the driver how they SHALL manage the speed of their vehicle. For example the Uniform Vehicle Code lists the Basic Speed Rule as a basis for a speed law violation as follows:
"No person shall drive a vehicle greater than is reasonable and prudent under the conditions and having regard to the actual and potential hazards then existing."

In Michigan, the basic speed law is:
"A person shall operate a vehicle at a careful and prudent speed not greater than nor less than is reasonable and proper, having due regard to the traffic, surface, and width of the highway and of any other condition then existing."

Also within the speed laws of each State are the "excessive speeding," "minimum speed rule," "racing," and other prohibited driver actions. British Columbia also has laws concerning "careless driving prohibited," slow driving," and "excessive speeding." These laws tell the driver what is PROHIBITED or what is not allowed.
On the other hand, the basic speed law tells the driver what they SHALL do at all times, with and without statutory limits or speed limit signs, i.e., drive at a reasonable and prudent speed for conditions. This puts the responsibility of selecting a safe speed always on the driver and not on the Province or jurisdiction. For example, a driver could be operating at a speed less than the posted speed limit, but could be in violation of the basic speed law because of heavy traffic or adverse weather conditions.
Section 144 (1) (c) of British Columbia law entitled "Careless driving prohibited," states that "a person must not drive a motor vehicle on a highway...at a speed that is excessive relative to the road, traffic, visibility or weather conditions." Again, this is a PROHIBITED condition. This section does not specifically tell the motorist to drive at a reasonable and prudent speed for conditions. In addition, careless driving also covers many other driver actions which are not necessarily related to vehicle speed.
Enactment of a basic speed rule is suggested for British Columbia. Currently a motorist may be operating below a fixed maximum limit set by the Province, but exceed the reasonable speed for conditions. Appropriate adjudications for violations of the basic speed law should also be established.

Should Speed Limits be Changed

Maximum speed limits posted on fixed-message signs are based on ideal traffic, environmental, and road conditions. The maximum limit should seem high to the majority of drivers, or it is not a maximum limit. When less than ideal conditions exist, the driver must adjust their vehicle speed that is appropriate for conditions. One of the most important objectives in posting a speed limit is to inform the driver of a reasonable and prudent speed for the best conditions. Based on a comprehensive review of geometric, land use, traffic, speed, and crash data on road segments with posted speed limits, and on-site observations, the following findings are offered. The maximum speed limit in British Columbia is 110 km/h, which includes rural multilane divided facilities with full control of access. Operating 85th percentile speeds on these roads range between 116 and 126 km/h. The crash rates are below the critical rate. In other countries with mountainous terrain such as Austria, Finland, France, Italy, etc. maximum speed limits range from 120 to 140 km/h. In western States in the US, the maximum limit is generally 120 km/h on these facilities. The Ministry should consider establishing a new maximum limit of 120 km/h for rural multilane divided roads with full access control.
The posted speed limits on the majority of the Provincial two-lane segments are 90 and 100 km/h. Based on numerous speed limit studies conducted in the US, 85th percentile speeds on two-lane tangent segments range from 93 to 104 km/h. Actual 85th percentile speeds reported in British Columbia range from 92 to 111 km/h. The evidence suggests a maximum speed limit of 105 km/h for rural two-lane highways, however, as the MoT posts limits in 10 km/h increments, the maximum limit should remain at 100 km/h. Suggestions are offered to raise some limits on existing 90 km/h segments.

Lomac · 09-21-2010, 08:12 PM

The one thing that intrigues me the most is the Basic Speed Law and how in the states it essentially tells you to follow the flow of traffic regardless of what the posted speed limit is. It's definitely a far more forgiving and proactive way of dealing with limits that drivers deem to be too slow.

hk20000 · 09-21-2010, 08:36 PM

yes on a recent issue of car and driver or road and track they have had a driver get a speeding ticket thrown out because the limit is "artificially low" and does not comply with the federal law - because the speed limit was setup by the "county" or what we call a municipality....where the speed limit should be the speed of 85% of motorists are travelling at or below.

But it doesn't matter anyway that does not apply to our speed limits law it's a USA thing isn't it? Can we fight our court cases with "85% of the drivers are driving at speeds faster than posted speed limit, hence my speeding ticket is federally illegal to be given to me in the first place" ?

Vale46Rossi · 09-21-2010, 08:44 PM

Thanks!

Lomac · 09-21-2010, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hk20000

yes on a recent issue of car and driver or road and track they have had a driver get a speeding ticket thrown out because the limit is "artificially low" and does not comply with the federal law - because the speed limit was setup by the "county" or what we call a municipality....where the speed limit should be the speed of 85% of motorists are travelling at or below.

But it doesn't matter anyway that does not apply to our speed limits law it's a USA thing isn't it? Can we fight our court cases with "85% of the drivers are driving at speeds faster than posted speed limit, hence my speeding ticket is federally illegal to be given to me in the first place" ?

I'm sure you can probably find some how to fight the ticket based on the findings in that report, but chances are the judge will simply quote right back at you the fact that the MoT prohibits you from driving at X-speed, regardless of what everyone else is doing.

taylor192 · 09-21-2010, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lomac

The Ministry should consider establishing a new maximum limit of 120 km/h for rural multilane divided roads with full access control.
The posted speed limits on the majority of the Provincial two-lane segments are 90 and 100 km/h.

Can someone name all the divided multilane highways in BC and their current speed limit? From what I've seen there are only: 1, 5, 19, 91, 97, 99. The 3 is multilane, yet is it "divided" anywhere by a ditch or concrete barrier?

The 1, 5, 97, and 99 already have 110 kmph limits in the rural sections and are lower near urban centres which is consistent with the countries cited. Perhaps the limits could be raised to 120, yet where did this study find 140? I posted a link in the other thread that showed several at 130, yet only Poland at 140. Even the US is primarily 110 (75) with only a few states at 120 (80) yet the US interstates are fantastically maintained compared to any BC highway: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_limits_by_country

Even the countries with 130 have lower limits in the rain - which would suck for 8 months of the year here

Lomac · 09-21-2010, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by taylor192

Can someone name all the divided multilane highways in BC and their current speed limit? From what I've seen there are only: 1, 5, 19, 91, 97, 99. The 3 is multilane, yet is it "divided" anywhere by a ditch or concrete barrier?

The 1, 5, 97, and 99 already have 110 kmph limits in the rural sections and are lower near urban centres which is consistent with the countries cited. Perhaps the limits could be raised to 120, yet where did this study find 140? I posted a link in the other thread that showed several at 130, yet only Poland at 140. Even the US is primarily 110 (75) with only a few states at 120 (80) yet the US interstates are fantastically maintained compared to any BC highway: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_limits_by_country

Even the countries with 130 have lower limits in the rain - which would suck for 8 months of the year here

Italy has, or at least had, limits on motorways of up to 140km/h provided your car has an engine size of 1300cc's or higher.

Not sure if that's what you're referring to. I don't recall this report suggesting they up the limits anywhere in BC to 140km/h.

PC69 · 09-21-2010, 10:51 PM

The speed limit in the city is a joke. I can safely say that over 90% of people drive faster then 50 km/h. What's the point of having this speed limit if majority of people don't obey it. The speed limit should be raised to at least 60km/h long time ago.

Lomac · 09-21-2010, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PC69

The speed limit in the city is a joke. I can safely say that over 90% of people drive faster then 50 km/h. What's the point of having this speed limit if majority of people don't obey it. The speed limit should be raised to at least 60km/h long time ago.

Two reasons why not...

1) 90% of the time, you're barely moving at 30km/h anyway.
2) Pedestrians, cyclists, cars parked parallel on the street, crosswalks, multiple driveways and alleys.

I agree that certain parts need the speed limits raised. Within city limits, however, is not one of those areas.

1990TSI · 09-21-2010, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lomac

I agree that certain parts need the speed limits raised. Within city limits, however, is not one of those areas.

This is key to all of this.

no ones looking to speed in playground/school zones or residential areas, it's the highways where the speed limits are retarded.

Now that we have this information.....what can we do with it?

JiggaZed · 09-22-2010, 12:02 AM

tl;dr

jlenko · 09-22-2010, 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PC69

I can safely say that over 90% of people drive faster then 50 km/h.

Yes, but you can't say that 90% of people safely drive faster than 50 km/h now, can you?

Honestly, I don't give a shit what speed people go.. as long as they do it all together... it's when you get the idiot who's weaving in and out of lanes trying to go twice the posted speed limit.. and more often than not, it's some fucking kid with an N on the back.

You won't find many cops that will give you a ticket if you're going with the flow of traffic... and if they do, it's because you or your car stand out somehow... like uber-loud fart cannons... or missing N.. or tinted windows.. slammed.. etc..

hk20000 · 09-22-2010, 01:31 AM

the 60km/h sections on Garden City and Westminster Hwy outside of no.4 has been cases of "good call" for it works very well at 60km/h and average day off peak hour speed avgs at 70-80....

even though it's in the city it is one of those roads designed from the get go to be used quickly - no street side parking, open view and straight with lights in reasonable distance apart.

On the other hand it's retarded to have parking allowed on Marine Dr, Clark Rd and Granville Rd (Vancouver) when they are clearly artery roads and having 1 lane closed by parked cars is 1/3 the traffic blocked off the damn road....Plus cars are parked in an irregular way making irregular bottlenecks...

So many accidents at night when a driver rams a parked car when least expecting of one too....

Of course that has nothing to do with the topic but thought I'd rant...

PC69 · 09-22-2010, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hk20000

the 60km/h sections on Garden City and Westminster Hwy outside of no.4 has been cases of "good call" for it works very well at 60km/h and average day off peak hour speed avgs at 70-80....

even though it's in the city it is one of those roads designed from the get go to be used quickly - no street side parking, open view and straight with lights in reasonable distance apart.

On the other hand it's retarded to have parking allowed on Marine Dr, Clark Rd and Granville Rd (Vancouver) when they are clearly artery roads and having 1 lane closed by parked cars is 1/3 the traffic blocked off the damn road....Plus cars are parked in an irregular way making irregular bottlenecks...

So many accidents at night when a driver rams a parked car when least expecting of one too....

Of course that has nothing to do with the topic but thought I'd rant...

Some of the staffs working in the city are moron. I don't understand why they allow people to park their cars on Marine drive from Knight bridge east bounded 24 hrs/day. Given the heavy traffic flow from vancouver/richmond to burnaby, this's just plain stupid.

gdoh · 09-22-2010, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1990TSI

This is key to all of this.

no ones looking to speed in playground/school zones or residential areas, it's the highways where the speed limits are retarded.

Now that we have this information.....what can we do with it?

imo the limits arnt the big problem its the people who dont know how to drive that cause most of the traffic problems on the highway...

SumAznGuy · 09-22-2010, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jlenko

Honestly, I don't give a shit what speed people go.. as long as they do it all together... it's when you get the idiot who's weaving in and out of lanes trying to go twice the posted speed limit.. and more often than not, it's some fucking kid with an N on the back.

Don't forget the L drivers who are tight fisted white knuckled holding on to the steering wheel for dear life while driving 40 km/h when everyone is whizzing past them at 50 km/h.

In the mornings when I head downtown, I am quite concerned some reject is going to pull out of the middle lane and into the HOV lane as I come barreling down at 50 km/h because they see how empty my lane is and they don't want to wait. Because of instances like that, I can understand why a 50 km/h limit is in place.

bloodmack · 09-22-2010, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jlenko

Yes, but you can't say that 90% of people safely drive faster than 50 km/h now, can you?

Honestly, I don't give a shit what speed people go.. as long as they do it all together... it's when you get the idiot who's weaving in and out of lanes trying to go twice the posted speed limit.. and more often than not, it's some fucking kid with an N on the back.

You won't find many cops that will give you a ticket if you're going with the flow of traffic... and if they do, it's because you or your car stand out somehow... like uber-loud fart cannons... or missing N.. or tinted windows.. slammed.. etc..

Wow, stereotype much? I've seen more people with class 5 licenses get pulled over than I have N drivers or "ricers". There will always be the young kids who thinks FnF, but its not always like that. Also, in regards to weaving out of traffic, I see A LOT of older people who drive your everyday vehicles; family vans and family sedans are big culprits of this.

I like this basic speed law, I always travel with the flow of traffic, hell most times you have no choice, but I think people who already do 120+ km/h on the highway would have less regard for speed + saftey if this was implemented. I think king george could use some sections of 80km/h especially near the 88th area.

Mugen EvOlutioN · 09-22-2010, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gdoh

imo the limits arnt the big problem its the people who dont know how to drive that cause most of the traffic problems on the highway...

let the idiots crash and die, either way the limites are still way too low

gdoh · 09-22-2010, 12:01 PM

higher limits wont do shit if the ppl now dont even do the limit your still gunna be held up in the same shit

slammer111 · 09-22-2010, 02:11 PM

It's a start, but it's still too low.

I'm all for cranking speeds on the highways, and maybe 60-70 in the city (minus the school zones). S2S is a joke. That thing should be 110 with some advisory signs around the bends. Outside of Abbotsford, everyone goes 140+, even in the slow lane.

Any politician who has that in their agenda, will automatically have my vote.

Delerious · 09-22-2010, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mugen EvOlutioN

let the idiots crash and die, either way the limites are still way too low

you won't be saying that when they take your significant other/parent/child along with them.

gars · 09-22-2010, 10:12 PM

great read.

I agree, Highways can be driven slightly faster. I like the part about driving relative to conditions. I'm always scared shitless when I see people driving the limit in blinding snow - usually SUV's thinking they're bulletproof.

I don't understand why people still think limits within the city need to be raised. I can see how certain roads (like Garden City and Westminster Hwy) can have higher limits, but I can't think of any other roads that are long enough and set up well enough for higher limits.

Tapioca · 09-22-2010, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mugen EvOlutioN

let the idiots crash and die, either way the limites are still way too low

More people dying would increase our insurance premiums. I don't care about the idiots, but I do care about my costs and I'm sure most people on here do too.

SumAznGuy · 09-22-2010, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tapioca

More people dying would increase our insurance premiums. I don't care about the idiots, but I do care about my costs and I'm sure most people on here do too.

But the branch of government that decides speed limits have no connection to a private insurance company. Oh wait, this is BC.

jlenko · 09-23-2010, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bloodmack

Wow, stereotype much? I've seen more people with class 5 licenses get pulled over than I have N drivers or "ricers". There will always be the young kids who thinks FnF, but its not always like that. Also, in regards to weaving out of traffic, I see A LOT of older people who drive your everyday vehicles; family vans and family sedans are big culprits of this.

You mis-read my post.. I see that too.. people speeding.. and people weaving..

but I speak from my own experience... the ones weaving at excessive speeds more often than not have an "N" on the back.