Cutting ceiling

[tiger_handheld]

anyone done this before?

We have a leak, and it's dripping down from the smoke detector. Need to fix the leak, which would require us to cut the ceiling. has anyone cut the ceiling and replaced it back?

Do we have any painters or plumbers in the house?

[E-40six]

ex-painter here

draw out a square outline, then score the line with a utility knife. then take drywall knife and cut along the lines. you'll hit a joist but dont worry about it. once you made the cut, just pull it off

now when you replace it, measure your hole, cut a piece of drywall the same size you took out and screw the new drywall into the joists.

If the hole is not spaced correctly and you can't get a good bite on the joist, add 2x4 to the joists so you can screw the drywall on it

[tiger_handheld]

^ thanks. next question.

once the new drywall is in. how do i go about matching the ceiling texture thats on the rest of the ceiling? can this be done?

[AllenPetersen]

I am an ex drywall contractor.

You can match texture most times by a person who knows what to do or if you have time to mess around with some test pieces before you spray the ceiling. i heard just recently that you can get texture in a can (thats not the stipple). Not sure how quality it would turn out. You can rent a texture machine from Home Depot for something like $30 for half day. Thats what I would recommend. Trick is getting your span (mud) the right consistancy. I always say to get it a little runnier then the McDonalds soft serve ice cream.

By the sounds of things, your not to fimilar with texture so for best result you can hire someone to do that or try doing it yourself. For a small area i would assume a contractor would charge you approx $150. It will take the guy literly 5 min's to do it. More of a set up and take down job.

On a side note with your cut out... When I patch areas smaller than 12" by 12" I do something that I call a yankie patch. Lets say your hole is 10" by 10". You would cut out a piece of drywall thats 12-13" by 12-13" Cut on the back side of the drywall. Make sure your not using any sides with the flat or dipped side of the drywall. Use a knife to cut into the back side your 10X10. Brake apart with your hand and pull away the piece from the top side of the paper. You left with the piece of drywall that fits the hole and the paper that surrounds the outter edge and acts as your tape. Then i use a glue mud, slap some on the ceiling and back butter the patch and toss it in, wipe it out, then i do a skim coat over top with normal mud. Wait a day, sand, do a good thick coat, wait another day, sand , prime and your ready for texture.

[tiger_handheld]

^ thanks. if you have any guys that know wtf they are doing. feel free to pm me their contact. pls don't gouge me cuz i dont know anything about drywall.

[mickz]

Originally Posted by AllenPetersen

I am an ex drywall contractor.

You can match texture most times by a person who knows what to do or if you have time to mess around with some test pieces before you spray the ceiling. i heard just recently that you can get texture in a can (thats not the stipple). Not sure how quality it would turn out. You can rent a texture machine from Home Depot for something like $30 for half day. Thats what I would recommend. Trick is getting your span (mud) the right consistancy. I always say to get it a little runnier then the McDonalds soft serve ice cream.

By the sounds of things, your not to fimilar with texture so for best result you can hire someone to do that or try doing it yourself. For a small area i would assume a contractor would charge you approx $150. It will take the guy literly 5 min's to do it. More of a set up and take down job.

On a side note with your cut out... When I patch areas smaller than 12" by 12" I do something that I call a yankie patch. Lets say your hole is 10" by 10". You would cut out a piece of drywall thats 12-13" by 12-13" Cut on the back side of the drywall. Make sure your not using any sides with the flat or dipped side of the drywall. Use a knife to cut into the back side your 10X10. Brake apart with your hand and pull away the piece from the top side of the paper. You left with the piece of drywall that fits the hole and the paper that surrounds the outter edge and acts as your tape. Then i use a glue mud, slap some on the ceiling and back butter the patch and toss it in, wipe it out, then i do a skim coat over top with normal mud. Wait a day, sand, do a good thick coat, wait another day, sand , prime and your ready for texture.

I actually had a similar problem to the OP at my house. I used the spray texture from the can, which had settings for how thick/thin you want it, and none of them would be even close to matching. I would not recommend this product because it's messy, stinks and it's not cheap.

[tiger_handheld]

so we figured out the water was leaking from the tile grout in the shower.

how does tile grout decay? We use bleach to clean the washrooms real good once a month, would that have an effect?


shitty deal is, now there is a hole in the ceiling and its not from the pipes =\.

[Greenstoner]

a small tips for you... cut as much as you need for the job/to work on because to replace a 2x2 drywall or ceiling tile is gonna cost you the same as 4x4 (number just an example)

simply because you buying one whole piece of drywall or ceiling tile so the cost would be the same

[dmm]

Originally Posted by tiger_handheld

so we figured out the water was leaking from the tile grout in the shower.

how does tile grout decay? We use bleach to clean the washrooms real good once a month, would that have an effect?


shitty deal is, now there is a hole in the ceiling and its not from the pipes =\.

Grout should not decay. It would usually result from poor installtion / application of grout / tiles.

Grout too wet or dry when first applied can be too porous or weak, or there is not enough grout pushed in to the crack to form a good bond. Or the backerboard has too much movement, causing the grout to crack.

Seams between walls and different surfaces should be sealed with silicone/caulk that remains flexible. For example, some installers use only grout for a inside corner with tiles on both sides, and if the wall flexes, the grout will crack.

Also to watch out for is if water has penetrated between the grout, the backerboard may be damaged (years ago, drywall was used as backerboard). If you push on a tile, does it seem loose or does the wall give? Water also leads to mold growth ...

[AllenPetersen]

dont sweat about the hole ion the cealing. Thats just what you need to do to find a problem most the time. Better to find the problem than ignore it.

As for the shower leaking... That sucks. The grout is not waterproof. Its what is behind the tile that prevents water from penetrating through the wallo or floor. That is called a "membrane". Depending on how old the shower is and or if it is up to proper code for the time it was build could narrow down what actually caused it. I cant really tell you what it could be as you have not provided enough information.

people on this forum could learn alot from watching holmes on holmes. haha. They explain most of what I am talking about in almost every reno they do involving a bathroom.

Usually to fix shower problems like this means a total rebuild. You need to get under the tile to repair or replace the membrane so water wont leak out. If you do a quick fix then down the road you could get mold causing even more problems. You can buy shower membranes from home depot. remember that the wall needs to overlap the shower membrane on the floor or water will run off the wall and go behind the membrane defeating the purpose. Building a shower can be a pain in the ass if you dont have a conventional size shower. If it is conventional then it could be an easy job and the hardest task would be setting the drain properly.

As for your hole in your cealing, leave it untill you fix your problem so that you can check for leaks after you are done. If your a slow worker and dont feel like fixing the hole, it may be a good idea to leave it as an access panel. If thats what you would like to do then just get a appropiate size board or cold air vent to cover up the hole. that makes it look better and still gives you access to your problem area when needed. I fixed up my old house and now rent it out and I have an access panel in most of these "problem areas" for future problem fix's.

If you need drywall for your patch, dont bother buying the drywall. Go to a new development area where a house or houses are being completed. look in the dumpster and find a piece. or even ask someone on the job site. If you find a place with drywallers in it, you may get lucky and get a bit of tape and a pan of mud to get you going on your repair.

[MindBomber]

Originally Posted by AllenPetersen

people on this forum could learn alot from watching holmes on holmes. haha. They explain most of what I am talking about in almost every reno they do involving a bathroom.

EEeeekkk! A fellow trades person recommending people try to learn by watching Mike Holmes, that show causes me more head aches from home owners with their self taught ideas than anything else I've ever encountered.

[fliptuner]

Re: grout failing.

There are couple of ways to approach this: the cheap, quick, unreliable way, that will lead to a future re-do and no mold removal or the proper, reliable way, that costs a lot more but will last.

In my basement, the grout failed under my shower faucets because the taps weren't secured properly, had some movement and over time, cracked the grout, got water into the drywall (yes, regular drywall) and the moisture molded the back of the wall and affected the wall on the other side of the tub stall. Keep in mind, a lot of basement suites are built cheap and quick and this is not an uncommon scenario.

I had to tear out all 3 walls surrounding the tub, remove the tub, the walls that were mold damaged on the other sides of the tub stall, clean all the studs, restructure the non load bearing walls so I had good surfaces to screw 3x5 concrete/Aqua boards, add bracing for the faucets, reinstall the tub, use proper boards for the tub surround, install the waterproof membrane, tile, grout, and silicone the edges. I still have to blend where I cut my wall to start repairs and do the drywall repairs in the other rooms (luckily, they're in closets).

[AllenPetersen]

Originally Posted by MindBomber

EEeeekkk! A fellow trades person recommending people try to learn by watching Mike Holmes, that show causes me more head aches from home owners with their self taught ideas than anything else I've ever encountered.

You kidding? Maybe your just used to BC code. I dont see any problem with that show. If anything, they go way overboard especially with mold. I still think its great for noobs to watch. You can have a better understanding of the concept of how things get put together. Unless the show has changed. Been a while.

But you are right on the home owners. Home owners will always have messed up ideas because they just dont understand most of the concept. Not just the ones on the show but in general.

[MindBomber]

Originally Posted by AllenPetersen

You kidding? Maybe your just used to BC code. I dont see any problem with that show. If anything, they go way overboard especially with mold. I still think its great for noobs to watch. You can have a better understanding of the concept of how things get put together. Unless the show has changed. Been a while.

But you are right on the home owners. Home owners will always have messed up ideas because they just dont understand most of the concept. Not just the ones on the show but in general.

In some ways I've benefited tremendously from Mike Holmes, I'm a insulation contractor and I've had home owners tell me that they called after seeing the show recommend attic insulation upgrades. It's great that Holmes advocates updates to building code, but a lot of what he says makes absolutely no sense and it indoctrinates home owners with wrong information.

Holmes insists on using Roxul for instance, because of that I now routinely have people asking me to insulate their entire home with it and are steadfast in their belief that it's better than fiberglass insulation. It's not, Roxul is good for very specific circumstances where fiberglass will not meet the requirements and for everything else it's garbage. It won't burn with a blow torch against it, but it contains an extremely high content of formaldehyde that affects indoor air quality.

Also, whats with his instance on using screws, does he not realize that nails are stronger?..

[AllenPetersen]

Ive done insulation for over a yr and I get where your coming from. People in Alberta prefer Roxul in the walls. Fiberglass is just easy to cut and the perforations make it much easier. I prefer fiberglass.
As for screws.... I use em before nails any day. Some old timers use nails to tack the sheet up then a screw guy goes after to finish the job. I prefer screws 100% and think they are stronger than a nail. Nails (could) work their way out, a screw dosnt magical un-screw. Plus, hammering them can damage the paper causing the nail to pop. A house requires thousands of screws. Hammering a thousand nails with a hammer and not having several pop due to damaged paper would require 100% accuracy with your hammer. Its just not going to happen. Tho, using glue mud on first coat on the screws does help. I normally do that on the taping process anyways. Best way to hang board imo is the glue drywall on int walls n screw. One in the bevel 2 in the field staggered in the field and 3 on the edges. Same deal for ex walls only 3 in the field and same with ceiling board.

Every time I've seen Mikes show I do notice he uses local drywall contractors. They're always different and I always notice them doing at least one thing in a way I dont prefer. I just think for the average guy that doesnt know jack on construction, the show does help to understand the concept quite well and they do build nice showers.

[MindBomber]

There are some things he does very well and bathrooms is definitely one of them, it's still not often that I see anything other than dens shield as a tile backer and regular drywall in a bathroom. I've noticed that he always uses durock and humiteck. I've also noticed how he always uses small, local drywall contractors which shows he knows his stuff as a contractor; when it comes to taping, the smaller the company the better the quality.

My issue with his fanatical use of screws is that they simply aren't as strong under certain circumstances and thats why code doesn't allow them to be used for structural framing. An ardox nail will bend and flex with the movement of the house but never actually break clean in two, which is especially important in an earthquake prone area like BC. A screw will sheer clean in two before in bends.

On drywall, subflooring and a other finishing things screws are way better.

[blkgsr]

could any taping contractors please send me a pm

i've completely redone my upstairs bathrooms and have a few other locations in my house that required new board

so i've got a decent amount of taping required

send me your info and hourly rate

some/most materials will be supplied by me

[MindBomber]

^If you supply some or most of the materials yourself the job will cost you more to complete. A significant part of a contractors revenue is the mark-up we make off selling you products at retail cost, while we are pay 60-70% of retail. If we loose that revenue then we'll need to charge more for labour and you'll be paying more for the materials anyway. At least thats the way I and most of the people I work with bid jobs.

[RenoMan]

Mike holmes like screws because it holds better and over time it will not "sag" but it has no shear strength and will just snap/break. Nails are strong but they have the advantage of having shear strength but they loosen up over time. Now adays you can use twisted nails to help with the holding power. All depends on the job and personal preference.ie high wind areas would u want just nails on your roof or screws?

[Soundy]

Originally Posted by AllenPetersen

You kidding? Maybe your just used to BC code. I dont see any problem with that show. If anything, they go way overboard especially with mold. I still think its great for noobs to watch. You can have a better understanding of the concept of how things get put together. Unless the show has changed. Been a while.

But you are right on the home owners. Home owners will always have messed up ideas because they just dont understand most of the concept. Not just the ones on the show but in general.

It's like with any show of this type, people watch it but don't PAY ATTENTION to what the host is actually trying to get across... and then form their own screwy ideas from it. I don't know how many people I see who've watched The Dog Whisperer and think that his "PSSHHT" thing is a magical command that will cause a dog to do whatever they want... obviously not paying attention the many times he states outright that it's a sound HE uses to get the dog's attention, and that other people may find other sounds work better for them.

Holmes is the same thing - people who take his word as gospel obviously aren't paying attention. Look at the two-parter where he was on the Ellen show and helped a couple in California finish their home: he didn't waltz in and say, "it must be done this way because that's how I roll"; he listened AND LEARNED about different ways of doing things from the local contractors, who KNOW the different building codes that apply (earthquake-safe construction, for example) and KNOW the different designs and methods needed for the different environment and climate.

It's the same with the local contractors he uses even in Ontario: look at how often he has a contractor with a new technology or a new way of doing something, and how he learns something new from it.

His main thing is advocating better building codes, better code ENFORCEMENT, ensuring people use reputable contractors, and "doing it right the FIRST TIME." Nothing wrong with that.

You can't blame these guys for viewers who don't pay attention and form their own wacky ideas based on half-absorbed partial information. The same thing happens when people read books... or magazines... or web sites.

[MindBomber]

Originally Posted by RenoMan

Mike holmes like screws because it holds better and over time it will not "sag" but it has no shear strength and will just snap/break. Nails are strong but they have the advantage of having shear strength but they loosen up over time. Now adays you can use twisted nails to help with the holding power. All depends on the job and personal preference.ie high wind areas would u want just nails on your roof or screws?

On a roof, where there is the possibility that extremely high winds could get under a piece of plywood and lift it off, I would rather see screws and nails. Screws would protect against wind, but there is a huge amount of strength added to the roof by the decking and if that were to fail in an earthquake where lateral movement would shear screws the structure would be severely weakened.

[RouRK]

i just patched a ceiling for a friends parents and i used the can of popcorn spray from RONA. it matched it perfect.