Advice on problem-prone vehicle

[dton13]

Ya, ya I know its another advice thread but I'm not trying to deface any brand or dealership here. Just looking for a little advice for my parents. Any help is appreciated.

Parents bought a brand new 2010 X5 35d which has exhibited numerous problems since they've got it (listed below) but the last few visits have really been the last straw in terms of patience we've exhibited to this company/dealer.

The car has had sunroof problems over the past few months. Each time it wouldn't close and would require a re-calibration (takes a few minutes of holding the button). A minor incovenience which after a few times we decided to bring it in and they agreed to have a look at it.

After a week and a bit we get a call that the cars fixed, we'll be able to pick it up the following work day. Sounds good, but turns out they weren't done so they needed a few more days. No problem. But when we did pick it up, that same evening it got stuck and wouldn't close again. Irritated but patient we bring it back the next day. While the tech's having a look at it he decides to re-calibrate it and in doing so the whole sunroof seal falls into the car while its closing.

Probably not normal, so they take it in again. 3-4 days later we get a call telling us its ready. We pick it up from them and the very first time we try to open it, guess what. Stuck open again.

So we just spent the last 3 weeks driving back and forth to BMW which is adding up to be a HUGE waste of time for my parents. This adds to the long list of problems we've had with this car varying from small and annoying to large and hugely inconveniencing.

• Rear window motor needing to be replaced after it wouldn't close.
• Annoying glovebox rattle (Went in the shop about 3-4 for this alone and it's still not fixed after a complete replacement and BMW Canada getting involved).
• Mysterious check engine light resulting in limp mode and had to be towed to the shop but the dealership found "nothing".
• Occasional engine stalls (this could be due to bad diesel here, not sure)
• Probably a couple more which I don't have the details on.

The car has honestly been in the shop over the past year too many times to count and for a car less than 2 years old it's a little concerning. Right now BMW covers everything but how about later? And each time its in, the paperwork and transportation involved justs adds up.

Now I want to know what we're supposed to do here. I know some cars tend to have more problems than other cars, but whats the threshold here? We've never had a car with this many problems before (mind you we've never owned a BMW before). When does it become too much and to what degree do the problems need to be?

Thanks RS

tl;dr: car with problems, advice please

[z3german]

My VW passat has been in the shop many many times for bullshit reasons that have taken way too long to fix. The warranty damage covered already has overtaken the cost of what i paid for the car. All i can say is that you have to be persistent with it and express how upset you are with the brand and how you have to come to the dealership way more than necessary. For me i told them to keep my car for longer than necessary, because i want it FIXED. Its frustrating as hell...

Originally Posted by dton13

Mysterious check engine light resulting in limp mode and had to be towed to the shop but the dealership found "nothing".

For the check engine light ive had TONS of those until i demanded they replace the entire unit with the problem rather than the part that had the supposed problem (so far so good!). I would say to them "the engine light keeps coming on but you keep saying its nothing? If it turns on then theres a problem! When it turns on i question my safety, maybe the whole car is broken!" get your mom to say it to them, hopefully she can scare them. But if they really dont do it for you try getting your hands on a OBD (you can find them 50 bucks i think) and when you plug it in you can check on your phone what the fault code is where you can search that online to see if its something worth worrying about in the first place. If its not a big deal then you can just remotely turn off the code through the app.

[wstce92]

My parent's old 5 had a sunroof problem, the dealership we bought it from just kept "fixing" it like in your scenario. One day my dad finally got fed up and took it to another dealership where they replaced it. With your other issues, to best of my experience:

"Annoying glovebox rattle (Went in the shop about 3-4 for this alone and it's still not fixed after a complete replacement and BMW Canada getting involved)."
- I got that too, there's really nothing that the dealership will or can do, I taped some felt up in there and all is good

"Mysterious check engine light resulting in limp mode and had to be towed to the shop but the dealership found "nothing".
- This is probably a charge-pipe issue, had it happen on our X6 and both our 3's, once again, original dealership, we'd bring it in, they'd do something but never tell us what, just "don't worry about it". New dealership told me what it was, and it's a super simply fix, just re-tighten yourself

edit: just to add, with original dealership, we KEPT getting engine limp mode. New dealership fixed it once and it's never happened again. I did it myself and it's never happened again.

[dton13]

Originally Posted by z3german

My VW passat has been in the shop many many times for bullshit reasons that have taken way too long to fix. The warranty damage covered already has overtaken the cost of what i paid for the car. All i can say is that you have to be persistent with it and express how upset you are with the brand and how you have to come to the dealership way more than necessary. For me i told them to keep my car for longer than necessary, because i want it FIXED. Its frustrating as hell...



For the check engine light ive had TONS of those until i demanded they replace the entire unit with the problem rather than the part that had the supposed problem (so far so good!). I would say to them "the engine light keeps coming on but you keep saying its nothing? If it turns on then theres a problem! When it turns on i question my safety, maybe the whole car is broken!" get your mom to say it to them, hopefully she can scare them. But if they really dont do it for you try getting your hands on a OBD (you can find them 50 bucks i think) and when you plug it in you can check on your phone what the fault code is where you can search that online to see if its something worth worrying about in the first place. If its not a big deal then you can just remotely turn off the code through the app.

Thanks! AFAIK they've been pretty persistant but now they're just getting tired of dealing with them. I haven't dealt with the dealership personally but I know my parents aren't ones to accept sub-par products so they've probably given them an earful.

That being said theres only so much that can be done, ultimately its still the consumer here that has to suffer the consequences of that. Its unfortunate that it is this way and I was just looking to see if we're being too sensitive and picky or if theres any other options here.

[z3german]

Originally Posted by dton13

Thanks! AFAIK they've been pretty persistant but now they're just getting tired of dealing with them. I haven't dealt with the dealership personally but I know my parents aren't ones to accept sub-par products so they've probably given them an earful.

That being said theres only so much that can be done, ultimately its still the consumer here that has to suffer the consequences of that. Its unfortunate that it is this way and I was just looking to see if we're being too sensitive and picky or if theres any other options here.

My next car im going to japanese

Cheap to repair... hopefully.

[roastpuff]

I was going to say lemon-law it but it seems that it's too late now...

Just be persistent, and try a different dealer I guess.

[GabAlmighty]

Buy something that was built more than 15 years ago and enjoy a properly built machine

[optiblue]

I hope your X5 is leased!

[godwin]

1. Sign up at XOutpost and see if your problems are replicated among the X5 owners of the same year. A lot of long term remedies / prevention could be found on that board, be patient and go through it. E70 is on its final years, so there are a lot of solutions for any problem areas.
2. Go through the receipts and make sure your parents are going through the same Service Advisor every time and they are not cycling through different one.
3. If issue continues, write letters and talk to Service Manager and document what has happened / had been done etc.

I have a problematic e36 which I had since new (93), over the years BMW has been nice to be me, ie good willed 1. head fix, valve fixes.. and the last time split half even the car is 8 years old. I wrote to BMW Canada, they offered quite a large credit on my next car.

I find clear and precise communication helps and you don't have to say "safety" "lawyer" etc keywords. If problems don't pop up, you know what, if you can afford it, have a second car (sometimes they don't have loaners) and leave the car at the dealership for them to retest. Give them the flexibility and the time to diagnose the problem.

I know you are trying to be helpful to your parents, but I suggest if your parents are dealing with the dealer not you personally. You either take over.. or just let them be sort itself out. There can be so much misinformation with you posting on the board and back and forth, it is just not worth it.

[1990TSI]

buy japanese or korean?

[F30]

Back on '04 I leased an MDX and had a ton of problems just like your parents. I kept the car for 1.5 years and then returned it (paid the difference) and never ever thought of getting another Acura since. All I'm saying is that Japanese cars aren't necessarily free of fault either.

I've owned 2 more cars from new since, 1 nissan and 1 mercedes. Neither had as many issues as that MDX. And just a week ago I bought a BMW...

My suggestion is to get rid of the car if it is a major headache.

[no_clue]

there is no such thing as a lemon-law in Canada that is comparable to the USA, no manufacturer will ever buy back your car here.

[taylor192]

Originally Posted by no_clue

there is no such thing as a lemon-law in Canada that is comparable to the USA, no manufacturer will ever buy back your car here.

x2

Read this: http://www.camvap.ca/flyers/CAMVAP_Flyer_English.pdf

Essentially as long as the dealer keeps trying there's little you can do. I would do as suggested above, lookup the issues on an X5 forum. I had to do this for a couple issues with my C230, brought printouts to the dealer and they fixed it.

Most dealers don't surf the forums, so they are completely unaware of some problems until they accidentally discover a fix, or until a TSB comes in.

[dton13]

Originally Posted by roastpuff

I was going to say lemon-law it but it seems that it's too late now...

Just be persistent, and try a different dealer I guess.

Originally Posted by no_clue

there is no such thing as a lemon-law in Canada that is comparable to the USA, no manufacturer will ever buy back your car here.

You're right there is no "lemon law" in Canada but there is a Canadian Motor Vehicle Arbitration Plan (CAMVAP) which is similar and sort of a compromise. However, get this, BMW is the only manufacturer that isn't part of the act as its voluntary I guess.

Edit: Taylor beat me, but still BMW and MINI for that matter does not participate in that plan

Originally Posted by godwin

1. Sign up at XOutpost and see if your problems are replicated among the X5 owners of the same year. A lot of long term remedies / prevention could be found on that board, be patient and go through it. E70 is on its final years, so there are a lot of solutions for any problem areas.
2. Go through the receipts and make sure your parents are going through the same Service Advisor every time and they are not cycling through different one.
3. If issue continues, write letters and talk to Service Manager and document what has happened / had been done etc.

I have a problematic e36 which I had since new (93), over the years BMW has been nice to be me, ie good willed 1. head fix, valve fixes.. and the last time split half even the car is 8 years old. I wrote to BMW Canada, they offered quite a large credit on my next car.

I find clear and precise communication helps and you don't have to say "safety" "lawyer" etc keywords. If problems don't pop up, you know what, if you can afford it, have a second car (sometimes they don't have loaners) and leave the car at the dealership for them to retest. Give them the flexibility and the time to diagnose the problem.

I know you are trying to be helpful to your parents, but I suggest if your parents are dealing with the dealer not you personally. You either take over.. or just let them be sort itself out. There can be so much misinformation with you posting on the board and back and forth, it is just not worth it.

Thanks for the advice. Duly noted. We do in fact leave the car there for extended periods. We have a spare van so we don't even get a loaner any more as its just a time consuming process.

[toyota86]

As someone who has 3 German cars at home, I know exactly what you are going through op. The one with warranty is always going to the dealer for "something". Its going in tomorrow for 4k worth of parts in warranty. The older ones are always sitting in my garage with their hoods open. Essentially, we have 2 cars with 1 always needing some sort of attention. If you don't plan on fixing it yourself and don't have sources to cheap parts, get rid of the car asap before warranty runs out. Let the next owner deal with it. If you or anyone you know decides they want to go euro, make sure its always a lease. We learned the hard way by buying out the damn thing new. Will never finance/buy again.

[dton13]

Originally Posted by optiblue

I hope your X5 is leased!

It isn't leased unfortunately

Originally Posted by toyota86

As someone who has 3 German cars at home, I know exactly what you are going through op. The one with warranty is always going to the dealer for "something". Its going in tomorrow for 4k worth of parts in warranty. The older ones are always sitting in my garage with their hoods open. Essentially, we have 2 cars with 1 always needing some sort of attention. If you don't plan on fixing it yourself and don't have sources to cheap parts, get rid of the car asap before warranty runs out. Let the next owner deal with it. If you or anyone you know decides they want to go euro, make sure its always a lease. We learned the hard way by buying out the damn thing new. Will never finance/buy again.

I hear you, maybe we've been lucky but we've had two long term mb's with very little issues. We got them both new to about 6-7 years old and they both never saw anything like this or even close. We are definitely looking into something else now, which is unfortunate because after a long deliberation we felt the diesel X5 was such a great fit for us.


I really appreciate all the responses so far, its been a great help.

[Dinan3]

Hi dton13,

I work for BJBMW at Customer Relations. On Saturday my Service Manager briefly mentioned to me about a client bringing their car back for a sunroof repeat concern. Let me know if this is your car and I will look into it when I get back to the office tomorrow. Thank you.

Tim

[crazie_gsr]

I am do glad I stumbled across this thread.

I recently bought a certified preowned 08 x5 4.8i from a local BMW dealership and while my problems have not been quite as bad as yours, I am definitely a bit leery about the vehicle. When I was in the final deciding stages of purchasing the vehicle, the salesman and the preowned manager kept telling me that this car is very good value and a great vehicle, it will last you a long time. It still has the remainder of it's factory warranty until July of this year and then the certified warranty will cover me for the next couple of years. I have not even had the car for 25 days yet and here is a listed of my issues:
Sunroof rubber, passenger side (inside gator is hanging by a thread, literally)
iPod (resumes from the beginning, in the middle of a song, at the beginning of last song when car turns off, mind of it's own. Terribly inconsistent)
Passenger chair motor (vertical movement, it grinds)
Driver Door clunk (solenoid/motor/or actuator fell off in the door and rattles)
Squeaking panels (discussed before purchasing, unaddressed)
Rear driver side seat make a weird loud spring noise when seat reclined and passenger seated
Pass through missing plastic cover and ski bag (BMW claims since the previous owner didn't return it, I lose out)
Indentation on rear bumper (was a conditioned discuss prior to purchase that bumper be replaced or indents removed. Now they claim there was no such discussion)
Scuff on interior trunk panel (used vehicle, I will suck it up)
Creaking driver seat (another discussed issue prior to vehicle delivery, unaddressed)
Heads up display creaks (another unaddressed but discussed)
Trunk is not very responsive all the time (remote trunk release is finicky)
Indash creaks (discussed, unaddressed)
Caution triangle. First aid kit (claim it didn't come with the 08s but clearly indicated on owners manual)
Condensation all lights (discussed and front were addressed but not the rears)
Wiper blades shot after 1 week of ownership (replaced for free but had to argue to get them)

I feel like I have been so poorly treated by this dealership. Spent one month shopping for a vehicle and was in this dealership multiple times. Salesmen don't even greet you or ask if you need a hand. I had to approach them (3 difference sales associates) before taken seriously. I told them specifically what I was looking for, never got a call back. Kept searching online daily, finally found what I wanted. Found out it had been on the lot for 2 weeks prior and no one contacted me. Again, I did the approach and basically paid them to take the car. That's it. No customer service. No movement on the price at all. Tried to get floor mats thrown in, couldn't do it because "they were too expensive".

I couldn't stand it anymore after the thing in the door fell off so I went back to complain. Spoke to the customer service relations guy and he said "you went to the right guy!" I listed all my problems which he was inputting in the computer but I guess forgot to save because when I dropped off the car yesterday for service, I had to run them through everything all over again. Piss me the fuck off! What sent my blood pressure through the roof was, after purchasing the vehicle, they sent me a survey on my car buying experience and I gave them ratings for what they deserved. The customer relations associate said "next time if you are that unhappy with our service, please come and talk to us about it first before you fill out the survey because we took quite a hit for responses like this!" I told him these surveys are for feedback purposes, not a means to resesitate what they had fail to do originally.

I apologize to you all for the long read, but it IS an FYI. My car is being serviced for everything now, we will see how well they do...not counting on a miracle..
Posted via RS Mobile

[Dinan3]

Originally Posted by crazie_gsr

I am do glad I stumbled across this thread.

I recently bought a certified preowned 08 x5 4.8i from a local BMW dealership and while my problems have not been quite as bad as yours, I am definitely a bit leery about the vehicle. When I was in the final deciding stages of purchasing the vehicle, the salesman and the preowned manager kept telling me that this car is very good value and a great vehicle, it will last you a long time. It still has the remainder of it's factory warranty until July of this year and then the certified warranty will cover me for the next couple of years. I have not even had the car for 25 days yet and here is a listed of my issues:
Sunroof rubber, passenger side (inside gator is hanging by a thread, literally)
iPod (resumes from the beginning, in the middle of a song, at the beginning of last song when car turns off, mind of it's own. Terribly inconsistent)
Passenger chair motor (vertical movement, it grinds)
Driver Door clunk (solenoid/motor/or actuator fell off in the door and rattles)
Squeaking panels (discussed before purchasing, unaddressed)
Rear driver side seat make a weird loud spring noise when seat reclined and passenger seated
Pass through missing plastic cover and ski bag (BMW claims since the previous owner didn't return it, I lose out)
Indentation on rear bumper (was a conditioned discuss prior to purchase that bumper be replaced or indents removed. Now they claim there was no such discussion)
Scuff on interior trunk panel (used vehicle, I will suck it up)
Creaking driver seat (another discussed issue prior to vehicle delivery, unaddressed)
Heads up display creaks (another unaddressed but discussed)
Trunk is not very responsive all the time (remote trunk release is finicky)
Indash creaks (discussed, unaddressed)
Caution triangle. First aid kit (claim it didn't come with the 08s but clearly indicated on owners manual)
Condensation all lights (discussed and front were addressed but not the rears)
Wiper blades shot after 1 week of ownership (replaced for free but had to argue to get them)

I feel like I have been so poorly treated by this dealership. Spent one month shopping for a vehicle and was in this dealership multiple times. Salesmen don't even greet you or ask if you need a hand. I had to approach them (3 difference sales associates) before taken seriously. I told them specifically what I was looking for, never got a call back. Kept searching online daily, finally found what I wanted. Found out it had been on the lot for 2 weeks prior and no one contacted me. Again, I did the approach and basically paid them to take the car. That's it. No customer service. No movement on the price at all. Tried to get floor mats thrown in, couldn't do it because "they were too expensive".

I couldn't stand it anymore after the thing in the door fell off so I went back to complain. Spoke to the customer service relations guy and he said "you went to the right guy!" I listed all my problems which he was inputting in the computer but I guess forgot to save because when I dropped off the car yesterday for service, I had to run them through everything all over again. Piss me the fuck off! What sent my blood pressure through the roof was, after purchasing the vehicle, they sent me a survey on my car buying experience and I gave them ratings for what they deserved. The customer relations associate said "next time if you are that unhappy with our service, please come and talk to us about it first before you fill out the survey because we took quite a hit for responses like this!" I told him these surveys are for feedback purposes, not a means to resesitate what they had fail to do originally.

I apologize to you all for the long read, but it IS an FYI. My car is being serviced for everything now, we will see how well they do...not counting on a miracle..
Posted via RS Mobile

Hi crazie_gsr,

Thanks for your feedback and I'm sorry to hear about your purchase experience. I do remember receiving the survey and going through your comments noted. We have since spoke with your Sales Consultant and I know one of my colleagues from Customer Relations had spoken with you. We are aware of your appointment for yesterday and I too have a note for myself to help monitor this repair visit.

We will review each of your listed concerns above before you get your car back. If you have more questions or concerns that I can help you with, you can PM me and with you permission I will contact you tomorrow. Thanks again.

Tim

[crazie_gsr]

I would like to inform everyone that Tim has done his part well and exceeded my expectations. He helped me get 95% of the items resolved on my vehicle especially the big ticket items. If any of you are having an uneventful experience, I highly recommend you speak to Tim (dinan3) as he will truly do his part in achieving a just and compromisable means.

Someone had mentioned that Tim got the employee of the year award for 2011, and I can see why.

Thanks Tim!
Posted via RS Mobile

[falcon]

It really sounds like you need to try another dealer. Being that the car is under warranty and warranty jobs are usually cake for a dealer I don't see it being an issue getting it serviced elsewhere.

[crazie_gsr]

The warranty items were not the major issues at hand, though one individual did make it seem like they were going out of their way by covering warranty items. I called him on it and he just kept quiet.
Posted via RS Mobile

[highres604]

always get these "will be addressed" things in writing. Dealerships only care about the sale. Everything in writing or prepare to be raped.

also those surveys actually do mean something. If you give a negative, it doesn't look good for them as i think corporate sees it.

[crazie_gsr]

^lesson learnt
Posted via RS Mobile

[jackmeister]

Originally Posted by highres604

always get these "will be addressed" things in writing. Dealerships only care about the sale. Everything in writing or prepare to be raped.

also those surveys actually do mean something. If you give a negative, it doesn't look good for them as i think corporate sees it.

They actually know which customer and the exact reviews. One time I saw the salesperson and he commented that he saw my review and everything was excellent. (it was)

Now I feel obligated to give them perfect ratings or else they'll pee in my gas tank when I'm in for service