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Vancouver Off-Topic / Current EventsThe off-topic forum for Vancouver, funnies, non-auto centered discussions, WORK SAFE. While the rules are more relaxed here, there are still rules. Please refer to sticky thread in this forum.
Conservative MP's are going to consider starting a special committee to consider when human life begins, with the intent of opening the possibility of re-criminalizing abortion in Canada even though in the past Harper has pledged not to raise the abortion issue.
Quote:
When he announced the motion, Woodworth had argued he was simply interested in updating the law to agree with 21st-century medicine. But speaking to Radio-Canada on Monday, he admitted his motion is linked to abortion.
"It certainly allows us to have an honest discussion about the abortion question. How can we honestly discuss all of the complicated issues around abortion if we cannot decide whether or not a child is a human being before the moment of the complete birth?" Woodworth said.
Sonick is a genius. I won't go into detail what's so great about his post. But it's damn good!
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Religion and religious beliefs have no place in government, nor should it have an impact on how laws are created.
If this committee actually gets created, then those idiots in government had better not push to have abortion redeclared illegal. I don't care if you think it's right or wrong based on your religious beliefs.
I firmly believe a woman should have every right to choose whether abortion is right or wrong for them. I totally understand it if someone who has religious POV/moral codes against it but I don't think this is something that can have a YES or NO answer.
For example, rape victims. Many women choose not to have their rapists baby, which is completely understandable. Telling a woman they are wrong to "kill" someone when they were viciously attacked is just.......ARE YOU SERIOUS?!
__________________ tiptronic: getting cut off by bicycles since 2007
Ugh...I hate this topic! Mostly because it turns into an issue of religion and NOT a freedom of choice issue.
The shit-show that just happened in the US regarding point of conception and what constitutes a "life" was like watching a competition of stupidity and I DO NOT want that to happen here.
Though I am not a proponent of women (and men) using abortion as a form a birth control, and am most certainly pro-choice.
Do I think there is a happy medium? No. Give women a choice or don't. Even though I hear about women using it as a form of birth control, I'd much rather have the choice to prevent children being born out of rape, incest, etc.
So, essentially, some old men want to decide what a woman can do to her body.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lomac
Religion and religious beliefs have no place in government, nor should it have an impact on how laws are created.
If this committee actually gets created, then those idiots in government had better not push to have abortion redeclared illegal. I don't care if you think it's right or wrong based on your religious beliefs.
I firmly believe a woman should have every right to choose whether abortion is right or wrong for them. I totally understand it if someone who has religious POV/moral codes against it but I don't think this is something that can have a YES or NO answer.
For example, rape victims. Many women choose not to have their rapists baby, which is completely understandable. Telling a woman they are wrong to "kill" someone when they were viciously attacked is just.......ARE YOU SERIOUS?!
Not to mention, think of the CHILDREN!
Most people argue that women shouldn't be able to choose cause they're choosing for a life that's not theirs. Well, if not caring about women is your thing, what about children?
If I'm a woman who doesn't want a child, chances are, if I can't abort, I'm not going to do a very good job of raising it.
If I'm raped and I have the child, what if the child reminds me of my ordeal everyday? That will probably translate into my relationship with my child.
If I just ditch my child after I have it. Sure lots of kids who are adopted end up with great, well-off parents; but what about the ones that don't?
I'm not saying the kid's life will be shit. But I'd bet my balls their chances of a shitty childhood are greater than a kid who's parents wanted to have them.
Who are we to gamble on someone's life like that; knowing that the odds are stacked against them.
Agreed. That's what brought me on board. This could be what takes me back out.
While voting for the most economically conservative party is great, it's hardly surprising that Harper would attempt something like banning abortion with a majority government, and if he's successful in pushing his religious agenda through, it will do more damage to our country than any spending decisions ever could. Harper isn't even that economically conservative compared to liberals anyway..
While voting for the most economically conservative party is great, it's hardly surprising that Harper would attempt something like banning abortion with a majority government, and if he's successful in pushing his religious agenda through, it will do more damage to our country than any spending decisions ever could. Harper isn't even that economically conservative compared to liberals anyway..
I've always been a huge liberal supporter...provincially and federally.
Ever since the end of Martin, they've been in the shitter. They were in power for too long and got sloppy. Now, they can't connect with voters.
I agree with you...I think the liberals struck a great balance of investment, low taxes, debt re-payment and a decent social net.
Then they started calling for a universal child care system.
Fuck that!
Yeah, I know...won't somebody think of the kids.
I don't want yet another entitlement program on the books that we can't pay for.
In fact, the rest of their platform was a bunch of little things from the tree huggers at Jack's feet, and a knock against the Conservatives. I know you kids wanna be in the middle, but can you do a little independent thought?
I honestly don't know where I land on the abortion subject. For me, you either have it or you don't. I certainly don't want the american style "you can begrudgingly have abortion, but we are going to make you listen to the heart beat, and watch a video on the procedure for 'informative' purposes" and all that other shit they come up with to make abortion the most painful experience possible.
BUT...I start seeing some of the excuses above and it makes me sick to my stomach. Like, have some responsibility people! Some chicks treat abortion clinics like fucking drive-throughs-"I'll take a whopper, a large fry and just suck this baby out for me and we'll be all good!"
"If I'm a woman who doesn't want a child, chances are, if I can't abort, I'm not going to do a very good job of raising it."
So, its better off dead.
If I'm raped and I have the child, what if the child reminds me of my ordeal everyday? That will probably translate into my relationship with my child.
So, its better off dead.
If I just ditch my child after I have it. Sure lots of kids who are adopted end up with great, well-off parents; but what about the ones that don't?
Well, they are probably better off dead.
I'm not saying the kid's life will be shit. But I'd bet my balls their chances of a shitty childhood are greater than a kid who's parents wanted to have them."
You know whats better than a shitty childhood? Death by vacuum.
Maybe we need to be open to re-examining the issue. If its good, and the people support it, then it won't change. If the population is ready for change, then this might be the chance.
We all know what he wants to do, its a matter of what he will do that counts.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miss_crayon
Telling a woman they are wrong to "kill" someone when they were viciously attacked is just.......ARE YOU SERIOUS?!
i get what you're saying i just had to quote that particularly cuz it looks so WTF lol
also i dont think its ever been illegal for a woman who was raped to have an abortion in Canada or the US or even Europe
back ot
Canada is the only country in the world where Abortion isn't regulated; so Abortion is not Legal or Illegal in Canada there is simply no law stating such (Morgentaler case simply decriminalized it)
so a woman could get an abortion up until the point the baby comes out if she could find someone to perform the abortion at such a late term (having an abortion @ 8months and 29 days if you will)
or women can even be stuck finding no1 to provide them abortion throughout their pregnancy; again there is simply no law stating rights or otherwise
its also why doctors can refuse giving abortions forcing women to find abortion clinics, which don't exist everywhere, like up in the Territories leaving women with NO choices.
After the Morgentaler (1988) case Canada hasn't had any law regarding Abortion and that's what the issue here is really its not about religion (it might be for some involved who knows?)
I've always been a huge liberal supporter...provincially and federally.
Ever since the end of Martin, they've been in the shitter. They were in power for too long and got sloppy. Now, they can't connect with voters.
I agree with you...I think the liberals struck a great balance of investment, low taxes, debt re-payment and a decent social net.
Then they started calling for a universal child care system.
Fuck that!
Yeah, I know...won't somebody think of the kids.
I don't want yet another entitlement program on the books that we can't pay for.
In fact, the rest of their platform was a bunch of little things from the tree huggers at Jack's feet, and a knock against the Conservatives. I know you kids wanna be in the middle, but can you do a little independent thought?
I honestly don't know where I land on the abortion subject. For me, you either have it or you don't. I certainly don't want the american style "you can begrudgingly have abortion, but we are going to make you listen to the heart beat, and watch a video on the procedure for 'informative' purposes" and all that other shit they come up with to make abortion the most painful experience possible.
BUT...I start seeing some of the excuses above and it makes me sick to my stomach. Like, have some responsibility people! Some chicks treat abortion clinics like fucking drive-throughs-"I'll take a whopper, a large fry and just suck this baby out for me and we'll be all good!"
"If I'm a woman who doesn't want a child, chances are, if I can't abort, I'm not going to do a very good job of raising it."
So, its better off dead.
If I'm raped and I have the child, what if the child reminds me of my ordeal everyday? That will probably translate into my relationship with my child.
So, its better off dead.
If I just ditch my child after I have it. Sure lots of kids who are adopted end up with great, well-off parents; but what about the ones that don't?
Well, they are probably better off dead.
I'm not saying the kid's life will be shit. But I'd bet my balls their chances of a shitty childhood are greater than a kid who's parents wanted to have them."
You know whats better than a shitty childhood? Death by vacuum.
Maybe we need to be open to re-examining the issue. If its good, and the people support it, then it won't change. If the population is ready for change, then this might be the chance.
We all know what he wants to do, its a matter of what he will do that counts.
I agree with everything you've stated.
Since the passing of the era of Cretian and Martin, the Liberal party has been lost and flailing. Leader after leader, none of them are able to connect with voters or give the party a clear direction.
I even agree with you on an opposition to a universal child care program, shocking I know, a social program I don't support! If people make the clear minded choice to produce offspring, then they should consider the financial implications of that decision and be prepared for it. I'd like to see Canadians adopt an approach to raising small families with no more than two children, the world population is out of control and state of humanity declining, rather than having five children have two and raise them exceptionally well.
Back on topic though, abortion.
I once held a passionate view that there were women who treated abortion too passively, as if there were no repercussions for the decisions that lead to them allowing themselves to become pregnant, because a brief, albeit uncomfortable trip to the abortion clinic could easily solve the "problem." I presented that opinion to a feminist friends years ago though and she tore me apart. Since then, I've realized how small the percentage of women who actually view an abortion so calmly and callously actually is. Ultimately, abortion is a very emotional and difficult decision for the woman and possible man involved. If a person finds themselves in the circumstances where they believe it is necessary, I don't believe that government should be allowed to impose a law to prevent it.
Last edited by MindBomber; 04-26-2012 at 12:49 AM.
Quick disclaimer before I start: I'm a man, and I can never and will never get pregnant; therefor to be quite frank my opinion matters not even one tiny sliver of a fuck unless the potenti-child being discussed happens to come partially from my loins.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gridlock
BUT...I start seeing some of the excuses above and it makes me sick to my stomach. Like, have some responsibility people! Some chicks treat abortion clinics like fucking drive-throughs-"I'll take a whopper, a large fry and just suck this baby out for me and we'll be all good!"
"If I'm a woman who doesn't want a child, chances are, if I can't abort, I'm not going to do a very good job of raising it."
So, its better off dead.
If I'm raped and I have the child, what if the child reminds me of my ordeal everyday? That will probably translate into my relationship with my child.
So, its better off dead.
If I just ditch my child after I have it. Sure lots of kids who are adopted end up with great, well-off parents; but what about the ones that don't?
Well, they are probably better off dead.
I'm not saying the kid's life will be shit. But I'd bet my balls their chances of a shitty childhood are greater than a kid who's parents wanted to have them."
You know whats better than a shitty childhood? Death by vacuum.
Maybe we need to be open to re-examining the issue. If its good, and the people support it, then it won't change. If the population is ready for change, then this might be the chance.
We all know what he wants to do, its a matter of what he will do that counts.
"Better off dead" implies infanticide. We can't convict people's bodies for miscarriages, so why would we cast blame on an abortion? Better to say "Better never alive." Sure, we're splitting hairs, but isn't that what everyone does in situations where the whole damned spectrum is grey?
I feel somewhat anxious when people say that abortions are treated as a form of birth control. Anecdotally, we all know this is true. But while I was at BCIT I did a marketing project on a counselling clinic that offered abortion services. Long story short, I was busy and the other people on my team (girls) decided they would choose it. Talk about heavy stuff.
So it turns out that getting an abortion is a very long and complicated process. If you go there, they won't even discuss abortion until they've talked with you about your situation. And by YOU, I mean YOU. Anyone who's there with you for support gets taken to a separate waiting room, so that they can't place undue influence on you. They tell you about all of the options you have: adoption, parental support, and finally, abortion. You're then booked in with another appointment, at which point you can make further inquiries, or decide to have an abortion. Again, they book another appointment several weeks later and suggest alternatives.
Now, undoubtedly, there are some places that offer abortions more easily. But let's be honest--hitting a doctor and getting the pill is a LOT more convenient as a method of birth control. And the potential benefits to those who are in dire straits (be it for emotional, familial, or financial reasons) seem to outweigh the...dark grey areas.
Now, all that having been said, I feel that as a man I have no fucking say whatsoever that happens within a woman, unless I was involved in putting it there. We want to discuss abortion? We need to have a majority of the participants being women. Which is...not going to happen for a long long long time.
Quick disclaimer before I start: I'm a man, and I can never and will never get pregnant; therefor to be quite frank my opinion matters not even one tiny sliver of a fuck unless the potenti-child being discussed happens to come partially from my loins.
"Better off dead" implies infanticide. We can't convict people's bodies for miscarriages, so why would we cast blame on an abortion? Better to say "Better never alive." Sure, we're splitting hairs, but isn't that what everyone does in situations where the whole damned spectrum is grey?
I feel somewhat anxious when people say that abortions are treated as a form of birth control. Anecdotally, we all know this is true. But while I was at BCIT I did a marketing project on a counselling clinic that offered abortion services. Long story short, I was busy and the other people on my team (girls) decided they would choose it. Talk about heavy stuff.
So it turns out that getting an abortion is a very long and complicated process. If you go there, they won't even discuss abortion until they've talked with you about your situation. And by YOU, I mean YOU. Anyone who's there with you for support gets taken to a separate waiting room, so that they can't place undue influence on you. They tell you about all of the options you have: adoption, parental support, and finally, abortion. You're then booked in with another appointment, at which point you can make further inquiries, or decide to have an abortion. Again, they book another appointment several weeks later and suggest alternatives.
Now, undoubtedly, there are some places that offer abortions more easily. But let's be honest--hitting a doctor and getting the pill is a LOT more convenient as a method of birth control. And the potential benefits to those who are in dire straits (be it for emotional, familial, or financial reasons) seem to outweigh the...dark grey areas.
Now, all that having been said, I feel that as a man I have no fucking say whatsoever that happens within a woman, unless I was involved in putting it there. We want to discuss abortion? We need to have a majority of the participants being women. Which is...not going to happen for a long long long time.
Yeah, I'm with you.
I'm a dude, and I haven't gotten a girl pregnant, so therefore, I've never been there and had to face the choice.
I guess, I don't know. I'm a small government guy, and unlike most conservative minded folk, actually believe that small government means small, not just excluding the things that you don't like-that's 'selective government' in my books.
So I don't like the idea at all of the government telling us what we can do and what we can't when we're faced with an unplanned pregnancy in a million different scenarios.
And yeah, I said we. I don't like this "its women only" stuff at all. Not to be against women, but I'm for men..namely, I'm for men actually standing up to their responsibilities.
Yes, for every "teenaged girl in a situation desperately trying to regain her life" I can also find you a "oops. Out of condoms. Oh well" So begrudgingly, I have to say, who are we to judge? You can't assign a litmus test that you are deserving of an abortion. It's there for everyone, or not at all.
And when I read that quote above, that I so eloquently answered sarcastically that death must be better-it infuriates me.
You want women to have the right to choose? Fine. But do it for the right reasons! Oh, the kid is going to be unwanted, so abort the fucker now is NOT logical.
And this is the point, in everything I write on this subject where I say fuck it! Maybe we do need legislation because this is human fucking life that people are terminating because its inconvenient.
As much as I want to support a woman's right to choose, it disgusts me beyond belief that the act of it is cleansed of the true horror, packaged in pretty little brochures and sold to women as a solution to their problem.
I really think the goal should be to make adoption more of a primary option. That includes after adoption support and rights to make it more palatable to the women.
actually that doesnt indicate whether rape is an excuse for having an abortion or not? when reading the link its indicated rape is a cause for abortion in several of those countries but it doesnt say otherwise for the others...
unless you mean Malta as an indication for the entirety of europe...
edit: so did a little research only Ireland, Andorra, San Marino dont allow abortion for rape victims (malta as well but they defer to European law which says yes) and Andorra/san marino/vatican city don't really count as a country
Not to mention, think of the CHILDREN!
Most people argue that women shouldn't be able to choose cause they're choosing for a life that's not theirs. Well, if not caring about women is your thing, what about children?
If I'm a woman who doesn't want a child, chances are, if I can't abort, I'm not going to do a very good job of raising it.
If I'm raped and I have the child, what if the child reminds me of my ordeal everyday? That will probably translate into my relationship with my child.
If I just ditch my child after I have it. Sure lots of kids who are adopted end up with great, well-off parents; but what about the ones that don't?
I'm not saying the kid's life will be shit. But I'd bet my balls their chances of a shitty childhood are greater than a kid who's parents wanted to have them.
Who are we to gamble on someone's life like that; knowing that the odds are stacked against them.
In freakenomics there was actually a really interesting article trending the legality of abortion against crime rates 15-20 years after the fact and found a correlation. THAT said the kids raised in a period of abortion being illegal also were raised in a more authoritative, religiously conservative culture where women are treated as lesser citizens so it's not JUST the availability of abortion that determines that but it's a symptom of a culture that creates greater deviance down the road. - Freakonomics » Chapter 4
Also. The idea that these fuckers are reopining this debate makes me furious beyond words.
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prettycool to see that every commenter is pro choice goves hope for the fiture. altho kinda sad that this is not the present with stuff like this in the news
Last edited by drunkrussian; 04-26-2012 at 08:57 AM.
BUT...I start seeing some of the excuses above and it makes me sick to my stomach. Like, have some responsibility people! Some chicks treat abortion clinics like fucking drive-throughs-"I'll take a whopper, a large fry and just suck this baby out for me and we'll be all good!"
I have known people who have had abortions. I have never known anyone to ever have more than one. It was always a painful and traumatic experience that came after hard, hard consideration even when it was instances involving things such as rape or health issues.
This idea of drive through abortions is conservative propaganda is in no way reflective of actual reality. Our system is not such that you can just walk in and say 'I would like an abortion today please', nor is it a thing that anyone but a genuine psychopath can undergo with out being deeply impacted (even if outwardly they may not pretend it is so).
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