Mainland Chinese Buying West Van

[Apparition]

Originally Posted by stewie

i say change it then.


make a law like some other places have(i think thailand does this? not sure though) and apply them here: if your not a canadian citizen or married to one, you cannot buy property here.

And the price of property plummets in Canada from speculators while prices go up in Australia or New Zealand. Money will find its way into people's pockets and they will want to spend it somewhere where people wants to take them and there will always be people who are willing to do what it takes to take that money.

[Apparition]

Originally Posted by parm104

This thread is SO off-topic, it's not even funny. People come in here and read the last post made by someone and the elaborate or argue on that issue to the point where it becomes irrelevant to the original issue at hand...

Why is this about people's manners or behaviors? Why is this thread becoming about changing people's mannerisms? We went from having a group of people upset about the fact that housing in our fine city is unfordable and blaming it on the fact that rich buyers, not locally but from overseas are coming in and creating an inflation in these prices because of their demand...The original thread topic wasn't about whether rich people in general caused inflation, it was DIRECTLY in relation to "Mainlanders" coming in and creating this inflation and how it is unfair for non-Canadians to create a burden on Canadians in their own country...

As I mentioned before, I understand people's concerns and their frustrations are reasonable. But also as I said before, blaming "non-Canadians" is simply a scapegoat for the turmoil faced by our current middle-class economy. If not wealthy Asian's purchasing this property, there will be wealthy Canadians who will do so, and in fact are doing so. Also, if the tables were turned, and you were instead an owner of one of these properties and had a prospective buyer who wanted to give you above market-value for it, would you turn them down? Of course not!

As far taxation, even though it is off-topic as well, I don't see the debate over who should be taxed and who should be given refunds. The larger your income, the more you are taxed. The greater amount of property you own, the more you are text. The more extravagant goods you buy, the more money you give to the government. It is all proportional. There are luxury taxes for vehicles, there are premium taxes for large residential properties and their are commercial taxes for business properties...Everything is proportionately paid out by the wealthy to the government. That being said, these people are just as entitled to refunds as anyone else. People on this thread think that wealthy people are putting in the same amount of money as everyone else into the government...That simply isn't true and is absurd to even think so. So how does it logically make sense that wealthy people pay more taxes for their more expensive goods AND get penalized by not receiving the same tax breaks at the end of the year as everyone else?? So long as they are paying their PROPORTIONAL, EQUAL SHARE of taxes, which they generally are, they are entitled legally and morally to the same $80 (example) that everyone else gets as a refund. Any other discussion about corporate expenditures/tax-breaks is simply off-topic from the original issue at hand...

Doesn't happen just in Canada, in Hong Kong there was an uproar at the policy to let mainlanders have permanent resident status by buying 6 mil HKD of property. The locals rallied protests and the government caved in; first by upping the requirement to 10 or 11mil so that the mainlanders aren't competing with the locals for "regular" apartments, and then scrapping the idea all together a few months afterwards. Then a research came out in the news that it was really a low percentage of mainlanders that were buying "affordable" housing and really made no impact on the second hand market when most of the mainlanders were buying new developments anyway. And then there's now the limit on mainland women who come to HK to give birth so their kids get residency.

Whenever you have two fields of grass, the cows or lambs or whatever, will want to move to the greener one and the local ones who are already on the green pasture will want to keep the others out. It's animal nature. I don't think there can be any policy towards it, just better education for new comers and each one of us try to influence the new comers in our daily lives in a positive way.

[parm104]

Originally Posted by Apparition

.
Whenever you have two fields of grass, the cows or lambs or whatever, will want to move to the greener one and the local ones who are already on the green pasture will want to keep the others out. It's animal nature. I don't think there can be any policy towards it, just better education for new comers and each one of us try to influence the new comers in our daily lives in a positive way.

Although your analogy makes perfect sense, it is simply not the case in this thread. People here have been complaining about the fact that they cannot afford a decent house in this market...That means they are not yet on the green field! If they were on the green field, they would be benefiting from it either by enjoying a nice home or by making money by selling their home in an seller's market...

Anyone who has the ability to invest money into expensive housing is on the green side of the field...Regardless of whether they live in Canada or not. They always will be, so long as they have that financial stability. If they do not invest here in property, they will simply invest somewhere else, maybe even in a different type of market. After all, they didn't make their money just by sitting around and waiting for the opportunity to knock at their door...

That's my entire point. Whether these people invest here or not, the same people who are not able to afford decent housing/housing they prefer, will STILL be in the same boat after the Asians are banned from buying property here. Their wealth will not increase magically and the prices of housing will not go down as there are still plenty of other rich people in Canada who are looking to invest into property...

Side note: LOL Nightwalker, I just realized you managed to respond to my post earlier before I had a chance to finish it. Although the Border Services argument is a weak one, my point was that enforcing (that particular law) would not fix any problems that are currently existing in our system. It does however have the potential to create more problems.

[Apparition]

Originally Posted by parm104

Although your analogy makes perfect sense, it is simply not the case in this thread. People here have been complaining about the fact that they cannot afford a decent house in this market...That means they are not yet on the green field! If they were on the green field, they would be benefiting from it either by enjoying a nice home or by making money by selling their home in an seller's market...

Anyone who has the ability to invest money into expensive housing is on the green side of the field...Regardless of whether they live in Canada or not. They always will be, so long as they have that financial stability. If they do not invest here in property, they will simply invest somewhere else, maybe even in a different type of market. After all, they didn't make their money just by sitting around and waiting for the opportunity to knock at their door...

That's my entire point. Whether these people invest here or not, the same people who are not able to afford decent housing/housing they prefer, will STILL be in the same boat after the Asians are banned from buying property here. Their wealth will not increase magically and the prices of housing will not go down as there are still plenty of other rich people in Canada who are looking to invest into property...

Side note: LOL Nightwalker, I just realized you managed to respond to my post earlier before I had a chance to finish it. Although the Border Services argument is a weak one, my point was that enforcing (that particular law) would not fix any problems that are currently existing in our system. It does however have the potential to create more problems.

Interestingly, that's the same thing in Hong Kong; the mainlanders aren't buying the second hand cheaper property which supposedly the locals are clamering about not being able to afford. In theory, only the upper end homes should be going up while the lower end goes down because no one buys them.

So who is the cultprit here? Local property speculators? Real estate agencies? Or declining income and buying power of locals? As a Canadian who's been away from Canada for 6 years, I feel I can't come back to Vancouver anymore because I can't get a job; everything's bio tech science and IT and banking these days and without a specialist degree, no one would hire me. Perhaps part of the problem is the nature of our industries in BC that it changed too fast for some to catch up in their training and get left with low paying jobs?

[2damaxmr2]

ALL hail chairman Mao.

[Great68]

This thread is pretty much why I moved out of Vancouver.

[Apparition]

Originally Posted by Great68

This thread is pretty much why I moved out of Vancouver.

I moved out too but want to move back in

[!LittleDragon]

I've seriously been thinking of leaving lately. Not so much because of the housing prices, it's this damn depressing weather. I'm thinking somewhere hot and tropical like the Cayman islands or the Bahamas. I have no idea why my parents chose Vancouver when we came here 30 years ago... they couldn't have chosen further south like San Fran or LA?

[RFlush]

Originally Posted by Apparition

Actually, depends. A few well off mainlanders I know are now telling others to first get Hong Kong residency first before applying for overseas passport. Right now, they gave up their Chinese passport and everytime they come back to China to do their business making money, the need to apply and wait for a visitor visa from China. On the other hand, if you got HK residency first with their passport (like myself), you can get a "China Return Pass" when going to China and you don't have to give up your HK residency when you become a Canadian citizen. Up till last year (or was it earlier this year?) if you as a mainlander buy and hold a 6mil HKD property or stocks on the HK exchange, you're elligible for residency.

Just to clarify, for a mainlander to "buy" their residency in Hong Kong they must have obtained permanent resident status in a foreign country first, which is hard to do. This capital investment entrant scheme is available to anyone as well.

[Watercloset]

I'm not concerned about the influx of Mainland Chinese people. I'm just annoyed by the fact that some of them are unwilling to adapt and frankly, quite pompous. Funny thing is, they are only arrogant towards people who speak their own language, yet they seem a lot more reserved to people who can't speak Mandarin.

In their defense, most of the Mainland Chinese I know who stayed here for over 2 years have completed blended in. I think there's been a large number of ML China immigrants over the last few years. I'm hoping things will look better in the next few years.

[Valour]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDl8unyFE0c

This is the truthiness of culture in the future. It is a natural course of things. If you want to preserve Canadian culture... better start humping!

[bing]

Originally Posted by Graeme S

I both agree and disagree with this statement. I'm a big proponent of legalizing and regulating pretty much all drugs on the same prinicple I'm there for leaving welfare in place--"Anyone who wants something bad enough will find a way". The more expensive things like education become, the more difficult it become for (for lack of a better term let's call them) "welfare children"; children whose parents have relied on welfare and government support for sustenance to the point where they will not or even cannot get a job (How many people would employ a person who hasn't had a job in 10 years a job.). If we don't provide a ladder at some point, these people will just dig themselves into deeper and deeper holes.

You are misunderstanding my point of view. Again, I did not say to dismantle the social system, so I am not debating you on the merits of keeping one in place. I was claiming that the system breeds a degree of laziness, which it does. My point was that it is expensive to maintain, but if everyone works harder (which some people seem opposed), the government collects more than the cost through taxation and other means, does everyone overall supposedly benefit. It's also a general statement that I was making in relation to our rapidly rising housing market that people will just have to work harder and smarter to get what they need because we live in a first class city and a global world. The examples I was making about the welfare recipients was that there are people out there who, having their basic sustenance needs met, wouldn't care to stop leeching even if they have ability to work. You need to question why these people, year after year made the decision to be lazy, and let it get to the point where they did not work for 10 years. It's a no-brainer that people would have trouble finding employment by doing that (as many web sites giving advice on finding work will tell you), but does that mean they are entitled to never work again after passing that 10 year mark? In Asia where there is no social support, people work effing hard compared to here. Some people have multiple jobs to support themselves. You will even see 70yr's old working.

[Meowjin]

Omg thos condo owners at ubc... Hear their press release?
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[Watercloset]

Originally Posted by Apparition

I'm living in that 5000 years old culture right now in Yixing, Jiangsu, China and so far I've clocked about 70,000 kms on my car to Anhui and Henan and not the mention the numerous visits to Shenzhen and Dongguan and Guangzhou. The cultural revolution that taught sons to be paranoid about their fathers and brothers to be hateful of any siblings with "counter revolutionary ideas" completely reversed said 5000 years of history.

When you see 7 series running red lights and S classes illegally parked with cops not daring to give a damn, where's the 5000 years of history and class? Gone.

When you get people who get offended when you try to tell them how to smoke a Cohiba properly (which you provided, by the way) and think because they got money, they don't need to listen to anyone and just do things their way, where's that 5000 years of culture? Gone.

Gone are the days when my parents taught us business should be done with dignity and humility. Now, the more you brag, the better car you buy with the freebie business loans from China banks, the more successful you will be.

I'm also frustrated at the disappearence of that 5000 years of history. Hopefully this trend is only limited to cities; in the rural areas, people are generally friendly. On the way to find a supplier in northern Jiangsu, I stopped at a Church to take some pictures. At first the people immediately ran out and asked me why I'm taking pictures and I told them I'm Canadian and just wanted to share the area with my friends back home. They were pretty hostile up to that point and very exceptionally friendly afterwards but you can see why the paranoia from government can destroy 5000 years of customs.

I spent quite a bit of time in Ningbo and Shanghai. Unfortunately, most people there put money ahead of everything else. 99% of the people in China were literally eating tree skins and drinking dirt water prior to the 90's, so they put a LOT of emphasis on money. They are scared of being poor - real scared. This kind of mindset is usually passed on to the next generation. The Chinese government however, has spent little efforts in remedying this issue. Ethics aren't taught in school or at home... And religion costs money in China (almost every temple I've been to in China requires an entrance fee, and is run by the government).

Originally Posted by Apparition

About government taking lands, it still happens unfortunately (and I'm not a China basher, on the contrary I'm mostly the devil's advocate when it comes to people and friends making negative comments about China). But take their land yes, compensate them, most of the time. China is such a large place that the central gov or the "Feds" aren't everywhere to enforce fairness. In a lot of rural areas, outsider rich guys come in with money and bribe the local officials to look the other way or even help with their police to move people out of the way for a construction project. The Feds are afraid of this getting out of hand but there's only so much they can do; it's a complicated symbiotic relationship between the Feds and the locals on how they do business with each other and the people they're supposed to look after. In a way, this prevents "not in my back yard" thinking like in North America which can block developments which is good, but sooner or later, China will have to develop a more democratic approach to land ownership (not many people OWN land in China, just years you rent it from the government).

I personally spoke to a Taiwanese businessman, his family owns a hotel chain in Taiwan. He told me his family business expanded over to China, and they set up commercial properties in the more rural areas in China. I believe they didn't spend too much effort trying to befriend local authorities, and they weren't very liked. One day the local government went straight into their living quarters and took all the proof of ownership from them. Yeah, it sounds absurd, but I'm just passing on what I was told.

This kind of nonsense still happens, but mostly in central/west China.

[Carl Johnson]

Metro Vancouver new home prices flat in September: Statistics Canada


POSTMEDIA NEWS NOVEMBER 9, 2011 9:16 AM


Metro Vancouver new home prices remained flat in September, while edging up slightly year-over-year, Statistics Canada said Wednesday.

The federal agency said prices of new homes remained the same compared to August, but rose 0.1 per cent from September 2010 to September 2011.

In Victoria, new home prices were also flat in September compared to August, but dropped 1.6 per cent year-over-year.

Nationally, new home prices edged up 0.2 per cent from August to September and 2.3 per cent from September 2010 to September 2011.

Nationally, the price increase followed a 0.1-per-cent gain in August and was the sixth straight monthly increase in the new housing index.

Economists had expected prices to rise by between 0.1 and 0.2 per cent in September.

The Toronto and Oshawa, Ont. region — accounting for 27 per cent of the index — recorded a gain of 0.3 per cent from August to September. The smaller Winnipeg region had the largest percentage increase at 1.4, and Halifax gained 0.7 per cent.

"In Winnipeg, price increases were primarily the result of higher material and labour costs as well as higher land values," Statistics Canada said. "Builders in Halifax cited higher material and labour costs as the main reason for their price increases."

Prices were higher in eight of the 21 metropolitan regions surveyed, while five declined and eight were flat.

Among the regions posting declines, the biggest drop from August to September was in the New Brunswick area encompassing Saint John, Fredericton and Moncton, where the index declined 0.3 per cent. The Edmonton area was also down 0.3 per cent.

"Some builders in Saint John, Fredericton and Moncton cited slower market conditions as the primary reason for their price decreases, while a few builders in Edmonton moved to new development areas with lower priced lots," the agency said.

On a year-over-year basis, prices were up 2.3 per cent in September, in line with 12-month increases in July and August.

The biggest 12-month gains in September were in Winnipeg, up 5.5 per cent, and the Toronto and Oshawa region, up 5.4 per cent.

On Tuesday, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corp. reported housing starts were down 1.1 per cent to an annualized rate of 207,600 units. That compared to 208,800 the month before, revised up from the previously reported 205,900.

Meanwhile, data last week showed construction intention weakened in September, as the value of building permits declined for the third straight month.

StatsCan said permit values fell 4.9 per cent to $5.6 billion during the month.

bmorton@vancouversun.com

-with Postmedia News

© Copyright (c) The Vancouver Sun


Read more: Metro Vancouver new home prices flat in September: Statistics Canada

House prices is definitely moderating. Great news if you are a buyer. Wait for a few more months of data to see if the prices actually falls.

[iEatClams]

^ There's a shiet load of supply coming into the market, permits are going like crazy.

There's so many high-rises and condo complexes coming up, this will help cool the demand.

Make sure u talk to the city and are aware of the developments that are going on in your Neighbourhood, and to make your city aware of your concerns.

Most developments are carefully planned, but there's a lot that slip through the cracks and you get something that ruins the neighbourhood. There are some shoddy developers just building things as fast as they can while the market is good so they can maximize profit and dont give a shiet about the neighbourhoods etc

[iEatClams]

Originally Posted by Watercloset

I believe they didn't spend too much effort trying to befriend local authorities, and they weren't very liked. One day the local government went straight into their living quarters and took all the proof of ownership from them.

The problem is they didnt spend too much effort "bribing" the local authorities. . . . .

[MisterMu]

Originally Posted by azndude69

The problem is they didnt spend too much effort "bribing" the local authorities. . . . .

Truth.

My girlfriend's dad literally didn't get his business license approved until he bribed the local authorities. He tried to do it the normal way but they did not even bother trying to process it, so he gave in and paid the authorities.
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[MoBettah]

Originally Posted by azndude69

The problem is they didnt spend too much effort "bribing" the local authorities. . . . .

In Canada we call these "taxes"

[Death2Theft]

Or permits.

[dat_steve]

Originally Posted by azndude69

Most developments are carefully planned, but there's a lot that slip through the cracks and you get something that ruins the neighbourhood. There are some shoddy developers just building things as fast as they can while the market is good so they can maximize profit and dont give a shiet about the neighbourhoods etc

that's the case with most of those new developments in the richmond garden city/no.3 strips. i have some relatives who bought into the hype and they turned out to be super-crappy-ass-build-quality units. good thing the ML's ate that shit up like a chinese hobo on cha siu bao.

[Jun_Y]

I for the longest time thought the government should tax or put an amount for new immigrants when buying new properties especially the once high end luxury homes that now are almost impossible for even locals to purchase or even bother trying to purchase.

example: all post secondaries all charge at least double the fees to international students and the ones with money pay it with no hesitation. Regardless how well they do which most can't even speak English well after the 4 or however many years they school here. The provincial/municipal government should do the same, taxing or levy international buyers or immigrants. if they want newer generations of the local society to want to stay and support their local economy rather than rely on foreign income.

My parents were immigrants, and they paid high school fees to want to live and remain here but they came here young, schooled and learned English and a skill, worked their ass off and now I did the same schooling and career process and i'm screwed where I can't go fourth to buy a house and raise a family towards another generation in my own hometown where i grew up. So sad. I want out of this shit city.

Foreigners at my work are physically useless and half ass things all the time and can't even buy skill at home depot even if they had all the money to and it pisses me off.
Seriously i need to travel more and get out while still sorta young.

[optiblue]

Originally Posted by Jun_Y

I for the longest time thought the government should tax or put an amount for new immigrants when buying new properties especially the once high end luxury homes that now are almost impossible for even locals to purchase or even bother trying to purchase.

example: all post secondaries all charge at least double the fees to international students and the ones with money pay it with no hesitation. Regardless how well they do which most can't even speak English well after the 4 or however many years they school here. The provincial/municipal government should do the same, taxing or levy international buyers or immigrants. if they want newer generations of the local society to want to stay and support their local economy rather than rely on foreign income.

My parents were immigrants, and they paid high school fees to want to live and remain here but they came here young, schooled and learned English and a skill, worked their ass off and now I did the same schooling and career process and i'm screwed where I can't go fourth to buy a house and raise a family towards another generation in my own hometown where i grew up. So sad. I want out of this shit city.

Foreigners at my work are physically useless and half ass things all the time and can't even buy skill at home depot even if they had all the money to and it pisses me off.
Seriously i need to travel more and get out while still sorta young.

Agree. It's pretty much get used to apartment life or leave. I know some coworkers that chose to leave just because the cost of housing is too high here as well as our same profession in any other province gets paid $3-400/month more as their starting wage. Screw the net zero BC mandate. That's basically taking a paycut especially when minimum wage sees increases.
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[Liquid_o2]

I'm going to use this issue as my final paper topic for my Multicultural Planning class in my Masters program. I'll let you guys know how it goes!

Going to start with some basic research so if anyone has any good links to newspaper articles over the past several years that would be cool.

[iEatClams]

At the land titles office, all the conveyances have chinese names.

The majority of buyers are chinese buyers. They are indirectly increasing the cost of living for the people that live here.

It's going to be tough for kids or soon to be home-owners to one day own their own home. If your a professional making $70K or so and have finally saved up your down payment, you would be pissed that at how crazy expensive it is to live here.

But if you were speculators then you would be happy with the great returns you are having. A lot of these speculators are the foreign buyers themselves.