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-   -   Wall Street Protests (https://www.revscene.net/forums/654395-wall-street-protests.html)

bing 10-10-2011 03:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by azndude69 (Post 7608353)
A lot of it is all relative, but Americans think paying a 50% top tax rate in Canada is insane.
I remember hearing from a dentist that the top income bracket is actually over 50%. At the time, it made me think it was quite ridiculous that the government could take more than half of what you made. On the other hand, I think that since we have decent social programs, which cost money, I think the high tax can be somewhat justified as free health care and cheap education cost our government quite a bit. Overall, I can't complain, I think we have it pretty good here in Canada versus the U.S., and our banks invested more conservatively so I see our situation as different from the Wall Street protesters.

Gridlock 10-10-2011 03:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bing (Post 7608525)
You've used that quote multiple times, but each time I can't help but think it's a bit misleading and needs to be looked at in context. This applies more to the U.S. because in Canada our taxes are relatively higher. Apparently, Buffett made 46 million and was taxed 17.7% while his secretary made 60,000 and was taxed 30% (without him trying to avoid paying any taxes). 17.7% is still 7820000 in taxes paid while 30% of 60,000 is 18,000, so technically, he still paid a lot more tax than most people will ever in their lifetime each year.

I would think that the favorable tax policy is to encourage entrepreneurs and investors to use that leftover money to build and invest in companies to CREATE jobs for people. Abilities that the majority of people don't have, or don't have the balls for (risk), and thus I don't think you can compare them with his employees who do jobs that are easily trainable (earning a wage is relatively safe). One of my uncle with no financial help, created his medium sized company from scratch. One guy, who ended up creating GOOD jobs for a number of people, his engineers made 50-60k USD (in the 80s when money and the USD were worth a lot more than CAD). If we want jobs, especially good ones, we need to cultivate entrepreneurs who can innovate. Even if we take a look at Vancouver, we don't have many great jobs because we lack industries. So what a blessing it is to get a company like E.A. to set up here, suddenly we have great paying software engineering jobs.

Interesting fact: Forbes, half of all US billionaire's are self-made.
All true.

But are they?

If that is the goal, and its trotted out everytime that someone brings upu Buffett, then people should be able to point out all the new companies that are innovating and creating new opportunity. BUT...

The gov't had to back 1/2 billion in loans to a solar panel manufacturer, and they went bust.

Yes, I am aware that it was to create green jobs, that may not have the usual returns that billionaires would look for.

If the billionaires are causing all this growth, and new investment, then the housing crisis should have been a blip in a graph, because the employment levels would be so low, that it wouldn't have happened. They've had 30 years of the money to let it trickle, but it hasn't. Open your eyes. It is sitting, at the top.

Why would I want to put m,y money in harm's way, when whatever I did to get it in the first place is still going, and I have enough to live 10 lives over without doing anything?

I'm not sitting here advocating "overthrow!" "Fuck the proletariat" "Screw the rich!" We need the rich. Greed is good. I just think that you need a fair system, where everyone has a fair shot. To me, I think it sounds reasonable that 1% get 10%, and 99% share 90%. Without that system of incentive, then you stagnate. There needs to be a group that the rest aspire to become.

Fuck...americans are the richest country, and they can't even score some fucking healthcare out of the system.

How is anyone questioning why that group on the street should even be pissed?

Death2Theft 10-10-2011 03:41 PM
Warren buffet is the biggest schiester of them all. He stands to gain way more than u could possibly tax him for. Milk more money out of the middle class thereby justifying more money for bailouts, which is given directly to the banks he has shares in, which then sends the money off shore. Why can't people connect the dots? http://ricochet.com/main-feed/Warren...es-on-the-Rich
Just because he's a harmless looking old guy doesn't mean squat he is a wolf in sheeps clothing. http://charliebroadway.blogspot.com/...n-buffett.html


The gov spent 737$ million to create 45 permanent job at solyndra. Does that sound like a good use of tax money? http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2011...ws-solar-firm/
Now with them phasing out coal plants not run by GE, with that kind of $ to watts ratio are americans going to get... i'd be deathly afraid as an American. Thank god we have fresh water from the mountains that doesn't get flouride added to it. Thank god we make enough electricity from hydro so we can sell it to the states. Thank god we dont have BS EPA agencies try to shut our power down due to false and unproven claims. The enviro laws are so strict down there that the green coal plants produce water /steam out of the plants, they use miles of filtering equipment yet EPA still shutting them down.

zulutango 10-10-2011 04:09 PM
The bigwigs behind solyndra were Obama's election team "bundlers" who raised millions behind the scenes to get him elected. They got to visit him several times a week at the WH while the deal was being set up. They re-wrote the terms of the signed contract to allow solyndra to default on a progress payment last December, while ignoring the info they had about the financial mess they were in.

Spartacus 10-10-2011 07:53 PM
Insight video on how people are camping out at wall street.

http://player.vimeo.com/video/30081785

zulutango 10-10-2011 08:29 PM
"How is anyone questioning why that group on the street should even be pissed? "

I wonder if that group you mention are those in the 49% who pay no federal income tax at all and want those 1% who pay 40% of the total, to pay even more? Maybe a flat tax would even things out a bit more? I know that when I worked OT and ended up loosing almost 60% in tax I decided that it wasn't worth the effort anymore.

Death2Theft 10-10-2011 08:33 PM
Very heartwarming, to see people donating to help people stay on the streets. I figured that the bankers are just waiting for the snow to freeze these people out, however with the donations it looks like that might not happen.

taylor192 10-10-2011 09:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Culverin (Post 7608186)
I disagree. Our system as you so put it is based on freedom.
Socialism is not freedom. Having the rich support the poor is not freedom, its dependence.

I respect that you want the freedom to make stupid decisions, yet my taxes should not be used to subsidize your stupid decisions - as most post secondary education is subsidized.

Meowjin 10-10-2011 09:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by taylor192 (Post 7609058)
Socialism is not freedom. Having the rich support the poor is not freedom, its dependence.

I respect that you want the freedom to make stupid decisions, yet my taxes should not be used to subsidize your stupid decisions - as most post secondary education is subsidized.
talking like your a top income earner :lol:

Culverin 10-10-2011 11:41 PM
I would just like to side track this matter for a moment here.

What Would Jesus Do?
Here's what I think.

1. Arm himself with a non-lethal but painful weapon.
2. Drive out the bankers with it.
3. Bankrupt the investment firms.
4. (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻


Not particularly relevant.
Unless you claim you're a right wing economy Christian (like myself).
In which case, you might reconsider which side you are on.


I'm just saying....


Please resume your regularly scheduled whatever it is...

goo3 10-10-2011 11:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gridlock (Post 7608585)
All true.

But are they?

If that is the goal, and its trotted out everytime that someone brings upu Buffett, then people should be able to point out all the new companies that are innovating and creating new opportunity. BUT...

The gov't had to back 1/2 billion in loans to a solar panel manufacturer, and they went bust.

Yes, I am aware that it was to create green jobs, that may not have the usual returns that billionaires would look for.

If the billionaires are causing all this growth, and new investment, then the housing crisis should have been a blip in a graph, because the employment levels would be so low, that it wouldn't have happened. They've had 30 years of the money to let it trickle, but it hasn't. Open your eyes. It is sitting, at the top.
I think he's talking about entrepreneurs who are not yet billionaires looking to create opportunity in areas where the established players aren't interested or looking at: the next millionaires, billionaires, or even just small biz owners.

MindBomber 10-11-2011 12:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gridlock (Post 7608585)
Fuck...americans are the richest country, and they can't even score some fucking healthcare out of the system.
Americans are the wealthiest country, because they are the greediest and perhaps most devoid of morals within the developed world, which in turn explains why their politicians are up in arms over the concept of a health care system replacing their health care cash grab.

Meowjin 10-11-2011 12:32 AM
seems like riot police have taken out 5-6 protests as i type this in various cities... intresting...

Culverin 10-11-2011 01:11 AM
Yeah, seems like there's a coordinated crackdown going on right now.
They are doing this in the dark without the presences of corporate media and when there are less people.

Boston protests got raided. What else went down? I can't track it all at once.

Spartacus 10-11-2011 02:13 AM
For those who aren't up to date with whats going on, you can read this.

Timeline of Occupy Wall Street - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Meowjin 10-11-2011 03:07 AM
haha adbusters. Sweet vancouver main street hipsters.

Death2Theft 10-11-2011 03:54 AM
Not christian at all but I heard the only time Christ got violent with another man was when the "money changers" decided to sell sacraficial animals for some ritual but you could only buy these animals with a special coin, which was worth many times more than normal. Hence forcing people to over pay. Christ was so upset with this that he flipped over the mans tables and beat him with a cat of nine tails.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Culverin (Post 7609267)
I would just like to side track this matter for a moment here.

What Would Jesus Do?
Here's what I think.

1. Arm himself with a non-lethal but painful weapon.
2. Drive out the bankers with it.
3. Bankrupt the investment firms.
4. (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻


Not particularly relevant.
Unless you claim you're a right wing economy Christian (like myself).
In which case, you might reconsider which side you are on.


I'm just saying....


Please resume your regularly scheduled whatever it is...

StylinRed 10-11-2011 04:37 AM
it is a bit odd isn't it how there isnt 24/7 coverage of this like the media does for other countries ;)


but the US is prepared if this really hits the fan since they built those "secret" concentration camps after 9/11 and invested in those elite riot dispersement weapons (like that microwave beam that causes unbearable pain or the targeted insanely high decible speakers)

taylor192 10-11-2011 07:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MindBomber (Post 7609289)
Americans are the wealthiest country, because they are the greediest and perhaps most devoid of morals within the developed world, which in turn explains why their politicians are up in arms over the concept of a health care system replacing their health care cash grab.
How little you understand...

Do you know many Americans that would benefit from universal healthcare actually oppose it? It doesn't make sense to us looking in, why would those without coverage or with lack luster coverage vote against universal health care? Especially since those same people are usually in the ~50% that pay no federal tax and wouldn't pay for this universal system. America was not built on those looking for others to pay their way, it was built on the "American dream" of earning it yourself. America was built on freedom, liberty, ... and they do not want something "universal" even if its to their detriment.

Those protesting on Wall Street are not the 99%, hell they probably aren't even the 50%.

Gridlock 10-11-2011 08:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by taylor192 (Post 7609457)
How little you understand...

Do you know many Americans that would benefit from universal healthcare actually oppose it? It doesn't make sense to us looking in, why would those without coverage or with lack luster coverage vote against universal health care? Especially since those same people are usually in the ~50% that pay no federal tax and wouldn't pay for this universal system. America was not built on those looking for others to pay their way, it was built on the "American dream" of earning it yourself. America was built on freedom, liberty, ... and they do not want something "universal" even if its to their detriment.

Those protesting on Wall Street are not the 99%, hell they probably aren't even the 50%.
But here is how you get there. That system does not apply to all. If it were, there are a few banks that would have had a spectacular fall in 2008, and no one would be able to buy GM made crap.

Too big to fail would have been "spectacular crash".

I'm not saying I am with these people. I guess I am saying I understand why they are there.

And I totally get the stat that over 50% have paid no tax-and the aggravation that causes.

I guess I understand why they are there because the system is so screwed, people don't know what to do anymore.

iEatClams 10-11-2011 09:39 AM
Corporations are eliminating jobs and shipping them overseas. They offshore their profits and lobby for tax credits and loopholes that allow them to pay little to no tax. How can they expect the average person to support them?

The US model of supply side economics with their trickle down theory isn't working. Lower taxes, smaller governments and less government regulations lead to the current mess that the US is in. Companies have had lower taxes and increased their cash reserves but have not done any hiring.

These companies then blame it on uncertainty as to why they are not hiring. The real truth is that there is no demand for them to produce or hire more.

Demand side economics is where if consumers have a desire for a certain product, companies will try to produce it, and thus hire people that in turn will spin the economy.

Henry ford paid his workers well, and this allowed them to one day afford his cars.
If companies paid workers better with more people working, and the average person had more $, they would demand more goods and would ultimately help corporations.

iEatClams 10-11-2011 09:46 AM
I hope Canada follows in the footsteps of Scandanavian countries, where they have 100% literacy rates, high personal tax rates, rank high in competitiveness, spend shietloads on education and improve workers skills.

We should have corporations paying their fair share, and improving the majority, instead of improving the select few. The Norwegian Social Democratic government, with there Oil Fund (the world's largest), has over $570 Billion, compared to Alberta fund, which has $14 Billion with their massive Oil Sands.

But many right wingers wont allow this because they don't want Canada to become an even more "socialist" country. Look how the USA is turning out?

Gridlock 10-11-2011 11:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by azndude69 (Post 7609569)
I hope Canada follows in the footsteps of Scandanavian countries, where they have 100% literacy rates, high personal tax rates, rank high in competitiveness, spend shietloads on education and improve workers skills.

We should have corporations paying their fair share, and improving the majority, instead of improving the select few. The Norwegian Social Democratic government, with there Oil Fund (the world's largest), has over $570 Billion, compared to Alberta fund, which has $14 Billion with their massive Oil Sands.

But many right wingers wont allow this because they don't want Canada to become an even more "socialist" country. Look how the USA is turning out?
Well, I for one don't want that. I like the balance we have, and don't want to see it disrupted, NDP style.

I have no problem with people earning, and working their fair share, with a healthy safety net, that is relied on as that, a safety net, not a hammock.

And apart from the peacenik hippies, I think most people frustrated in the US would be looking for just afair system where people can get ahead.

taylor192 10-11-2011 12:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by azndude69 (Post 7609569)
I hope Canada follows in the footsteps of Scandanavian countries, where they have 100% literacy rates, high personal tax rates, rank high in competitiveness, spend shietloads on education and improve workers skills.
They also have very low immigration and very tight immigration.

How many people posting in this thread wouldn't be here if we had similar immigration rules?

Then remember we're on a car forum, how many of us wouldn't be able to afford our hobby if we lived there?

What's the point of being educated if I cannot get ahead? Scandanavian people have a greater sense of the "greater good" while North American attitudes are towards the "American dream" of individual success.

gars 10-11-2011 01:15 PM
Norway also only has a population of just under 5 million people. With such a large oil reserves, of course they can spend tons of money.


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