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Vancouver Off-Topic / Current EventsThe off-topic forum for Vancouver, funnies, non-auto centered discussions, WORK SAFE. While the rules are more relaxed here, there are still rules. Please refer to sticky thread in this forum.
my plan to deal with junkies/homeless if i was premier...
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-Physical test all homeless/junkies
A large portion of those tested are suffering from some level of mental or physical limitation severely limiting suitable positions, which is often what drove them to the street. Furthermore, those with severe addictions to drugs and alcohol would likely not be capable of functioning in any work place setting without receiving in depth treatment.
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- Get them to do odd jobs around the city/province for minimum wage
Unfortunately, we do not live in a society where randomly forcing people do do a job chosen for them by a government administrator is legal.
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- if they do not want to work, they will be cut off from social services
See above, the great majority would choose to work but cannot, those who would chose not to work are likely mentally impaired by addiction.
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- cover shortfall from rent / food / clothing by means of social assistance
See above, they can't work, so the short fall would be 100%.
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- to address jay walking in DTES: Junkies who are injured as a result of jaywalking will not receive medical treatment. simple as that. it will cost 1-2 lives but the example will be made for the greater good.
This statement is so ignorant and appalling that it's barely worth responding to. Beyond the obvious immorality of allowing people to die in our streets after being struck by a vehicle, you could never define legally who is a junkie and under what circumstances medical care should be denied.
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off topic but needed: get the cyclist to pay for using the roads!! A license fee of $120/yr + permits for bikes. riders can be ticketed just like drivers..
Cyclists can be ticketed.
Why would a licence for a bicycle require a fee, when there's no fee for a DL. Who exactly would be required to obtain a license, a five year old child riding a bike in a cul-de-sec is legally no different than a commuter cyclist.
None of what you stated made any sense whatsoever. There are many countries around the world who abandon the least fortunate members of society to die, emigrate if you find that system appealing.
What they need to do is stop screwing around and fix the problem. Lock those addicts up for as long it takes for them to quit their addiction, ignoring there cries of suffering during the process. When they get out put them in a job Placement program some where up north where there are no access to any drugs whatsoever. problems solved and we get a person that can contribute to society then a walking zombie. Posted via RS Mobile
A large portion of those tested are suffering from some level of mental or physical limitation severely limiting suitable positions, which is often what drove them to the street. Furthermore, those with severe addictions to drugs and alcohol would likely not be capable of functioning in any work place setting without receiving in depth treatment.
Unfortunately, we do not live in a society where randomly forcing people do do a job chosen for them by a government administrator is legal.
See above, the great majority would choose to work but cannot, those who would chose not to work are likely mentally impaired by addiction.
See above, they can't work, so the short fall would be 100%.
This statement is so ignorant and appalling that it's barely worth responding to. Beyond the obvious immorality of allowing people to die in our streets after being struck by a vehicle, you could never define legally who is a junkie and under what circumstances medical care should be denied.
Cyclists can be ticketed.
Why would a licence for a bicycle require a fee, when there's no fee for a DL. Who exactly would be required to obtain a license, a five year old child riding a bike in a cul-de-sec is legally no different than a commuter cyclist.
None of what you stated made any sense whatsoever. There are many countries around the world who abandon the least fortunate members of society to die, emigrate if you find that system appealing.
I like to reply, but i have to head out soon...will reply when I'm back ..
In the mean time, what would you do to fix the problem?
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Make the effort and take the risk..
"Do what you feel in your heart to be right- for you'll be criticized anyway. You'll be damned if you do, and damned if you don't." - Eleanor Roosevelt
Now it has me thinking if he were to pull a gun out, how would I react. Would I run him over or just sit there?
Totally run him over. That's why everyone should get cameras installed in the car.
When I used to drive through there, I drove at 30 anyway. Driving a work vehicle and running over someone would surely cost me my job. I would like to avoid that.
But I agree, Robertson is insane. And people who voted Sullivan out are getting what they deserve.
I like to reply, but i have to head out soon...will reply when I'm back ..
In the mean time, what would you do to fix the problem?
The reason the DTES has become such a permanent hole of drug abuse, homelessness and general misery is that the system designed to support those who need help instead encourages the problem to continue. Why do I say that, because addicts spend their social assistance checks within an hour of receiving it on drugs and if I were a strung out addict I would too.
What's needed is a comprehensive system of support that provides addicts with the social services they need to improve their lives.
Begin by taking people off the streets at night.
Set-up a government managed building that provides those receiving services with small private room, nothing special, just enough room for a bed and dresser. Shared wash rooms, living spaces and a kitchen would be provided also. People don't want to be on the street, it's the most miserable experience imaginable so give them a real way to escape that existence.
Get them healthy.
Provide those staying in the building with 24 hour access to healthy and nutritional food, as well as the ability to speak to a nurse daily.
Kick the drugs.
Although drug use isn't prohibited in the building, encourage the residents to get off drugs at every opportunity. Provide daily group meetings, make an addictions specialist available on-site and offer incentives for clean drug tests.
There's a catch to all this though, you can stay in the program in your private room for up to one year if you prove each month that you've been attempting to improve your life.
Last edited by MindBomber; 07-30-2011 at 01:16 PM.
MindBomber - I wholeheartedly agree with your statements and I know that those very proactive approches will work.
BUT - where is the money going to come from? Programs like those costs a lot of money, and I can tell you right now - that there are plenty of people who would rather see that money be spent bettering our schools, etc.
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MindBomber - I wholeheartedly agree with your statements and I know that those very proactive approches will work.
BUT - where is the money going to come from? Programs like those costs a lot of money, and I can tell you right now - that there are plenty of people who would rather see that money be spent bettering our schools, etc.
I wish I could say that my idea would cost tax payers xxxx per month and it would be financed by re-directing funds from xxxx program that currently provides the same services inefficiently. I obviously can't though.
My take is that our system is currently providing welfare checks that do nothing but support drug dealers, check cashing companies and slum lords. Our tax dollars are actually financing and worsening the problem we're trying solve. Re-direct the funds being used now to support those elements to funding the program, further make small cuts to policing as there would hopefully be a reduced need. The balance would need to be paid for by raising revenue and there's no popular way to do that, I believe the citizens of Vancouver would accept that if they were to see real progress though.
Also, these people have to WANT to be helped. With the amount of social support Canada has, you almost have to be going out of your way to live like a filthy animal.
The reason the DTES has become such a permanent hole of drug abuse, homelessness and general misery is that the system designed to support those who need help instead encourages the problem to continue. Why do I say that, because addicts spend their social assistance checks within an hour of receiving it on drugs and if I were a strung out addict I would too.
What's needed is a comprehensive system of support that provides addicts with the social services they need to improve their lives.
Begin by taking people off the streets at night.
Set-up a government managed building that provides those receiving services with small private room, nothing special, just enough room for a bed and dresser. Shared wash rooms, living spaces and a kitchen would be provided also. People don't want to be on the street, it's the most miserable experience imaginable so give them a real way to escape that existence.
Get them healthy.
Provide those staying in the building with 24 hour access to healthy and nutritional food, as well as the ability to speak to a nurse daily.
Kick the drugs.
Although drug use isn't prohibited in the building, encourage the residents to get off drugs at every opportunity. Provide daily group meetings, make an addictions specialist available on-site and offer incentives for clean drug tests.
There's a catch to all this though, you can stay in the program in your private room for up to one year if you prove each month that you've been attempting to improve your life.
Good in theory but unfortunatley most drug users and drunks don't want to be clean.
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The world ain't all sunshine and rainbows. It's a very mean and nasty place... and I donīt care how tough you are, it will beat you to your knees and keep you there permanently, if you let it. You, me or nobody, is gonna hit as hard as life. But ain't about how hard you hit... It's about how hard you can get hit, and keep moving forward... how much you can take, and keep moving forward. Thatīs how winning is done. Now, if you know what you worth, go out and get what you worth. - Rocky Balboa
That's a sterotype forged from the difficulty of overcoming addiction. Posted via RS Mobile
Maybe, but it's been my personal experience from the only two addicts I've personally known very well. Getting high is more important then getting clean, family and health until they're ready to do so.
Offering care isn't enough, most people either wouldn't go or would leave shortly after arriving. Of course overcoming the addicition is the hugeset hurdle but you'll never jump that one until they hit bottom and decide they want to quit, period.
Maybe you have a bunch more experience with addicts and what they want and don't want I don't know but I'm speaking from what I've witnessed with my own two eyes and not some forged stereotype.
__________________
The world ain't all sunshine and rainbows. It's a very mean and nasty place... and I donīt care how tough you are, it will beat you to your knees and keep you there permanently, if you let it. You, me or nobody, is gonna hit as hard as life. But ain't about how hard you hit... It's about how hard you can get hit, and keep moving forward... how much you can take, and keep moving forward. Thatīs how winning is done. Now, if you know what you worth, go out and get what you worth. - Rocky Balboa
I've spent a little time at the soup kitchens and Union Gospel Mission and from what the people at those places tell me, it's NOT hard to get them to take you in for awhile. There's usually room and if not, the waiting list isn't terrible. I've met some people who lived there, got clean and got themselves pointed in the right direction with decent jobs and a temporary place to live.
But there are conditions and lots of people decide that a life on the street doing what they're doing is the better call for some reason.
Maybe, but it's been my personal experience from the only two addicts I've personally known very well. Getting high is more important then getting clean, family and health until they're ready to do so.
Offering care isn't enough, most people either wouldn't go or would leave shortly after arriving. Of course overcoming the addicition is the hugeset hurdle but you'll never jump that one until they hit bottom and decide they want to quit, period.
Maybe you have a bunch more experience with addicts and what they want and don't want I don't know but I'm speaking from what I've witnessed with my own two eyes and not some forged stereotype.
I totally agree, the addicts I've dealt with in my life have been unwilling to seek any level of help until the most severe repercussions force them into it. It's far more complex than that though.
A person with a severe addictions is often battling a feeling of hopelessness, intimidated by the difficulty of getting clean. Having to admit to your family and friends that you have a problem, your employer, removing yourself from your present situation and checking into rehab; that's potentially the biggest and most exposing action any person could ever take. Not to mention the mental changes fuelled by addiction that take place within ones mind.
I would argue however, that a person could sink no lower than the streets of the dtes; they've hit rock bottom and have little or no hope of rising from it. Give them hope, give them an exit and the support they need and I think we'd all be surprised.
Perhaps I'm just an optimist, diluted by my perceptions and novel ideas, but I prefer to have faith that given help people can change.
That's a sterotype forged from the difficulty of overcoming addiction. Posted via RS Mobile
That is not a stereotype. Get involved more instead of stay home and read fictions.
Obviously people can change but some take a whole lot more effort (near impossible) to get them to change than others. I'm currently volunteer for a charity and we get homeless, unfortunate, mental health and even drug addicts get up on their feet. We can only help the people who are determined to stay off the street. The old guy you see selling flowers along Expo Blvd is one of our clients.
From my personal experience, it is extremely hard to deal with severe drug addicts and you need massive funding to get them to change. And even with all the money, it's really really hard as it's very easy to go back to the old way if you are not strong-willed. What stopping them from going back, really? Smoking crack, and getting high seems like a cool thing here. I can say that for some people, staying on the street, scavenging garbage and getting high is more important than getting off drugs, having a bath, having a haircut, having a home or having a job. They have different standards than you, I and the average Joe.
Dealing with people who has mental issue isn't easy as you speak. Some of them have their own places but need constant consultation with professional psychiatrists. A normal person with minimal knowledge wouldn't be able to interact with them properly for a long time. Have you ever tried dealing with one over a long period of time? I have and it's difficult.
The issue is much complicated than what you think it is. Why you think the governments, not just here but around the world, haven't done anything about it? Even if they have billions laying around, it's hard to set up such structure because of many other factors including all the human rights BS. They can't basically round all the drug addicts into camps like some countries in Asia because well, they'll get human rights activists feet up their asses.
As for the speed limit, it's simply a tree hugging move from the tree hugging hippies at the helm. I have a feeling soon they'll enforce that speed limit around the downtown core. I'm eyeing Davie Street, Robson Street, maybe even Granville Street.
That is not a stereotype. Get involved more instead of stay home and read fictions.
I'm native, I'm not creating these ideas based on fiction I watched on youtube, I've seen addiction and it's affects on a personal level.
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Originally Posted by Nlkko
Obviously people can change but some take a whole lot more effort (near impossible) to get them to change than others. I'm currently volunteer for a charity and we get homeless, unfortunate, mental health and even drug addicts get up on their feet. We can only help the people who are determined to stay off the street. The old guy you see selling flowers along Expo Blvd is one of our clients.
I commend you for volunteering your time, more of us should.
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Originally Posted by Nlkko
From my personal experience, it is extremely hard to deal with severe drug addicts and you need massive funding to get them to change. And even with all the money, it's really really hard as it's very easy to go back to the old way if you are not strong-willed. What stopping them from going back, really? Smoking crack, and getting high seems like a cool thing here. I can say that for some people, staying on the street, scavenging garbage and getting high is more important than getting off drugs, having a bath, having a haircut, having a home or having a job. They have different standards than you, I and the average Joe.
Your not understanding the reason they have different standards, your just saying they have them. Without addressing the route of the problem you can't solve it. Long term addiction fundamentally changes one's brain, no healthy person enjoys eating garbage with the knowledge they'll die in an alley.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nlkko
Dealing with people who has mental issue isn't easy as you speak. Some of them have their own places but need constant consultation with professional psychiatrists. A normal person with minimal knowledge wouldn't be able to interact with them properly for a long time. Have you ever tried dealing with one over a long period of time? I have and it's difficult.
I don't think I ever said it was easy to interact with people who have severe mental and developmental issues, but yes, I have spent long periods of time with them. I volunteered at a charity that worked with just such people for over a year, I would continue to do so if I hadn't moved.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nlkko
The issue is much complicated than what you think it is. Why you think the governments, not just here but around the world, haven't done anything about it? Even if they have billions laying around, it's hard to set up such structure because of many other factors including all the human rights BS. They can't basically round all the drug addicts into camps like some countries in Asia because well, they'll get human rights activists feet up their asses.
A big part of it is a lack of will among politicians, just like Gars pointed out earlier, people would simply rather see their tax dollars go towards schools than battling homelessness and addiction. Not to mention people like Tiger and those who thanked him, who proposed refusing medical care to addicts hit by cars. Elect me Mayor of Vancouver, I'll raise property taxes 0.5% on homes worth $1,000,000+ and direct the revenue towards combating homelessness and revitalizing the dtes. Everyone will call me a hippie (which I am) and I'll be crushed in the next election based on that policy alone.
i do not see how this will be even enforced. Like come on, their hands are full enough down there as it is. I think busting a rock pusher is more on the agenda over people going 50 in a 30, in the same area.
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