engines, what is better and why?

[GabAlmighty]

Originally Posted by shenmecar

So Americans can run around saying "There's no replacement for displacement"

But... There isn't...

[MindBomber]

I'm unclear why your choosing to reduce this discussion to baseless insults, I'm in no way simple minded and to insinuate that over my views on a car is ridiculous, grow up.

People have made many of the exact same complaints about the Fit having a cheap plastic interior and no power. I test drove the Smart, Fit and Civic; I preferred the smart and only chose a Civic because once a month I might carry two passengers and I don't have a second vehicle for those occasions.

I don't know how this got so off-topic, but we've both made out points clear and there's no reason to continue.

Originally Posted by ilvtofu

First off why don't you try to be a bit more relevant
Higher build quality? you do realize I have a smart parked in my garage as we speak right? I have unlimited access to a 450 diesel and a 451 petrol fortwo and both are absolutely horrible. Interior is just as cheap/plasticky as any entry level japanese car, tranny is just about the worst in the world and the car is absolutely gutless... Don't forget that the car is notoriously unreliable AND parts are very expensive. Cars with good build quality generally don't fall apart...

The smart that gets twice the fuel economy as the canadian fit also has 1/3 of the power and interior volume. And STILL costs exactly the same brand new, let alone all the costs over the next 3 years...

If you are so simple minded that you can only view efficiency as car with the lowest fuel economy then I honestly feel sorry for you.

[ajax]

Just like everything else in America, bigger is better.

I used to be extremely biased towards imports but now that I've had a chance to work on some old school muscle I'm starting to switch sides. They're much easier to work on and build. Plus you can't beat the sound of a big v8.

[wasabisashimi]

Originally Posted by ilvtofu

First off why don't you try to be a bit more relevant
Higher build quality? you do realize I have a smart parked in my garage as we speak right? I have unlimited access to a 450 diesel and a 451 petrol fortwo and both are absolutely horrible. Interior is just as cheap/plasticky as any entry level japanese car, tranny is just about the worst in the world and the car is absolutely gutless... Don't forget that the car is notoriously unreliable AND parts are very expensive. Cars with good build quality generally don't fall apart...

The smart that gets twice the fuel economy as the canadian fit also has 1/3 of the power and interior volume. And STILL costs exactly the same brand new, let alone all the costs over the next 3 years...

If you are so simple minded that you can only view efficiency as car with the lowest fuel economy then I honestly feel sorry for you.

I have to agree that i've never understood the need for "smart for 2", and "smart for 2 convertible". They are pretty much only for people who lives in downtown, works in downtown like within 5km radius of travel daily.


I started this topic, cuz i want to learn to appreciate engines with large displacement. We are all told import > domestic blah blah blah since we were young and that mentality has went soft in me over the last few years.

[s300ae]

Originally Posted by Rich Sandor

The REAL reason American 'muscle' cars have always had big engines, is because the big three make their money building TRUCKS. Trucks need big engines, end of story. Take a truck engine, tweak it and drop it in a car = yeeeehaaaaw. European sports cars have always had smaller engines because, for example, Porsche and BMW never built 1-ton trucks en masse. They've always focused on passenger cars and developing passenger car engines into racing engines. Ford and Chevy and Dodge did the exact opposite - they retuned truck engines to work well in cars.

There is nothing 'wrong' with a traditional domestic engine. It may not squeeze as much HP out of a Litre of displacement, but it's more simple, way cheaper to build, cheaper to buy, cheaper and easier to maintain and repair, and usually runs fine on regular octane. None of those things can be said about a high-strung BMW or Porsche turbo engine.

I can pick apart a Japanese block, or a German block, just the same as an American block. They all have strengths and weaknesses. It's easy to look at numbers on a sheet of paper and think one is superior - but in the real world, there are other factors that come into play.

Well the real REAL reason American cars had bigger engines is because of OIL prices post WWII. Super cheap crude = Americans being able to afford 4.L + pony/muscle cars, boatlong cadillacs, etc. Also its important to mention that bootleggers were the first engine modders of the American culture that put bigger engines into their cars in order to outrun the police. Result = Nascar.

Once the oil crisis hit in the 70s, all the EU and Asian car manufacturers hit a jackpot due to their much smaller fuel efficient vehicles. Even with higher gas prices, the big 3 continued to make big blocks because they were so cheap to produce and run. Also whoever said Culture has nothing to do with it doesnt know what theyre talking about. Of course it does! Its the mindset that you are born into.

Europe:
smaller roads, more compact countries, stricter restrictions (emissions).
proof is there when you go visit EU. vast variety of diesel engines, mostly wagons instead of pickups or SUVs, smaller cargo vans. Even when it comes to racing. Europeans concentrated on designing a car that can go many laps around a track, fuel efficient (less pit stops), better cornering and is more air dynamic.

NA: vast open land, less emission restrictions, American BIG ego of bigger is better. American obsession with the Pickup truck and SUV while most are only used for daily driving. Meanwhile, American racing culture was to put the biggest engine you can in order to win a drag race.

When it comes down to it, it all depends what you intend to use that engine for. Racing in a straight line? Track use? Hauling? DD?

[Mancini]

It's interesting when people state that Japanese or European brands provide similar power output from "smaller" engines.

In fact, pushrod engines are very compact and light for their displacement. An LSx may be of similar size and weight as a DOHC 6 cylinder, meaning it could be used in the same applications without any downside. The upside is a broader power curve.

[Teh Doucher]

lol @ efficiency and engine(internal combustion engine) being used in the same sentence.

[sdubfid]

Originally Posted by Mancini

It's interesting when people state that Japanese or European brands provide similar power output from "smaller" engines.

In fact, pushrod engines are very compact and light for their displacement. An LSx may be of similar size and weight as a DOHC 6 cylinder, meaning it could be used in the same applications without any downside. The upside is a broader power curve.

Well said, I'm pretty sure that an all aluminum LSx is a little lighter than an iron block rb26.

I personally am a fan of imports and domestics, gas or diesel. No one engine is better than an other. Maybe you want a 10000rpm screamer or maybe you want a diesel with 1000ft/lbs at 1800rpm. Depends on the purpose.

But for daily driver versatility a 4 cylinder turbo is a good mix of economy/power.

If I had to choose an engine for fun it would definately be LSx based. The amount of parts available are mind-boggling. Very cheap too compared to hks or spoon parts overnight from japan.

People put GM LSx's in mazdas, hondas, toyotas, nissans, datsuns, jeeps, fords, infinitis etc etc.

[cococly]

Originally Posted by Mancini

It's interesting when people state that Japanese or European brands provide similar power output from "smaller" engines.

In fact, pushrod engines are very compact and light for their displacement. An LSx may be of similar size and weight as a DOHC 6 cylinder, meaning it could be used in the same applications without any downside. The upside is a broader power curve.

Source? Which 6-cylinder engine are you talking about?

Some newer turbo engines from German automakers are praised for their "non-exsistence" turbo lag, some of them has peak torque arriving as soon as 1200rpm (factory figures), peak horsepower arriving at 5000-5500rpm. These kind of engines are good at driving around town, but then they have signficant turbo "fade" closer to the redline.

I am just sad at seeing all these high-revving N/A engines being axed because of newer emission standards. The current M3 is the last M-car with a N/A engine

[roastpuff]

Originally Posted by cococly

Source? Which 6-cylinder engine are you talking about?

If you've seen a BMW I6 to LSx conversion, you can definitely notice it.

Pics from lowside67's race car conversion. Note how much room there is between the radiator and the engine. It's tighter with the original I6 in there.



Another E36, converted to run LS1 engine.



Here's a quote from him describing the fit:

As you can see, the motor will fit neatly next to the stock brake booster and master so nothing has to be changed there (ABS unit has been moved further forward and I will have to do the same in my car). Steering is also unchanged with one exception which is the stock BMW linkage between the steering column and the rack includes a big rubber connection point which is very close to one of the rear headers which would not stand the heat coming from the header. Luckily Vorshlag makes a very nice drop in aluminum linkage replacement which not only will deal with the heat but will also have the benefit of removing one of the points of "slop" in the stock steering arrangement.

The motor itself is actually lighter than the 6cyl it replaces by almost 20lbs with a full host of accessories thanks to its aluminum construction (although the T56 6-spd transmission is almost 30lbs heavier than the BMW 5spd so its a wash) and, as an added bonus, sits lower in the chassis and more rearward than the I6 (the V8 is completely behind the front of the shock towers as you can see while the I6 BMW motor extends almost another 4" forward).

[TOPEC]

Originally Posted by cococly

The current M3 is the last M-car with a N/A engine

and it'll be the one and only gen with a V8
Posted via RS Mobile

[Mancini]

Originally Posted by cococly

Source? Which 6-cylinder engine are you talking about?

Some newer turbo engines from German automakers are praised for their "non-exsistence" turbo lag, some of them has peak torque arriving as soon as 1200rpm (factory figures), peak horsepower arriving at 5000-5500rpm. These kind of engines are good at driving around town, but then they have signficant turbo "fade" closer to the redline.

I am just sad at seeing all these high-revving N/A engines being axed because of newer emission standards. The current M3 is the last M-car with a N/A engine

Someone else has already used BMW's inline-6 as an example. I'll use your example with BMW's 4.0L V8. These numbers can be verified all over the place.

BMW's engine weighs 445 lbs.
An LS3 weighs 415 lbs.

http://www.kenrockwell.com/bmw/m3/2007/engine.htm
http://www.gmperformanceparts.com/_r...ineQRC2008.pdf

Despite the BMW's smaller displacement engine (less than two-thirds the size), it weighs more and makes less power everywhere. Even the LS7 (505 hp) is in the ballpark with the BMW with 5 lbs less.