Red Light Camera Ticket Dispute

[InvisibleSoul]

So I think I got flashed by a red light camera a couple nights ago.

It was definitely not your typical running the red light situation.

This was at the intersection of Willingdon and Kingsway. I was southbound on Willingdon, in the left turn lane to go east on Kingsway.

It was an advanced green turn signal, and when it turned yellow as I got near the intersection, I slowed down and intended to wait before turning left.

Problem is there about a two second delay between the advanced turn signal going red and the regular traffic light going green.

It was in these two seconds that I coasted into the intersection to wait to turn left.

Yeah, I know it's dumb, and I should have come to a full stop before the intersection, waited the two seconds for the regular traffic light to go green before pulling up into the intersection to wait to turn left, but I think subconsciously I'm used to the reguar traffic light going green immediately when the turn signal goes red, or sometimes even before it does.

I don't know if the signals are programmed different between Burnaby and Vancouver, but I know in Vancouver, at least SOME intersections has no delay between the turn signal going red and the regular traffic light turning green. If I was at any of those intersections, it wouldn't be possible to get a red light camera ticket. I know for a fact that the intersection of 41st and Cambie is like this.

I know by the book, I violated MVA 129(1).

129 (1) Subject to subsection (2), when a red light alone is exhibited at an intersection by a traffic control signal, the driver of a vehicle approaching the intersection and facing the red light must cause it to stop before entering the marked crosswalk on the near side of the intersection, or if there is no marked crosswalk, before entering the intersection, and subject to the provisions of subsection (3), must not cause the vehicle to proceed until a traffic control signal instructs the driver that he or she is permitted to do so.

But I'm just wondering if there's any leg for me to stand on to appeal this ticket. Again, I didn't "run" a red light, but I understand I technically entered the intersection while the light was red. Surely the intent of the red light cameras isn't for a situation like mine. I'm thinking I would try my luck and see if the judge would take into consideration the fact that my action wasn't a dangerous one.

What do you think?

[Soundy]

I think you might wait and see if you even get a ticket. Someone may look at it, realize you were in the clear, and dismiss it right there.

I've also seen the cameras go off for someone turning right without stopping.

[sebberry]

Originally Posted by Soundy

I think you might wait and see if you even get a ticket. Someone may look at it, realize you were in the clear, and dismiss it right there.

Hopefully the officer reviewing the footage will realize that no crime really took place here.

This is the trouble with inconsistent light timing practices at intersections. Many advanced left turn lights will simply stop flashing green and permit you to enter the intersection, yet some will turn red before going back to green again allowing you to creep forwards.

Then again, this sort of inconsistency is a boon to photo enforcement because drivers expect one thing then get stung.

Originally Posted by Soundy

I've also seen the cameras go off for someone turning right without stopping.

So they should.

[Soundy]

Originally Posted by sebberry

Hopefully the officer reviewing the footage will realize that no crime really took place here.

This is the trouble with inconsistent light timing practices at intersections.

Which I'm sure is a large part of WHY they're human-reviewed.

[sebberry]

Originally Posted by Soundy

Which I'm sure is a large part of WHY they're human-reviewed.

You'd hope so...

Texas: Red Light Camera Tickets a Man Running a Green Light

[wing_woo]

Did it only flash once? If it did then you probably won't get a ticket. It flashes once when you go into the intersection on a red and again when you leave. If you went in on a red but stayed in the intersection, it wouldn't have a second picture showing you leaving (ie. running through the intersection on a red).

[Nlkko]

Originally Posted by Soundy

the cameras go off for someone turning right without stopping.

That is the same as running the red light, isn't it? Going is straight or turning is the same.

These people, which is like 99% of Vancouver drivers, should be ticketed. The same bullshit running the stop sign. Full stop and go, not slow down and go.

[- kT]

my friend got flashed at a red light making a right turn when he came to a full stop as he had to wait for traffic to go by before he could turn right. two flashes but never received a ticket. this happened about a year ago

just wait til you get a ticket first. may not even get one

[jlenko]

Originally Posted by InvisibleSoul

I didn't "run" a red light, but I understand I technically entered the intersection while the light was red.

So you "walked" the red?

At some on-demand intersections, that green arrow goes away shorter than the opposing traffic.. and you have to wait as the cross-traffic already has the green.

[zulutango]

when it turned yellow as I got near the intersection, I slowed down and intended to wait before turning left.


Another thing to remember...it is illegal to enter an intersection on a yellow light as well as a red light. As you slowly approached the advance turn light and it turned yellow, you were not permitted to go any further. You must stop before the intersection and wait for either a green light that will permit you to legally turn left while yielding to oncoming traffic...or wait until you get a fresh green advance turn arow/light. Your problem was not the red light, it was the green that turned yellow. You are only permitted to enter an intersection on a yellow light if it turns yellow when you are at a point past where you cannot stop safely.

[InvisibleSoul]

Originally Posted by wing_woo

Did it only flash once? If it did then you probably won't get a ticket. It flashes once when you go into the intersection on a red and again when you leave. If you went in on a red but stayed in the intersection, it wouldn't have a second picture showing you leaving (ie. running through the intersection on a red).

It did flash twice. I think my rear bumper was just passed the intersection line when I stopped.

Originally Posted by Soundy

I think you might wait and see if you even get a ticket. Someone may look at it, realize you were in the clear, and dismiss it right there.

I'm definitely hoping that I won't see the ticket in the mail.

[InvisibleSoul]

Originally Posted by zulutango

when it turned yellow as I got near the intersection, I slowed down and intended to wait before turning left.


Another thing to remember...it is illegal to enter an intersection on a yellow light as well as a red light. As you slowly approached the advance turn light and it turned yellow, you were not permitted to go any further. You must stop before the intersection and wait for either a green light that will permit you to legally turn left while yielding to oncoming traffic...or wait until you get a fresh green advance turn arow/light. Your problem was not the red light, it was the green that turned yellow. You are only permitted to enter an intersection on a yellow light if it turns yellow when you are at a point past where you cannot stop safely.

If you read my original post, I know all of this. I said:

Yeah, I know it's dumb, and I should have come to a full stop before the intersection, waited the two seconds for the regular traffic light to go green before pulling up into the intersection to wait to turn left, but I think subconsciously I'm used to the regular traffic light going green immediately when the turn signal goes red, or sometimes even before it does.

Here's a question... what if timing on the lights was such that the straight through traffic light turns green before the advanced left turn traffic light goes red? Do you still have to stop before the intersection when the advanced left turn traffic light turns yellow?

[Berzerker]

Keep in mind not all camera boxes actually have camera's in them and often times the flash you see is just the reaction of the system without there having a recording devise. I can't remember how many actual red light camera's they have in operation but it's not as many as you think.

Berz out.

[mqin]

I live around that area, and drive by pretty often. Honestly that happens quite a bit, or atleast I've seen it happen to a lot of people doing the exact same thing you've done. It's even happened to me once about maybe 8-9 months ago and I still haven't received a mail from the traffic violation office... yet?

and even if you do receive a ticket, its just simpler to pay it off in the first 30 days with that discount, because most likely if you dispute it in court they will still make you pay the ticket maybe at a discounted rate? Which will end up to be around the same as if you payed it off within the first 30 days.

this red light camera ticket is not the same as a typical red light ticket if you were pulled over by an officer, it does not give you any point fines, since the camera cannot prove who was operating the vehicle at the time of incident. Thus the ticket will be mailed to whomever the vehicle owner is with the amount fine of $167(I believe...).

[SumAznGuy]

Intersection safety cameras (ISC) *locations subject to change - Google Maps

According to this, there is over 140 red light cameras across BC. Not sure how many of them actually have a recording device but they will all flash.

[zulutango]

Originally Posted by InvisibleSoul

If you read my original post, I know all of this. I said:



Here's a question... what if timing on the lights was such that the straight through traffic light turns green before the advanced left turn traffic light goes red? Do you still have to stop before the intersection when the advanced left turn traffic light turns yellow?

The question really is....what colour was the light before you entered the intersection? If it was green facing you then you can enter the intersection. If it is yellow or red then you are breaking the law if you enter. If it turns yellow and you are so close that you cannot stop safely before entering the intersection then you may proceed if safe. If the advance green turns to yellow before you enter and you are able to safely stop, then you must stop. The fact that it may turn green a few seconds later does not excuse you from obeying the law and stopping. The advance/protected turn means you may turn safely, protected from oncoming straight thru traffic. When it turns yellow it is telling you that this is no longer the situation and now you must stop ( light is yellow) and yield to oncoming traffic if you attempt a left turn across their path.

[InvisibleSoul]

Originally Posted by zulutango

The question really is....what colour was the light before you entered the intersection? If it was green facing you then you can enter the intersection. If it is yellow or red then you are breaking the law if you enter. If it turns yellow and you are so close that you cannot stop safely before entering the intersection then you may proceed if safe. If the advance green turns to yellow before you enter and you are able to safely stop, then you must stop. The fact that it may turn green a few seconds later does not excuse you from obeying the law and stopping. The advance/protected turn means you may turn safely, protected from oncoming straight thru traffic. When it turns yellow it is telling you that this is no longer the situation and now you must stop ( light is yellow) and yield to oncoming traffic if you attempt a left turn across their path.

That is not what I asked you.

I'm asking you what if the the advanced turn signal turns yellow but the straight through light is already green. Do you have to stop before the intersection?

[Nlkko]

^You can't go but you're allowed to enter the intersection and sit there. The green advance turn signal only indicate your right of way.

[exhil]

Originally Posted by - kT

my friend got flashed at a red light making a right turn when he came to a full stop as he had to wait for traffic to go by before he could turn right. two flashes but never received a ticket. this happened about a year ago

just wait til you get a ticket first. may not even get one

yeah, i've ran through stop light by accident once or twice and got flashed. it was about 6 months ago or longer. i still havent receive any tickets yet. *knock on wood*
you might as well just wait for the mail then go from there.

[zulutango]

Originally Posted by InvisibleSoul

That is not what I asked you.

I'm asking you what if the the advanced turn signal turns yellow but the straight through light is already green. Do you have to stop before the intersection?

And I answered you that you must stop for a yellow light if you can stop safely. If the GREEN advance turn light turns YELLOW you must NOT continue into the intersection...because you no longer have a GREEN LIGHT. If the yellow light disappears and is replaced by a green straight through light before you reach the intersection then you do not have to stop. Hope that clarifies things?

[ninjatune]

Zulutango... still serving RS at 2355 hrs! a diehard!

[zulutango]

It was either that or face New year's Eve!

[Oleophobic]

Originally Posted by InvisibleSoul

That is not what I asked you.

I'm asking you what if the the advanced turn signal turns yellow but the straight through light is already green. Do you have to stop before the intersection?

This is how I see it. I'm not sure if it's correct in the eyes of the law but if the light is red and the arrow is yellow I would slow down and wait behind the line. If the light turns green while the arrow is yellow, I would slow down but enter the intersection and wait.

This makes perfect sense to me.
I've seen assholes try to beat the advance signal by turning even after the arrow has disappeared (but the light is still red --in other words, oncoming traffic still has the left turn + thru traffic is green for them)
Hope these jackasses get tickets for doing this.

[InvisibleSoul]

Originally Posted by zulutango

If the yellow light disappears and is replaced by a green straight through light before you reach the intersection then you do not have to stop. Hope that clarifies things?

That is the specific answer I was looking for.

[InvisibleSoul]

So how soon would you expect to receive the ticket in the mail after the incident?

I haven't gotten anything so far, and it's been almost a month...