Christopher Hitchens died today

[Ronin]

Originally Posted by woob

I understand you are trying to be the voice of reason here, but in the interest of bettering society, we have to be critical of each others actions and motives. I agree that religion can motivate people to do good things, but religion is the basis for many policy-makers' decisions around the world (see: marriage inequality) and people like Chuck Norris are endorsing teaching the Bible as history in the US, when at most it should be treated as literature. This is double plus uncool as it corrupts young kids. It may not indoctrinate them, but I'm sure those that have less than stellar critical thinking skills will fall into the creationism hole. This is pure mis-education.

I have many religious friends and the religious/atheist dichotomy does not interfere with our daily interactions, but when it comes to political decisions that can affect my way of living, the importance of the religious debate escalates far past "live and let live."

-------------------

A nice quote from someone on reddit: "When Christians recognize the deep-seated need for social justice that their religion demands, they can do incredibly great things, beyond all imagining, and uplift humanity out of suffering and deprivation.

When they forget, there is no greater evil that humanity can know."

But that's what I'm talking about. Just about all the bad things about most religion are driven by their need to spread their message to others. If every religion was just about shutting the fuck up and sharing just with those who have the same beliefs, then pretty much every war prior to the 20th century may not have happened.

This goes for atheists too. If atheist spent a little less time trying to convince religious people they're stupid, then this thread would be all about saying some RIPs for a dude rather than a debate about religion.

Most religions tell you to spread the word but I personally don't subscribe to any of that. If someone wants to hear about my religion, I'd be happy to tell them but if someone doesn't want to hear about it or doesn't ask, then I can't be bothered to talk about it. If I meet someone and they tell me they're Muslim...great. If they tell me they're Jewish...cool. I have zero opinion about it.

Religion is about truth at it's core and I don't feel like anyone has the right to tell anyone else what they should hold as true since that basically defines you as a person.

I treat religion like the army used to treat homosexuality: don't ask, don't tell. I honestly don't care what your beliefs are nor do I have a fuck to give for what you think about mine. Pretty much the only time I'd ever ask is maybe a few dates in with a girl because...well, that matters if it leads to anything.

But otherwise, it never matters. I will fight over a heck of a lot of things but not religion. Maybe it's because I care very little about people that aren't family or friends...or at least connected on Facebook...in general.

[unit]

Originally Posted by SkinnyPupp

Atheist isn't a "belief" in anything, it's an acknowledgement in lack of 'belief' in fairy tales.

its a belief in our understanding of science being absolute.

the true belief in nothing is to be agnostic. its to be humble enough to believe that perhaps we know nothing at all.

[LiquidTurbo]

Originally Posted by woob

Calling atheism is a religion (belief system) is like calling bald is a hair colour. Simply, it isn't.

With atheism, there is no dogma, there is no encouraged moral code, there is no specific doctrine to follow. The only requirement to labeling oneself as an atheist is having a lack of belief in a deity.

+1.

[LiquidTurbo]

Originally Posted by The7even

Calling atheism a religion would be like calling bald a hair color.. but unit didn't call it a religion. He called it a belief, which is what it is . You believe that to be true.
Belief and religion are different.

With that said, you have an opinion, which is that X, Y or Z do not exist. That IS a belief, you can't prove that it doesn't exist and therefore it is a belief. Just like I can't prove that the flying spaghetti monster doesn't exist, but I believe that X Y or Z do.

A belief in God requires faith.
A belief in no God requires that that person only believe in what he/she can see touch or feel and that anything outside of that doesn't exist.

Both are still beliefs because neither can be proved or disproved.
What part of that doesn't make sense?

Again, please remember, he didn't call atheism a religion.




Which in and of it self is a belief

You believe there isn't, I believe there is. Both have a word in common, I'm sure you can find it. (Yes, I sound condescending, but come on, they both are what they are).



Oh and I don't see how this thread is bad in anyway.. a thread about theism, atheism that isn't a flame war.. and somehow it's labeled as stupid or fail? Give me a break, RS.

I think he was referring to atheism as a 'belief system'.

You can pick and choose and argue the semantics all you want. At the end of the day there shouldn't even be a label for atheists. Just like how there are no labels for

Non-astrologers.. (A-astrologers?) or
Non-alchemists?


To call atheism an belief is just..

[Excelsis]

it is a belief to a certain extent, if you set your mind free, if you just live in the now, if you just passively observe, then you'd be free of all beliefs

anyways, religion creates a lot of controversy between people, there are christians and then there are sub-groups within it; catholics, orthodox, lutheran, etc, you name it and why? different small rules..

People are too focused on trying to prove someone that God exists or he doesn't, ending up in all sorts of conflicts

Although the bible teaches ethic lessons with the numerous parables in it which is not a bad thing

Personally, i think God is within myself, a power greater than anything which pushes me to keep going and to have faith in myself

but that's my opinion, so don't get butthurt about it

[unit]

Originally Posted by LiquidTurbo

I think he was referring to atheism as a 'belief system'.

You can pick and choose and argue the semantics all you want. At the end of the day there shouldn't even be a label for atheists. Just like how there are no labels for

Non-astrologers.. (A-astrologers?) or
Non-alchemists?


To call atheism an belief is just..

if you are positive that a higher being does not exist then that belief is based on science. that is still a belief even if you consider it to be a fact.

[SkinnyPupp]

Originally Posted by unit

if you are positive that a higher being does not exist then that belief is based on science. that is still a belief even if you consider it to be a fact.

Nobody is positive that a higher being doesn't exist. Just that it is literally impossible to prove. Therefore, a story made up by people. And that's not what I want to devote my life to.

See this is why you simply can't argue about it. Because only one side is willing to say they don't know the definitive answer. The other side thinks they do, because they have given up their mind to it.
Posted via RS Mobile

[unit]

ok i may have the definition of atheism wrong but basically if you can accept the fact that there MIGHT be some form of a god and there might not be, then we are in agreement.
my perceptions of atheists are formed by seeing people thump their opinions of their rejection of the possibility of a god onto others. maybe i read too much /r/atheism lol

[Excelsis]

for the atheists in here, I'm curious what you think of ghosts?
Posted via RS Mobile

[Lomac]

You know what's also amazing? Many religious people are also atheists themselves. Why? Because even though they may believe their own god exists, they often refuse to acknowledge that another religion's god exists as well.

Just another things to consider.

[Lomac]

Originally Posted by Alpha v2

for the atheists in here, I'm curious what you think of ghosts?
Posted via RS Mobile

I'm not what most people would consider to be an atheist. I believe that there's something out there that we can't explain, but I never really believed in ghosts. I used to think that they were basically figments of people's imaginations. However, when I was a kid, my dad swore up and down he saw a ghost-like apparition of our old dog standing guard over me and my brother while we slept. The thing that struck me about this is that he is probably the most anti-religious, anti-spiritual, anti-ghost, anti-basically anything else related sort of person you'll ever meet. For someone like him to admit something like that... it makes me think. I still don't believe that there are ghosts, but it's certainly opened me up to the possibility that maybe I'm wrong.

There's a quote I love. Yes, it's from Dogma, but that doesn't change what I feel is the significance behind it:

"I think it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier. Life should malleable and progressive; working from idea to idea permits that. Beliefs anchor you to certain points and limit growth; new ideas can't generate. Life becomes stagnant."

[Excelsis]

those are bruce lee's words I believe
Posted via RS Mobile

[Lomac]

Originally Posted by Alpha v2

those are bruce lee's words I believe
Posted via RS Mobile

That's very possible. The first time I heard 'em were in the Dogma movie, that's all.

[The7even]

Originally Posted by SkinnyPupp

Nobody is positive that a higher being doesn't exist. Just that it is literally impossible to prove. Therefore, a story made up by people. And that's not what I want to devote my life to.

See this is why you simply can't argue about it. Because only one side is willing to say they don't know the definitive answer. The other side thinks they do, because they have given up their mind to it.
Posted via RS Mobile

I'll dissect this sentence by sentence.

Nobody is positive that a higher being doesn't exist.

Okay, I'm with yo so far..

Just that it is literally impossible to prove

100% Fully agreed on. It's impossible. So then tell me, since when does the impossibility of proving the existence of something [so far] rule it out as non-existent?

Therefore, a story made up by people.

Tell me, does that also then apply to the Higg's Boson?

And that's not what I want to devote my life to.

And that is also perfectly fine.

See this is why you simply can't argue about it.

Okay, why?

Because only one side is willing to say they don't know the definitive answer.

Great point, and can be used to defeat any religious idiot in a debate.
But I'm not that guy. And I've admitted that I don't know the when why where and the how. I just stated multiple times that a religion takes faith.. which means reaching my answer based on faith, not definitive 100% irrefutable fact.

In the end, we both have the same amount of evidence, it's easy to go one way or the other. My way requires a leap of faith, your's says "I'll be on the cautionary side and not jump into something I'm not 100% sure about" Which is like I said multiple times, just fine, and really no better or worse than the path I chose.

The other side thinks they do, because they have given up their mind to it.

Also true, a great many are this way, but not all of us are, and even then, in the end, it still does not change the message.. even if 99% were radical fanatic terrorists, the message is one of peace, proving that it's always the people that are the source, and not faith.

If you replaced faith with something else, you bet it would cause the same amount of damage to everything in a similar manner.

The problem actually is not faith, but culture.

Honor killings in turkey, for example have nothing to do with religion..
North Korea is a prime example of this too..
Too many to name, but if you'd like, I'll find them for you..
Religion is just a scapegoat that evil men use to hide behind, and people like Hitchen's are too blinded by hate to see this.

Originally Posted by LiquidTurbo

I think he was referring to atheism as a 'belief system'.

You can pick and choose and argue the semantics all you want. At the end of the day there shouldn't even be a label for atheists. Just like how there are no labels for

Non-astrologers.. (A-astrologers?) or
Non-alchemists?


To call atheism an belief is just..

Now you're just using really vague ways to compare the two.

If you want to compare them like that, it would be :

Religion = Alchemist
Atheism = [insert any other profession here]

And I don't know how you're speechless. You believe it doesn't exist. Whether you like it or not,

If it's not a belief, then it must be a FACT. But you can't prove it, therefore it isn't fact, it's just another belief, it's just that it's the polar opposite of the beliefs that a religion preaches.

It's still a belief nonetheless. Just because it's the opposite of religion doesn't cancel it out as a belief. Unless you already have proof and can prove to me that it's a fact.


And yes, you SHOULD have a label, why are you afraid of labels?
Honestly it seems that you're trying to pass it off as a fact of some sort, when I believe that it's not. (BUT, that's only my belief, yours is that it is, which is fine, but still a belief), sigh..

[SkinnyPupp]

just

[Nightwalker]

Dear theists, suck Christopher Hitchens dick.

Good night.

[The7even]

Originally Posted by unit

its a belief in our understanding of science being absolute.

the true belief in nothing is to be agnostic. its to be humble enough to believe that perhaps we know nothing at all.

Based on what SkinnyPup said, I think he is agnostic. And agnostic is the true belief of Nothing, neither. Doesn't know, doesn't claim to know which way the pendulum swings.

EDIT: I hope this doesn't offend you Skinny, not trying to label you as something you're not. Correct me if I'm wrong about this assumption.

[Nightwalker]

Originally Posted by Alpha v2

for the atheists in here, I'm curious what you think of ghosts?
Posted via RS Mobile

WTF? Why would there need to be a God for ghosts to exist? (not that I'm 100% sure they exist anymore, when I was younger I was.)

[The7even]

Originally Posted by Nightwalker

Dear theists, suck Christopher Hitchens dick.

Good night.

Oh hey there, let me give you a mirror, show you exactly how smart you sound when you say this sort of stuff.

Enjoy

[The7even]

Originally Posted by SkinnyPupp

just

Nice.

Have no counter argument, Post memes.

Brool story, co.

I expected more from you though. Oh well..

[SkinnyPupp]

Originally Posted by The7even

Based on what SkinnyPup said, I think he is agnostic. And agnostic is the true belief of Nothing, neither. Doesn't know, doesn't claim to know which way the pendulum swings.

EDIT: I hope this doesn't offend you Skinny, not trying to label you as something you're not. Correct me if I'm wrong about this assumption.

Not a big fan of labels, but I found out about nihilism a while back, and that tends to be where I sway.

I was ing because you spend I don't know how long picking apart one of my replies, only to agree with just about everything I said, except for you ONCE AGAIN tried to build a STRAW MAN to argue with.

And like I said a million times now, there is nothing to argue about. So far you have written a shit ton of words basically trying to say the same thing over and over again. Straw man arguments and repetition are not ways to win an argument, except maybe in this case because I'm not even arguing against you

[1exotic]

Originally Posted by dee242

trying to figure out why some one would not belive in god...

I believe that god is a monkey.

Why don't you believe that god is a monkey? I don't get it.

[The7even]

Originally Posted by SkinnyPupp

Not a big fan of labels, but I found out about nihilism a while back, and that tends to be where I sway.

I was ing because you spend I don't know how long picking apart one of my replies, only to agree with just about everything I said, except for you ONCE AGAIN tried to build a STRAW MAN to argue with.

And like I said a million times now, there is nothing to argue about. So far you have written a shit ton of words basically trying to say the same thing over and over again. Straw man arguments and repetition are not ways to win an argument, except maybe in this case because I'm not even arguing against you

We're arguing whether or not you were right when you said that religion should be removed eventually.
If you think that religious people do stupid shit and are fucked up, then yes, we agree. But we disagree on what makes them do the fucked up shit in the first place. The truth is PEOPLE do fucked up and stupid shit, because they're people..

The reason I disagreed with your original statement, which implies that we would be better off without it in order to advance, is because it implies that religion is the problem. It's not.

That's all.


And I'll have you know I'm at work, it's 5:11 AM and I have 3 hours to burn before I go home, same with yesterday, so can you blame me for having the time to pick it all apart

[SkinnyPupp]

There are a few things you seem unable (or more likely unwilling) to grasp

1) Nobody is saying that religion is the root of all evil.

2) HOWEVER, it DOES lead to otherwise non evil people doing evil things. It makes people who otherwise wouldn't hate or be intolerant of others, to become hateful and intolerant. Again that doesn't mean EVERY religious person is hateful and intolerant. But there are PLENTY who are, only because they have been taught to be.

3) "Humanity" as a whole is not evil. Maybe the church wants you to think that, so you have to give yourself up to them, but it's simply not the case. Yes there are evil atheists, and there are evil religious folk. But that's it.

I don't think an atheist ever read a physics book and went "holy shit, if I blow up a bus full of people, I'll go to heaven and be able to fuck virgins for an eternity". And I don't think someone read a biology book and went "males mate with females, and anyone who does otherwise is a disgusting excuse for a human, and is breaking the "laws" of nature, so I hate them and want to destroy them"

And so on, et cetera.

The key points being your straw man argument about Turkey and North Korea that made me go then . Yes humans have done some shitty things that weren't in the name of religion. For fucks sake, look at China RIGHT NOW. But again, just like humans can be greedy and evil over money or borders or just to stay in power, there are way WAY to many on EVERY scale that do so just because a book told them to. Or a twisted interpretation of a book. Or whatever.

[LiquidTurbo]

Originally Posted by Alpha v2

for the atheists in here, I'm curious what you think of ghosts?
Posted via RS Mobile

The same as you think of the tooth fairy and leprechauns.