A long, but worthwhile read for someone considering opening a shop that specializes in modifying cars. It chronicles the opening of the shop, it's success and eventual failure, highlighting many of the issues that one would expect to encounter. The shop found brief success through offering extremely high quality work, but prices reflected the quality and the average person who modifies car was more interested in price. Roll cages were a sticking point for the owner at one point if memory serves, because while he built great cages for $2500, wannabe drifters in rusty 240s were unwilling to pay the premium when cheap shops could build one for $800. The biggest regret the owner expressed towards the end of the thread was never taking producing parts more seriously. There's a limited number of serious enthusiasts in any given local market, by producing parts and selling them you can access many other markets. K-Tuned (Canada, Honda k-series engine parts) and AMR Engineering (Seattle, made to order coilovers for various makes, chassises) are excellent examples of shops finding great success in relatively limited markets by producing parts. Just my 0.02 cents.

One thing is liability. Do you actually have the technical know how to deal with these types of cars? Or are you just planning on doing basic bolt on's. So you'd be competing with SR Auto, Designo, CG, etc etc.

If you plan on charging MSRP and doing bolt on type of stuff what can you offer better then your competition (ie. SR Auto). Or if you're more on the mechanical side of life can you say you're more credible then say CG?

A simple tune up and or brake job is your bread and butter, so now you wouldn't even want to do those jobs?

Remember BIG jobs don't pay hourly. You won't be able to charge someone $90/hour for every single hour you've worked on the car. You'll put in two weeks and maybe get 1 weeks worth of actual money out of it. Also you're not going to get a customer walking in every week to install a supercharger, so what type of business do you plan on drawing in to keep your mechanics busy and paid?

Anyways, this could go on forever. I think you need to actually do up a business plan, decide how much you plan on investing, location, how much you plan to pay yourself/mechanics/etc, how you plan on marketing, what tools you need (hoists, scanners, tools, welding, pipe bending, dyno, etc etc.).

I've started, ran, opened, shut down, worked for MANY different smaller and bigger companies in similar industries. Boyz Audio, Axis Audio, Cartunes, Ralphs, Valley Toys, Synergy, Rise and work in line with many other tuner companies also. So in my personal opinion, if you don't have access to 300k (which is low already), you won't be stealing the competition away.

If you're just farming out work to different shops, ordering parts from the same suppliers, and doing basic performance bolt ons you're not different from most of the shops out there.

I would argue AirCare has been giving a lot of "car shops" plenty of business over the years.. now with OBD2 and limp mode, people probably just get by driving in limp mode all the time when the CEL is on.

Nothing to argue. You're right. Aircare helps generate business for us. If you build a "race" car that you drive on the road you don't tend to worry about air care. You build the car, then when the air care time comes, you deal with it after.

Once they get rid of air care I don't expect everyone to run in and buy an exhaust system and turbo their car. I expect to lose the customers that came to us to help detune their car and get past air care, then come back and retune it.

Why are there no car shows anymore? Il tell you why, because they have been trash for the last 10 years. Although not directly related to OPs thread. Our car shows have no alcohol, no strippers, no dancing, and a lot of family activities, and 20 tv's in one trunk. That shit is boring and useless for any demographic and no one wants to see it.

Why does the RS meet get so much attention and sponsorship? Because its not gay, thats why. We get to see real cars done by local people and they are practical. That is the taste we have here in BC, not 6 15" subs and a playstation in the glove box.

If the market is dying, why is your shop still open? You must be making some sort of profit. OP can difectly compete with you and take half your business, and thats how it should be, more competition the better.

Unfortunatly i cant argue the shop point because i have no capital and cant do it.

Canada as a whole has this stupid idea that businesses and services should be protected in some way, the Big 3 wont allow new cellular services, massive taxation on imported goods, so they want you to buy locally, and not to mention icbc, hydro and everything. I say open the fuckin floodgates already and get everyone to compete, lower the damn prices on everything, then maybe we wouldnt be in this cluster fuck of a mess we call our tuning community.

80 dollars an hour to work on a car is criminal, maybe the shop rent needs to be lower, or maybe the insurance, i dont know, but if there was more competition in those area's, overall costs would be lower, and the consumer wouldnt hafto eat these rediculous rates. And that goes for any market.

in terms of the "scene dieing" imo you have 3 types of car enthusiasts

the hardcore tuner who does all his own work, drives across the border to get his own parts, finds the best possible sources for parts and tools, and has little need of anyone other than them self

then you have the person who pays to have work done on their car, pays shop premium for parts, and puts a good chunk of their money into a hobby, but even these people are finding that parts can be had for much cheaper via Ebay etc than any shop loyalty discount anymore

Then you have the high end of the spectrum, your luxury/exotic market, which only a few shops and people have the money and commitment to own and operate such a garage, and even places like these are subject to huge eb's and flows

IMO you would be WAYYYY better off just opening a regular maintenance/oil change/drivetrain shop dealing with every day vehicles rather than trying to target the small, and decreasing market for Tuners..

the days of friends modding cars and having little mini-meets, cruising around and doing freeway pulls are -over-, when i see a group of guys with beat up 240's in a parking lot showing eachother their pink and purple rims, that shit is fucking donezoes son, and the "scene" with it.

That in itself should be considered theft,

you are getting revenue from a person due to a government mandate, that forces people not to have a faulty windshield wiper otherwise they will get a CEL and not pass aircare, thus you get money to fix it.

That money should not be yours, it should not be a guaranteed income, of people who need to use their cars, that work perfectly fine, because they need to pay hundreds of dollars for a fix, just to insure their cars to get to work, just to pay you more to fix their car 2 years later.

what a scam

I am so glad aircare will be gone, the revenue generated from it being syphoned from the public needs to stop.

It's open, does that mean business has gone up? Dying means business is drying up. I didn't say dead or zero business. The market is definitely not growing. Nor is the market big.

$80/hour I agree is brutal to pay, but you don't factor in how expensive rent is at any commercial place, let alone insurance, let alone the tools. A hoist is like 10k, a pipe bender couple k, welder couple k, tools 10k+, shop materials, garbage disposal, cardboard disposal, CREDIT CARD FEE's, CREDIT CARD MACHINE RENTAL, HYDRO, building/fire inspections, (commercial costs more), HST, INCOME TAX, Internet, telephone, SALARIES, advertising. Remember most shops are just regular blue collar dudes....

If rent wasn't so brutal I'm sure most shops could afford to charge less. I can't say I know many rich mechanics or tuners that weren't well off to begin with. Make a enough to survive, but don't think $80/h we take hour $80. I don't see many mechanics make enough to buy themselves a nice new CL63.

Again, I know you haven't spent the time to research and are just assuming things. If you think you can do it, by all means just spend a few hours researching to open your eyes a bit. Otherwise, all you're doing is talking with zero credibility and criticizing the people in the industry as thieves.
LOL

So why do we stop at american prices. Fuckit, why don't we just sell straight at china manufacturer prices? I'm sick of paying ten fucking bucks for some shit $0.25 fast food meal and $25 + tax + 20% grat at some mainstream line cooked BS resturant. Can buy bottle of booze for fucking $10 but have to pay $40 in Canada. Fuck the government. Let's just overthrow them and eliminate MONEY. And everyone can be equal, and we should eradicate free thought and books. FUCKIT. I should just take over the fucking world.

Serious note. Move to the states then you're problem is dealt with. Fact of the matter is, YOU LIVE IN CANADA. DEAL WITH IT. Do you see Americans whining about Mexican pricing? They're just across their border too.

You have to be unique to survive and to do that you have to offer quality custom fabrication and/or the R&D and development of part; both of which cost a LOT of money to start-up. Just my $0.02.

Yes exactly!

Shops cant charge less because operation costs are so high,

but thats exactly why there are so many DIY and backyard mechanics nowadays, people just cant afford it anymore.

Thats why the scene seems dead, but in reality the scene is as strong at ever, its just no one is going to shops anymore, too expensive, and quality of work is no better than DIY.

its all a product of what happening out there, shit is too expensive, services are too expensive, how is a person supposed to make 9 dollars an hour and afford a brake job? they cant.

My furnace broke during the winter, and I fixed it myself using google and youtube, because I couldnt afford the retarded 200 dollar service fee for the furnace place.

Im saying open up the market,

the insurance will be cheaper,
parts will be cheaper,
equipment will be cheaper,
rent will be cheaper,
utilities will be cheaper,

costs to the consumer will be cheaper.

ect ect...

if we keep going down this route everyone will be out of business, and everyone will DIY everything.

honestly mom and pop mechanic shops are making more money now more than ever i would say ..performance shops as stated either shops arn't actually that good (personally i think a lot of "performance shops" around here are really half ass stuff i can do at home myself)..not many ppl "tune" their cars as much as before ..2 its very hard to get a reputation unless you previously have worked at a performance shop / have lots of experience... you need sale experience / good shop layout etc and once again as stated before the tuning scene is dieing..most ppl just do rims / tires..maybe a lip kit and a couple other small things..not really much to be made IMO any more..mom and pop shops everyone takes their car to now because it gets the job done still for like half the cost of a dealership for same result not to mention better customer service than dealerships

Yep $80 seems steep but my friends overhead for his shop in total was 6 grand a month and he worked by himself.. Shop was in richmond

unless you can Tune / Fabricate cages/exhaust/intercooler piping etc. / wire / wrench on whatever your target vehicle market is its probably not worth the shot..

Theres a few small shops around that have only 1 or 2 guys working there who can do all those things and they make aloooot of money. But you have to be really good and get known for that to happen!

Also having a dyno is a must for the kind of shop you are interested in opening, and dynos cost 30G+ usually, a engine dyno would be a great asset since not many shops in the lower mainland have one, but those are super expensive lol. Having a dyno would be a big bonus though since its so useful, could also rent it out for amatures to tune their cars etc. and have cheap dyno day every 2 weeks :P

Nice, very mature.

Representing rise auto salon.



If OPs target market is high ends, i think theres a good market for it. If he's targetting civics and dsm's, dont think it will work because these people cant afford 80 bucks an hour

If it is just opening for competition is the easy solution.. Wind etc will be making a killing.. the problem is not with competition but the cost building the towers. It just cost a whole heck of lot/user for providers, with every change in standard you need to put in new higher density towers. With all the NIMBYS in Vancouver, you just can't get that new tower agreements out of people.. if you imagine trouble of putting in smart meters, negotiating cell towers are 100x worse.

Vancouver is at the end of the West coast supply chain and the chain itself is already 1/2 that of the East coast one.. when you see BC produce cheaper in places like New York or Toronto. You will realize it is not our tax policies but we just don't have that high population density to sustain the economy of scale, it just cost that much more to do business in Western Canada due to small volume.

We can change that and we are changing that by having in more immigrants.. which like it or not love Vancouver.. and are allegedly driving up our real estate prices and population density. It will make things cheaper on the long run. (except for rent of course).

Honestly $80/hour is not that bad comparable to the rest of the world.. even in the US. We don't have MOT inspection like in Europe or Asia, we don't need an engineer to certify our cars and our mods are street legal every year (Australia). Also our tax regime is not that bad either.. compared with Europe where 20% - 40% VAT is the norm... (not to mention income).. we are paying peanuts.

If you don't like Vancouver so much.. why don't you just http://www.cool-smileys.com/images/245.gif? We won't miss ya.

Why would it be considered theft? The people went to CMan333 for a service, they also paid HST for it. Our aircare is not displacement based.

We needed Aircare to force car manufacturer to tighten up the rule, which they did and added limp mode.. Places like California has smog check too.. Like I had said above. North America has the slackest car check mandate in the developed world.

It's a shame, I see skilled workers being laid off from mechanic's shops simply because of overhead and how much a simple brake job costs because of it.

For example, my dad went to a shop to see how much one new rotor and calipers were for our S10, $500.

I went and bought the parts and installed them myself overnight so that my dad could have the truck for work the next day, and it only cost $250 + my time.


I feel guilty, yet I don't, yet I do. Simply because I know what it's like at a shop, yet I know what it's like to have $250 taken from any of our monthly budgets at home.

What it comes down to is people that know (and have the space+tools) vs. people that don't, and luckily for me I did, so I saved 250 bucks.

It's a two way street for everyone, a little fucked up.

Was a joke. Based on your logic behind what you said. Same shit you said, different context.

Point is, there's alot more to it then "opening the floodgates". I really don't feel like getting into this topic anymore because it will go on forever, we're so off the original topic anyways.

Again, don't disagree with you. I hate paying $80 an hour for anything just as much as anyone else does. Unfortunately this is the way it is in modern day society.

If your going to open one... Do it right... tailor it to HIGH end or exotics.. dont do low ends like honda civics.. you will find yourself out of business... Lots of mainlanders have money to spend.. but NOT on hondas and toyotas...


you gotta spend money to make money.. if you do want to do it.. you gotta get your name out.. what better way then to get a nice high car and slap on your company logo.. not on some beater civics or crap...

^^^

he has the right idea.

After working in a in one of the first local shops for a few years I've seen it all.

you need to set you sights on your demographic. ricers or mid or luxury cars. you cant do it all.

if you are in the low end (Ricer) you will fail. cheap customers wanting the stars and want it all for next to nothing. you end up buying from local distributors that even sell to consumers out the front door. how can you even compete? tons of customers but too many ricer shops undercutting each other. don't bother. poor Kids/students are your customers

Mid end. do actual mechanical work and stress quality service and reasonable prices. carry good quality products. word of mouth will get you repeat customers. good customer service keeps em coming back, even if you're not the cheapest. I believe this is the sweet spot. do not compromise on service or quality and don't be afraid to turn customers away or politely refer them to a ricer shop. I value customer service and will pay more for it. working adults are your customers

High end. (luxury etc) make whopping profits of customers that have $ to burn. seriously. they don't care. keep em happy. fix every little issue they have. its a gravy train. however, customers are fewer and turnover of products slower. initial investment is very high. Rich folk are your customers.

that said, is the scene dead. yeah, i think so.

there will always be a need, but not like it was 10 years ago. that was a fucking gong show.

I read though all 58 pages(skipping all the 'wow, ur so great' posts) and just focusing on the business posts.

This is THE read for anyone considering opening a shop in anything automotive related.

He had everything going for him...money bags father in law, supportive gf and the guy was super talented.

And he got it wrong. He got so focused on the next weld and the next manifold that he let the big picture slide. He was busting ass making signature pieces as one-offs that he completely neglected the idea that there was a market for more reasonably priced products that could be made faster(and cheaper) that would have allowed him to pick and choose what 'signature pieces' were worthy of his personal attention.

In the end, he came across as arrogant and unresponsive to customers as he was very much trying to sell his version of what they 'should' want that he forgot to listen to what they 'did' want.

He spent 2 years working for free, and I think the 3rd year probably at minimal pay. He was drained and exhausted.

Half true, for a business, never target certain category of people, thus you are limiting your customer, unless you know there are a lot of customers in that category

I'm not sure if there are X amount people with High ends greater than X amount people with Low end cars.

You can mostly focus on high end cars, but you never say, no to anything. In other words, if your shop can fit 10 customers per day, it is unlikely that all 10 customers have high end cars, but instead schedule 7 or 8 out of 10 with High end cars, and take 2 or 3 low end cars as breaks since its easy

Edit

Same goes to Telus/Rogers/Bell or any other company, they don't limit themselves with ONLY super smart phones, therefore not limiting to specific category even tho that category is huge. All of them have and carry non smartphones.

Why does Telus needs Koodo, Why does Rogers bought Fido, Why does Bell needs Solo Mobile

Because Koodo, Fido , Sole Mobile is still Telus Rogers Bell, respectively, and they target different category of people.

Don't tell me Rogers can survive well without Fido

Also

A customer is a customer, doesn't matter what they drive now, it can all change. All shops build from reputation and relationship with the customers and also refer. They drive lower end cars in University needs car service, then after they graduated and is able to afford Bimmer, now if the shop they have always been to for their lower end car service, guess what? they will likely to choose the same shop for their higher end car.

Since there are so many businesses and shops, never limit yourself, just like why do people who speaks multiple languages would get a job easier than those who can only speak one? Languages are your assets and every type of customers are assets too

Correct me if I'm wrong, there is no way that there is any shop that is always busy 365 days with everyone coming in with their high end cars for service

In order to survive, when other people say no, you say yes.

Last shop I worked for (Silk Cat) was exactly like this. Always busy, and with a large portion of that business being high-end cars.

I think the only way to succeed as a tuning shop is not to open a tuning shop at all. Start an honest, reliable and quality automotive service shop. Do your tuning/modding as a secondary (gravy) business.

For example, we had steady service business that paid all the bills and allowed the owner to make a comfortable living. On top of these regular customers we took on project cars like full-on restorations of classic Jaguars. We would have 1 or 2 in the shop all the time and they often took months (or longer) to complete. These cars were "filler" cars, worked on to use up available spare time when you're not doing all the regular service business.

Technically, since the regular service customers paid all the bills, you could work on these cars as a "hobby" since you don't need the income. Of course, no business is going to do work for free, but you can apply this another way: by doing outstanding work.

Since you don't make a living with these project cars, you can take your time to do work that is "over and above" what's expected. Maybe a job takes 20 hours and you bill the customer 20 hours. But you actually spent 25 hours on the job because you looked after some extra "detail work". Everyone wins. You used up free shop time to bill out 20 hours extra labour over your regular business. The customer is happy when they see the job you did (and, of course, you're going to point out the few extra things you did and didn't charge them for).


There's only one big problem with this business model: It takes years to build up regular clientele and get a shop to this stage where you're making a good living. Most shops (like any small business) will fail.

Awesome then that is a successful shop and other shops could learn something from

When you say "a large portion" meaning 80%? while 20%? is probably lower end cars, thus, you can't never label yourself "High End Cars Only"

What about doing winter seasons? Do people still drive their lambo, r8, in snows? or heavy rain? Not to mention, stupid drivers could hit your car, but the salt on the road will hurt your exterior.

Every type of business has their limit, for cars, it can be seasonal. Thus, you can't limit yourself anymore

Being unique is important, but depends on how many customers you can receive from it. By providing broad services to any cars, you have more customers, more refer to make a big name of your shop. But it doesn't means that you accept everyone. Like I purpose, if you can schedule 10 customer per day, 7 being high end cars, and 3 low end + squeeze 1 or 2 extra low end cars since doesn't require that much of detail and less work.

And i know it is not easy say then done, but it is sure a lot harder, by essentially saying Low End Cars :gtfo:

Sure if a company can keep up with being busy all year long with high end cars, but if talking 1 year 2 years 3 years? haha good luck with that prediction

Tim you should do it.
I would come to you :)

"High end" cars don't necessarily have to mean brand new Lambo's or other supercars. There are just as many expensive cars being driven year round (higher range models from Audi/BMW/Merc/etc). Plus many older cars that were once $100k+ when new are still on the road and need "greater attention to detail" when being worked on. That's not to say that Joe's Garage down the road isn't capable of working on a 2001 M5, but chances are someone who specializes in luxury cars is going to be more familiar with them, thus a quicker turn around and access to certain tools that Joe's wont have.

A buddy of mine opened up a shop in Maple Ridge a year or two ago now. While his main clientele are the average person driving off the street, he also specializes in high end classic car restorations. He's got three 60's-era muscle cars, all with blank cheques that will ultimately end up costing each owner over $200,000 to do. Obviously these aren't the cars he works on all the time; as Dangonay said, they're cars that get worked on when there's downtime or when he's bored after work hours. That said, he's been working on bringing in customers by going above and beyond when it comes to customer service, and it shows by simply driving by the shop during the day; it's constantly full.