REVscene - Vancouver Automotive Forum

Great68 · 09-08-2011, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Sports car seizures 'a deep reversal of important rights'

B.C.'s civil liberties watchdog is slamming the possible forfeiture of five high-end sports cars involved in a youth street race last week.

Thirteen young drivers, who are all under the age of 21, were caught racing at speeds of up to 200 kilometres per hour near the Massey Tunnel on Aug. 31.

Mounties aren't recommending any criminal charges, but the Civil Forfeiture Office will pursue the seizure of a handful of the cars.

Micheal Vonn, policy director for the BC Civil Liberties Association, says that response is wildly disproportionate to the offence, especially when none of the young drivers has been charged with a crime.

"This is just an end run around the criminal process," she told ctvbc.ca.

"There's a reason why we don't charge people $1 million for jaywalking. We expect a court to make a fair assessment of what is due in terms of violation or offence."

A baker's dozen of luxury cars -- including Ferraris, Maseratis, Lamborghinis, Mercedes, Aston Martins and Audis -- were seized in Surrey and White Rock in connection to the street race. The vehicles were returned to the young people Thursday after a seven-day impoundment.

Each of the drivers has been issued a $196 ticket for driving without reasonable consideration, but police say there just isn't enough evidence to recommend charges.

"With the criminal avenue closed to us, we decided to see if there was enough evidence to proceed civilly," RCMP Supt. Norm Gaumont said in a release Thursday.

Solicitor General Shirley Bond says that the civil forfeiture office has determined there is enough evidence to file civil claims concerning five of the vehicles.

"We expect people to behave responsibly on the highways," she told reporters.

"I think it's important to send a very strong message that this kind of behaviour is not going to be tolerated."

Bond says the government is trying to protect public safety through the forfeiture action, and promises that the cars' owners will have a fair shake in court.

BCCLA ‘caught off guard' by forfeitures

Vonn says this marks the latest in a series of troubling examples of forfeiture claims made by the B.C. government.

"We've seen a real pile-up here in scenarios in which we've been caught off guard," she said.

Earlier this week, the B.C. Supreme Court ruled that the government can go ahead with its lawsuit seeking to seize a former grow-op home on Vancouver Island, even though the house's owner was acquitted of all drug charges against him.

And in February, a judge approved the seizure of two East Vancouver properties worth almost $1 million, although the homes' owner was never charged and wasn't aware that his tenants were operating sophisticated grow-ops inside.

"Is a $1-million fine appropriate for failing to know what your tenants were doing?" Vonn asked

"This is a deep reversal of some very important rights of all citizens."

Von says the B.C. public was misinformed when the government brought in legislation allowing civil forfeitures. She says the understanding was that the law would allow the government to seize the proceeds of organized crime.

"When this law was brought in we were told ... this would be all about gangs," she said. "[These recent cases are] not what people think about at all when they think about the fruits of crime."

She points out that the criminal justice system does allow for seizures of property connected to crime -- as long as the accused person has been found guilty.

"We're not opposed to the idea of criminal forfeitures," Vonn said. "There's no civil right to maintain the fruits of crime."

But the civil justice system requires a different standard of proof entirely, and the criminal benchmark of "beyond a reasonable doubt" doesn't come into play. And unlike in criminal cases, people involved in civil lawsuits do not have the right to legal aid.

B.C.'s law on civil forfeiture has been tested in the Supreme Court of Canada, Vonn says, but that case only asked whether it's appropriate for the province to make seizures when criminal law is a federal matter.

But she says that if the BCCLA sees a good opportunity to test the law again based on what it sees as misuses of power, it will consider taking the province to court.

The B.C. government says that the profits made from civil forfeitures go towards supporting victims of crime.

CTV British Columbia - Sports car seizures 'a deep reversal of important rights' - CTV News

Damn right

FOREVER · 09-08-2011, 03:39 PM

No charges for young street racers - News1130

an additional link

DHP 1 · 09-08-2011, 03:42 PM

about time

ecchiecchi · 09-08-2011, 04:09 PM

Stop being jelly gais.

civic_rice · 09-08-2011, 05:42 PM

Hmm about time some heat is lifted from us imports and shifted on exotics
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Marco911 · 09-08-2011, 07:30 PM

I hope they hire good lawyers and reverse these ridiculous "laws" for the rest of us.

shenmecar · 09-08-2011, 07:43 PM

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She feels parents need to talk to their kids about safe driving.

Those 5 kids probably got new race cars already.

BaoTurbo · 09-08-2011, 09:18 PM

Stupid kids. End of story.

Amen.

ecchiecchi · 09-08-2011, 11:00 PM

LOL- Can you guys honestly say you want their cars forfeited for the greater good?

Admit it, it's jealousy talking. You guys hoping for forfeiture couldn't care any less about the greater good.

bing · 09-08-2011, 11:17 PM

^i think people should be concerned, it may not be them having their shit seized today, but it could be them tomorrow (if they fuck up).

It is up to an informed and alert citizenry in a democratic society to keep vigilance against arbitrary police powers (I think we take this too much for granted, but this protects us from moving towards a police state).

p.s. judging from the replies in this thread, you can really tell who understands how our legal system works (educated) and those with great first-hand experiences that are in line with reality versus those who are simply talking out of their ass.

bing · 09-08-2011, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil@rise

Actually it is how our legal system is implemented. Your right its not supposed to be but it is. From drug busts to road rage and street racing.
So its no surprise thats how it was carried out here but my point was if there is no evidence the charges will be dropped and the cars will be returned.

Traffic offenses (if they are non-criminal) are different than say criminal offenses in that they can be issued immediately regardless of evidence. Criminal charges in B.C. on the other hand (as well as in Quebec and New Brunswick) must be approved by Crown counsel based on certain criteria (ex: admissibility of evidence, lack of evidence, likelihood of conviction, etc).

observer · 09-09-2011, 02:34 AM

"Gaumont said the vehicles were by definition "street racing" and that the drivers were travelling at more than twice the 90-km/h speed limit.

And he cited the disregard by the drivers for others on the road that day, as well as the potential for catastrophic injury or death, as factors that could be considered in the forfeiture process."

If you ask me, cops are dragging on this stupid story to divert public attention over their failure in handling the hockey riot.

FerrariEnzo · 09-09-2011, 05:04 AM

i find it funny when they say that there isnt enough evidence of criminal act..

SPEEDING on the hwy which endangers other lives... thats enough in it self..

they should be BANNED from having a drivers license, especially the N drivers... then put them under house arrest... no going out after 8pm or something.. FUCKING kids need to learn the hard way...

Vale46Rossi · 09-09-2011, 05:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FerrariEnzo

i find it funny when they say that there isnt enough evidence of criminal act..

SPEEDING on the hwy which endangers other lives... thats enough in it self..

they should be BANNED from having a drivers license, especially the N drivers... then put them under house arrest... no going out after 8pm or something.. FUCKING kids need to learn the hard way...

You are fucking retarded.

You find it funny because you are uneducated about the legal system.

When did it say they have enough evidence? The police only have hearsay evidence, for all we know it could be 1 car full of people that is jealous and called it in.

I don't even want to talk to you about your logic in giving them house arrest and drivers license ban.

If we have retards like you making laws everyone in the world would be arrested.

EDub_ · 09-09-2011, 06:10 AM

^^Agreed, if there was hard evidence, or if they could get these people who called in to testify, perhaps they might have a case. This whole scenario is starting to get on my nerves..

91civicZC · 09-09-2011, 06:28 AM

"Earlier this week, the B.C. Supreme Court ruled that the government can go ahead with its lawsuit seeking to seize a former grow-op home on Vancouver Island, even though the house's owner was acquitted of all drug charges against him.

And in February, a judge approved the seizure of two East Vancouver properties worth almost $1 million, although the homes' owner was never charged and wasn't aware that his tenants were operating sophisticated grow-ops inside. "

Re Read the above, think about it for a moment, and then realize how fucked up that is.

The civic forfeiture law needs to be removed and heavily amended if it’s going to be put back in place.

Thanks RCMP Supt. Norm Gaumont, The VPD is still working to charge people caught on video tape in a riot, but the RCMP is going to be damn sure they try to take some kids property on the hearsay of other drivers. Good job! I know I feel safer.

Marco911 · 09-09-2011, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 91civicZC

"Earlier this week, the B.C. Supreme Court ruled that the government can go ahead with its lawsuit seeking to seize a former grow-op home on Vancouver Island, even though the house's owner was acquitted of all drug charges against him.

And in February, a judge approved the seizure of two East Vancouver properties worth almost $1 million, although the homes' owner was never charged and wasn't aware that his tenants were operating sophisticated grow-ops inside. "

Re Read the above, think about it for a moment, and then realize how fucked up that is.

The civic forfeiture law needs to be removed and heavily amended if it’s going to be put back in place.

Thanks RCMP Supt. Norm Gaumont, The VPD is still working to charge people caught on video tape in a riot, but the RCMP is going to be damn sure they try to take some kids property on the hearsay of other drivers. Good job! I know I feel safer.

They are pursuing civil forfeiture against the drivers that have bad driving records. That makes it even more fucked up.

taylor192 · 09-09-2011, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marco911

They are pursuing civil forfeiture against the drivers that have bad driving records. That makes it even more fucked up.

How so? if anything it makes it more appropriate to target only the bad drivers. Many of them are 'N' new divers, so if they cannot learn from their past mistakes they should lose their privilege to drive. Since these are kids who can easily afford the fine to just drive with a suspended license, suspending their license alone will not serve the punishment the law intends. Thus setting a standard of forfeiting their vehicles if caught is IMHO "fair" punishment for those who can afford to break the law.

I really wish we had laws in Canada where the fine was linked to your ability to pay. A fine is supposed to be a deterrent, and a $196 fine to a person driving a $200K car isn't much of a deterrent. Remember, I make a good salary, so I am in essence asking for fines to be higher for myself too, cause $196 isn't much of a deterrent for me either.

Gh0stRider · 09-09-2011, 09:22 AM

Quote:

There will be no clean getaway for at least five of the drivers involved in a spectacular exotic-car street race last week.

The RCMP and Solicitor General Shirley Bond announced Thursday that the province is going forward with the civil-forfeiture process to permanently seize five of the 13 super cars busted in a Deas Island street race.

Bond said the B.C. Civil Forfeiture Office is compiling its case now and will file a claim in B.C. Supreme Court next week.

“This kind of behaviour is not going to be tolerated,” Bond said. “(Civil forfeiture of exotic cars) isn’t new, but certainly when you look at this case, it’s pretty shocking when you have 13 vehicles involved.”

The cars, driven mostly by new drivers, included a Ferrari 599, three Lamborghinis, and an Aston Martin DB9, among others.

Police say the drivers were racing in excess of 200 kilometres per hour during the wild daytime incident. Mounties said they do not have enough evidence for criminal charges.

Bond would not say which of the 13 cars are up for forfeiture.

If the government’s court claim is successful, the office could then auction off the cars and take part of the proceeds to pay for public-safety initiatives.

Metro - Racers' rides going nowhere fast

.Renn.Sport · 09-09-2011, 09:39 AM

So... Since when was the Canadian law turned into Communist law?

This civil forfeiture is bs.... even the Chinese don't forfeit stuff without hard evidence!

Marco911 · 09-09-2011, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by taylor192

How so? if anything it makes it more appropriate to target only the bad drivers. Many of them are 'N' new divers, so if they cannot learn from their past mistakes they should lose their privilege to drive. Since these are kids who can easily afford the fine to just drive with a suspended license, suspending their license alone will not serve the punishment the law intends. Thus setting a standard of forfeiting their vehicles if caught is IMHO "fair" punishment for those who can afford to break the law.

I really wish we had laws in Canada where the fine was linked to your ability to pay. A fine is supposed to be a deterrent, and a $196 fine to a person driving a $200K car isn't much of a deterrent. Remember, I make a good salary, so I am in essence asking for fines to be higher for myself too, cause $196 isn't much of a deterrent for me either.

Driving is a privilege but ownership of private property is a right. If the govt wants to prevent someone from driving they can suspend their license. While the fine is not a deterrent, the points system is. Too many points and you lose your license. All drivers received 6 points and the right to dispute the violation in traffic court where evidence must be presented before a justice of the peace to sustain the charge. That is a system of checks and balances that we can expect in a democratic society. Forced impounds and property seizures are not.

If you think confiscating their cars will prevent them from driving, think again. The are still licensed and can legally drive. Perhaps you would support chopping off their arms and legs as the "final solution" to the alleged aggressive driving problem?

xpl0sive · 09-09-2011, 09:52 AM

i though the whole point of the civil forfeture act was to take away property from criminals due to the property being proceeds of crime. drug dealers getting their vehicles taken away, but that can only happen if there is enough evidence against them where the crown can PROVE that they paid for the vehicle with drug money.... in this case, the vehicles are not proceeds of crime. they were allegedly used in a "race". the article itself says that the police do not have enough evidence to proceed with criminal charges... so on what basis can their vehicles be taken away? because of a bunch of witnesses that cannot even confirm exactly how fast these cars were going? give me a break, this is all such bullshit

Marco911 · 09-09-2011, 10:06 AM

I don't get the whole "seizing the vehicles of drivers with bad records" either. It's pretty difficult to have a bad driving record and remain licensed in BC these days, particularly if you're an N driver. It's an outrage that someone merely in the group that might not have been driving aggressively is subject to having their parent's vehicle forfeited.

Marco911 · 09-09-2011, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xpl0sive

i though the whole point of the civil forfeture act was to take away property from criminals due to the property being proceeds of crime. drug dealers getting their vehicles taken away, but that can only happen if there is enough evidence against them where the crown can PROVE that they paid for the vehicle with drug money.... in this case, the vehicles are not proceeds of crime. they were allegedly used in a "race". the article itself says that the police do not have enough evidence to proceed with criminal charges... so on what basis can their vehicles be taken away? because of a bunch of witnesses that cannot even confirm exactly how fast these cars were going? give me a break, this is all such bullshit

The seizure laws are written to such a general extent that they can be used in almost any circumstance where they feel public safety is at risk. Ie driving at 50 km/h in a school zone could theoretically qualify. It's the same with the bullshit charge of careless driving, which has no specific criteria and allows the cops to impound your car if they feel like it. Of course, you can dispute the careless driving charge and it'll be likely dropped but you dont have much legal protection if they go after you civilly.

originalhypa · 09-09-2011, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by taylor192

I really wish we had laws in Canada where the fine was linked to your ability to pay.

You should move to Libya.

Oh yeah, they just did away with their dictator too, so maybe that won't fit your view of utopia. Maybe North Korea will fit the bill?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marco911

Perhaps you would support chopping off their arms and legs as the "final solution" to the alleged aggressive driving problem?

It makes me wonder if this phenomenon of harsh punishment comes from immigrants bringing their crooked ideologies to our nation, or is it simply just hatred and ignorance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xpl0sive

this is all such bullshit

agreed.

A sad time for BC justice. Or lack thereof.