Vancouver's Real Estate Market

[Z3guy]

^ don't get me wrong, I love my AMV8, but I loved my 1992 318is with a racings dynamics body and wheels more! it was my first nice car! (and I was young)

[4444]

A lot of people earn more money and don't spend much more, they invest it so as to be financially free at a much earlier age (me)

Also, please don't equate Vancouver as the only place which is clean, pretty, etc. in Canada, yes, totally, but the world is a great big place, there's so much to see

[heleu]

Originally Posted by 4444

A lot of people earn more money and don't spend much more, they invest it so as to be financially free at a much earlier age (me)

Also, please don't equate Vancouver as the only place which is clean, pretty, etc. in Canada, yes, totally, but the world is a great big place, there's so much to see

I've been to quite a few places, and Vancouver is unique. For sure, places like Geneva, London, New York, Tokyo, Hong Kong, Sydney all have their own charm, but Vancouver is the place to live for me. Best combination of weather and environment.

...as for Canadian cities. Well, I just don't like the -20C or colder winters...

[heleu]

Originally Posted by Z3guy

^ don't get me wrong, I love my AMV8, but I loved my 1992 318is with a racings dynamics body and wheels more! it was my first nice car! (and I was young)

Yeah, I know what you mean. I have a 91 MR2 a few years back that was old and rode rough, and I still miss it.

[Z3guy]

^ my first car was a beat up Datsun 510. I really enjoyed that thing because I was 16, it was cheap,manual, rwd, and I could slide it around with no fear because it maybe had 90hp. haha! when I can afford a bigger garage, I want to get a minty 510 and give it the Peter Brock DRC treatment.

[shawnly1000]

17% of condo owners in Toronto, Vancouver bought for investment - Business - CBC News

Almost one out of five condominium owners in Toronto and Vancouver have bought another unit in order to use as an investment, according to a new Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation (CMHC) survey.

The survey doesn’t include Canadian and foreign investors who own units in Toronto and Vancouver but to do not live in either of those cities. Dugan says CMHC hopes to include these investors in the next survey, which is tentatively slated for this fall.

"We have tried to look at foreign ownership over the years," said Dugan. "It's a very difficult group because many of them don't live in Canada full time. We have tried to use land registry data, but that doesn't give you an accurate picture because some of them may hire a property manager or lawyer to report for them."

[noclue]

Originally Posted by NKC ONE

Here are the reasons why.
1) Wages
2) Taxes
3) Economic rate of return

1. From my experiences, wages are quite low in Vancouver since there are so many people looking for work, I do business in northern BC and I noticed wages especially trades is much higher there than here.

2. Taxes, definitely agree but if you are a business owner it is great in BC since you can pay yourself in dividends. Do you know that even if you buy a used car, if it is over $55K you pay a luxury tax! Also thanks to the idiots who voted for no HST I noticed my costs have gone up since I don't remit more taxes.

3. Vancouver is too saturated, too much competition. If you want to make money you have to leave Vancouver. Other parts of BC are doing well like Northern BC. Unfortunately for the environmentalists who dream that northern gateway is not going to happen, they have already began construction up to the BC border in Alberta.

Originally Posted by Hehe

Because wife and kid comes back whenever they have a chance. Wife doesn't like SoCal all that much and is there only because of an important grant for her career/research. And they often have some break between one part of research to the next.

That plus my parents/in-laws come here every so often since they are all retired.

I think given my budget and location preference (not crossing bridges), I like what I am seeing online in Burnaby near Edmonds station. Any one has comment about that area?

I assume you are looking at the city in the park neighbourhood? I have relatives who live there with a young child and they say it's great place to live. However they did suffer a pipe burst but since your renting it shouldn't matter!

Anyone else read the employment stats for July? The number of people working in construction dropped by 42,200 in July and employment in health care and social assistance was down by 28,500, Statscan reported. Those two are Vancouver's biggest industries.. NKC ONE you might be getting your real estate plans ahead of schedule...

[4444]

Originally Posted by heleu

I've been to quite a few places, and Vancouver is unique. For sure, places like Geneva, London, New York, Tokyo, Hong Kong, Sydney all have their own charm, but Vancouver is the place to live for me. Best combination of weather and environment.

...as for Canadian cities. Well, I just don't like the -20C or colder winters...

I'm not sure if I'd want to live in most of those cities u've listed (maybe new york, I turned down London), there are way better comparables.

You've definitely seen more than most vancouverites, and I'm glad u have found ur home, but everyone is different in what they want, I just fear too many ppl in Vancouver are blinded by the constant "beautiful bc" "best place on earth to live" propaganda. And that's what it is, propaganda

[Z3guy]

^ or blinded to ensure you advise anyone who listen to you that Vancouver is not that great. Fortunately more people disagree with you than agree.

[supafamous]

Originally Posted by noclue

1. From my experiences, wages are quite low in Vancouver since there are so many people looking for work, I do business in northern BC and I noticed wages especially trades is much higher there than here.

Agreed. The pay sucks in Vancouver especially considering the cost of living.

I moved to Victoria for work and am planning to move back to Vancouver soon (Just got married, wife works in Van, parents getting old) and I'm looking at a minimum of a $30-40K pay cut to return. Victoria's cheaper to live, has nicer weather, less traffic etc too so the difference in quality of living will be huge.

I know of lots of folks who've moved to other cities from Vancouver and doubled their salary for the same job (or one step up).

[NKC ONE]

Originally Posted by heleu

Such an interesting last few pages in the thread.

NKC One, I also grew up in the Seafair area, and went to school at Hugh Boyd. I'm probably about the same age as you, but I stayed in Vancouver after university.

My family income is over $100K. We're comfortable and happy. I own (lol, well the bank owns mostly) a 3 bedroom townhouse, and we have two older cars. Is it a good life? Well, depends on how you define it. We can eat out pretty much anywhere we want, take overseas vacations every year, and have fun with friends. But we definitely don't buy very many luxuries and don't drive new cars. I'm always shocked by how many friends drive luxury cars and make $1K lease payments; they must not be saving any money or are powered by parents.

So for once I actually agree with multicultural; if you want to live luxuriously in Vancouver, you need to make more than $100K. But as NKCOne put it, money does not equal happiness. I had some friends from Australia come over and they were shocked how cheap BMWs were here. In Australia, they have huge import tarriffs on import cars, and a mid level 3 series is easily 100K. They asked why everyone doesn't drive a 3 series - well, a lot of people do drive them here, but it doesn't make people any happier.

In terms of jobs, I don't fully agree that you can't be successful owning your own business here. I know some plumbers and dentists making $300K+ a year here, but they definitely work hard. I do agree that there is far less opportunity for employees because of the lack of head offices and industry. We can't all work for lululemon, lol. The way I see it, if you want to earn well north of six figures, you need to be either in high end sales (be it recruiting, engineering, real estate, wine or whatever), or be rich and connected enough to be part of the old boys club here.

Occasionally, I do dream of working overseas, or even in Calgary, to make waaay more money and have more job satisfaction. But then I ride my bike, smell the air, see the trees, and I realize I have it pretty good in Vancouver, even with all the costs.

Fair points and I think we're still more or less in agreement with each other than not. Maybe we know each other. I too went to Boyd grad year 2001. PM me and let's get together some day, grab a drink and reminisce the old days. I'll probably be back in October to drive the car I just bought without seeing and trying it lol.

[NKC ONE]

Originally Posted by Hehe

Because wife and kid comes back whenever they have a chance. Wife doesn't like SoCal all that much and is there only because of an important grant for her career/research. And they often have some break between one part of research to the next.

That plus my parents/in-laws come here every so often since they are all retired.

I think given my budget and location preference (not crossing bridges), I like what I am seeing online in Burnaby near Edmonds station. Any one has comment about that area?

lol that wasn't my post and quote. I wouldn't make that suggestion in a million years.

Maybe if I was high or trying to screw with you but we all know that the Vancouver real estate thread is no joke.

[NKC ONE]

I understand that a lot of you may feel wages are low in Vancouver. Compared to the rest of Canada, yes maybe but not compared to the rest of the world. Please remember that no one is forcing you to stay in Canada. The world is big and you have the freedom to work anywhere you want and make as much as you want as long as you try. I know that sounds a little scammy siminar-ish BS but I really do feel that as long as you try, things will generally happen. If you don't, well the best you can do is complain about the current environment.

Let's take a relevant example that I have in mind. Mind you, I don't often like to search for a lot of articles or so called "facts" to back my shit up. I just try to talk from the heart and experiences and hopefully gain some good conversations with you guys.

BC's minimum wage is at $10.25/hr compared to HK's $4.22/hr cad. It doesn't take a mathematician to see that's a tad more than double. So tell me, is it more expensive to live in HK or Vancouver? Since this is a real estate thread, we'll assume that housing is our main concern here.

So comparing the 2 cities, which place is more expensive and unaffordable place to live?

If opportunities were equal for both cities, where would I choose to do business in?

If I were to choose a place to work (9-5), which city would I work in?

Let's even say if the pay was the same, where would you prefer to work at?

This topic does not even need to touch the difference of Taxes.

Now let's move on and compare with China which is where my business is in.
Minimum wage in Shenzhen China is now at $2.94/hr cad (it was much cheaper when I started) compared to BC's $10.25/hr cad. I'll tell you straight up that on a daily basis, it will cost more to live in China than it does in HK (housing aside). Gas prices are roughly the same as BC's. Housing has gone up exponentially over the past 10 years.

So without making and statements, I just want you to think about what's worse. Yes it's easy to complain about low wages, high cost of living, etc but there are much worse places and I would even put Vancouver as one of the best, ratio wise. Is Van the perfect place? It depends on how you look at it. Can it be utopia where wages are high, housing is low, population density is low, and still maintain the beauty and resources that Van has?

I'm very open to counter arguments and I welcome any suggestions. Please tell me straight up if you think I'm wrong, don't need to sugar coat stuff for me, I'm a big boy now. We're all students of life.

[Mr.HappySilp]

Originally Posted by NKC ONE

I understand that a lot of you may feel wages are low in Vancouver. Compared to the rest of Canada, yes maybe but not compared to the rest of the world. Please remember that no one is forcing you to stay in Canada. The world is big and you have the freedom to work anywhere you want and make as much as you want as long as you try. I know that sounds a little scammy siminar-ish BS but I really do feel that as long as you try, things will generally happen. If you don't, well the best you can do is complain about the current environment.

Let's take a relevant example that I have in mind. Mind you, I don't often like to search for a lot of articles or so called "facts" to back my shit up. I just try to talk from the heart and experiences and hopefully gain some good conversations with you guys.

BC's minimum wage is at $10.25/hr compared to HK's $4.22/hr cad. It doesn't take a mathematician to see that's a tad more than double. So tell me, is it more expensive to live in HK or Vancouver? Since this is a real estate thread, we'll assume that housing is our main concern here.

So comparing the 2 cities, which place is more expensive and unaffordable place to live?

If opportunities were equal for both cities, where would I choose to do business in?

If I were to choose a place to work (9-5), which city would I work in?

Let's even say if the pay was the same, where would you prefer to work at?

This topic does not even need to touch the difference of Taxes.

Now let's move on and compare with China which is where my business is in.
Minimum wage in Shenzhen China is now at $2.94/hr cad (it was much cheaper when I started) compared to BC's $10.25/hr cad. I'll tell you straight up that on a daily basis, it will cost more to live in China than it does in HK (housing aside). Gas prices are roughly the same as BC's. Housing has gone up exponentially over the past 10 years.

So without making and statements, I just want you to think about what's worse. Yes it's easy to complain about low wages, high cost of living, etc but there are much worse places and I would even put Vancouver as one of the best, ratio wise. Is Van the perfect place? It depends on how you look at it. Can it be utopia where wages are high, housing is low, population density is low, and still maintain the beauty and resources that Van has?

I'm very open to counter arguments and I welcome any suggestions. Please tell me straight up if you think I'm wrong, don't need to sugar coat stuff for me, I'm a big boy now. We're all students of life.

Hk market tends to be a bit different as their housing market/rental is way out of wack. a 50 sq ft room rents for $3500 HK dollars (just saw it on the news). Assume $1CND is $7.4HK dollar $3500 HK = $472 CND. Rental unit is crazy in HK. At least in Vancouver a room about 100sq ft goes for about $600 (friends is renting so I know).

I hate to image how would I live in HK. I make decent money in Van (not crazy but enough to live a comfy live and have left over to put a down payment for an apartment). In HK I will never ever be able to afford an apartment....... not to mention the stress, the pollution and over population(too much China tourist and is driving everything up and using up all HK rescsource but that's another topic). At least in Vancouver we don't have that happen YET (I mean YET it will happen maybe in 10 to 15 years you will see over population and over crowding and rescourses being used like crazy).

[multicartual]

Originally Posted by NKC ONE

Please tell me straight up if you think I'm wrong, don't need to sugar coat stuff for me, I'm a big boy now. We're all students of life.

I think you should pay models around 600-800 to let you face fuck them on camera, do one a week for like 20 weeks and release a site like "extreme throat fucks" and keep it updated every week. Bonus if you include behind-the-scenes and really promote it hard. It will cost a bunch up front but you'll be a legend among Vancouverites and as long as you listen to what your members advise you to do, you'll make money!

[multicartual]

Originally Posted by NKC ONE

HK's $4.22/hr cad

I watched a documentary on people in HK that rent basically "cages" to live in.

I cried

[Mr.HappySilp]

Originally Posted by multicartual

I watched a documentary on people in HK that rent basically "cages" to live in.

I cried

Expensive cages $3500 for a 50sq ft room. That's around $472 Canadian dollar.

[4444]

Originally Posted by Z3guy

^ or blinded to ensure you advise anyone who listen to you that Vancouver is not that great. Fortunately more people disagree with you than agree.

In your opinion. In my profession, people are leaving Vancouver in droves, that speaks volumes to me.

Thankfully I don't care about being popular in my views or opinion. Most people are idiots, so going against the grain will often lead to be success, however you measure success

also, you think i'm blinded? i lived in vancouver for over 15 years. unlike most people, i have been fortunte to live around the world, so whilst vnacouver is a fine place, for me, i want more, way more.

personally, i find southern california way more beautiful and a way better place to live. seattle also has the same climate, but a way better economy, and a great social scene.

usually when people have to keep on telling themselves something ('best place on earth'), it's because they're insecure.

if vnacouver is so great, why is there so much net local migration. Canadians are leaving vnacouver to go elsewhere, being replaced with immigrants - now, this could turn into a totally different discussion, but the net migration numbers are quite shocking - it's great if you're coming from China, Philippines, or India (3 greatest sources of non-resident immigrants in vancouver), but then again, you're not comparing apples to apples with these countries.

[multicartual]

Originally Posted by 4444

however you measure success

Money, bitches, reproducing with fine genetic specimens

[NKC ONE]

Originally Posted by 4444

In your opinion. In my profession, people are leaving Vancouver in droves, that speaks volumes to me.

Thankfully I don't care about being popular in my views or opinion. Most people are idiots, so going against the grain will often lead to be success, however you measure success

We might be brothers. What you said is exactly how I strive to live. If too many people agree with you, then something is definitely wrong. The 1% is 1% for a reason and the main reason is that they don't do what the remaining 99% does.

Where do you live now? Maybe we can get together some time for BBT or drinks and talk about everything hahaha. Would be an honor to shoot the shit with you.

[NKC ONE]

Originally Posted by multicartual

I think you should pay models around 600-800 to let you face fuck them on camera, do one a week for like 20 weeks and release a site like "extreme throat fucks" and keep it updated every week. Bonus if you include behind-the-scenes and really promote it hard. It will cost a bunch up front but you'll be a legend among Vancouverites and as long as you listen to what your members advise you to do, you'll make money!

I love this idea but I have no intention of being legendary anywhere. Although I'm currently not looking for new ideas to make money, the idea of doing porn has always fascinated me. Maybe "Masked Man Throat Fuck" like the guy who gives away magician secrets. I shall be now known as the Vagician.

[4444]

Originally Posted by NKC ONE

We might be brothers. What you said is exactly how I strive to live. If too many people agree with you, then something is definitely wrong. The 1% is 1% for a reason and the main reason is that they don't do what the remaining 99% does.

Where do you live now? Maybe we can get together some time for BBT or drinks and talk about everything hahaha. Would be an honor to shoot the shit with you.

maybe so... i live in mainland Europe nowadays, though.

i don't need to agree with ppl, but everyone has to realize things like vancouver being best city in the world (liek we hear from everyone in vancouver, but few outside of it) is just that, opinion. a lot of ppl leave for their own reasons.

i won't argue that vancouver is beautiful, relatively clean (it's not that clean, most european cities are cleaner as they are so car unfriendly in downtown and utilize transit more), safe, and a VERY easy life - but i want more from my life... i'll come back to vnacouver for part of the year when i retire, it's perfect for that, raising a family, yes, being a professional that yearns to be a 1%er, terrible place.

[4444]

Originally Posted by NKC ONE

I understand that a lot of you may feel wages are low in Vancouver. Compared to the rest of Canada, yes maybe but not compared to the rest of the world. Please remember that no one is forcing you to stay in Canada. The world is big and you have the freedom to work anywhere you want and make as much as you want as long as you try. I know that sounds a little scammy siminar-ish BS but I really do feel that as long as you try, things will generally happen. If you don't, well the best you can do is complain about the current environment.

Let's take a relevant example that I have in mind. Mind you, I don't often like to search for a lot of articles or so called "facts" to back my shit up. I just try to talk from the heart and experiences and hopefully gain some good conversations with you guys.

BC's minimum wage is at $10.25/hr compared to HK's $4.22/hr cad. It doesn't take a mathematician to see that's a tad more than double. So tell me, is it more expensive to live in HK or Vancouver? Since this is a real estate thread, we'll assume that housing is our main concern here.

So comparing the 2 cities, which place is more expensive and unaffordable place to live?

If opportunities were equal for both cities, where would I choose to do business in?

If I were to choose a place to work (9-5), which city would I work in?

Let's even say if the pay was the same, where would you prefer to work at?

This topic does not even need to touch the difference of Taxes.

Now let's move on and compare with China which is where my business is in.
Minimum wage in Shenzhen China is now at $2.94/hr cad (it was much cheaper when I started) compared to BC's $10.25/hr cad. I'll tell you straight up that on a daily basis, it will cost more to live in China than it does in HK (housing aside). Gas prices are roughly the same as BC's. Housing has gone up exponentially over the past 10 years.

So without making and statements, I just want you to think about what's worse. Yes it's easy to complain about low wages, high cost of living, etc but there are much worse places and I would even put Vancouver as one of the best, ratio wise. Is Van the perfect place? It depends on how you look at it. Can it be utopia where wages are high, housing is low, population density is low, and still maintain the beauty and resources that Van has?

I'm very open to counter arguments and I welcome any suggestions. Please tell me straight up if you think I'm wrong, don't need to sugar coat stuff for me, I'm a big boy now. We're all students of life.

i'd say that canada, and soon the US, will join Europe in being a socialist mecca (though the US is f'd because of their political system) - high wages for low end work, high taxes, social security, the death of hte middle class, and ability for those that own assets (the 1%ers) to exploit whatever they can. The gap between rich and poor grows every day, and these moves aren't helping.

the asian model is completely fucked too, corrupt governments, people working for $1 per hour (Vietnam, Philippines, Thailand - I do business with these labour costs), no infratructure (education), which allows those 1%ers in the western world to exploit these fucked up SE asian countries.

Also SE asian countries basically charge no tax on income generated there, maybe 0% for 5-10 years, then a 5% tax rate... if they try to charge greater, the company will move to another country and negotiate the same 0% rate... they only get about 10% when profits leave the country (in vietnam you used to be able to get 0% withholding of dividends).

so, to conclude, Norht America is becoming a pussy state where lazy fucks (in my opinion) can go on social security instead of working, which results in BS like the foreign worker's program. SE Asia is so corrupt that it's people suffer.

Then there's Europe, whcih has been socialist for many years, and is now in a gripe of anti immigrant, right wing sentiment (could lead to the break up, or at least weakening of the EU), and a race to the bottom with respects to corproate taxes. NEtherlands at 25%, Britain at 20%, profits movnig around europe basically tax free...

I personally believe the US could be hte strongest place in the world for generations to come if they just fixed their political structure (easier said than done), significantly decreased red tape, taxes, and BS, stop all the socialist programs (food stamps, even free healthcare - you should be incentivised to work, one of those incentives is healthcare, i'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but i wouldn't expect to be taken care of if i was a leech on society), and brought back the desire of old that was the US way, work hard, be the best, develop the best. the US, and north america (and a lot of europe) has become lazy, fat, lethargic - opening the door to others who are more hungry, to displace them.

now, back to your original point. we all can't be equal, we all can't earn a good living wage, and live the same level of life. Humans are innately competitive, there will always be 'gods and clods', so why fuck that up with government intervention.

what i want the government to do is offer free education and training to everyone. a skilled labour force is a more productive labour force. get people to be worth $10, 11, 20 an hour, don't mandate their minimum pay. people should be paid what they're worth, most miniumum wage jobs just aren't worth it from an economic perspective.

now, before i get ppl calling me an arse, i already know i'm an arse, i'm very conservative in my business thinking, i'm also self made, self educated (i.e. i paid for everything), but was taught amazing things from my parents re: working hard and education... i have had many privileges in life, such as being born and raised in teh countries i have lived, but i was never given special treatment, and i think this should apply to every able bodied person around. this is just my opinion, i'm ok with ppl that don't agree, but let's try to be adult in responses and not say 'that's stupd' - whether stupid or not, the rich/poor gap is growing rapidly, so clearly the system is broken.

[iEatClams]

Originally Posted by NKC ONE

I understand that a lot of you may feel wages are low in Vancouver. Compared to the rest of Canada, yes maybe but not compared to the rest of the world. Please remember that no one is forcing you to stay in Canada. The world is big and you have the freedom to work anywhere you want and make as much as you want as long as you try. I know that sounds a little scammy siminar-ish BS but I really do feel that as long as you try, things will generally happen. If you don't, well the best you can do is complain about the current environment.

Let's take a relevant example that I have in mind. Mind you, I don't often like to search for a lot of articles or so called "facts" to back my shit up. I just try to talk from the heart and experiences and hopefully gain some good conversations with you guys.

BC's minimum wage is at $10.25/hr compared to HK's $4.22/hr cad. It doesn't take a mathematician to see that's a tad more than double. So tell me, is it more expensive to live in HK or Vancouver? Since this is a real estate thread, we'll assume that housing is our main concern here.

So comparing the 2 cities, which place is more expensive and unaffordable place to live?

If opportunities were equal for both cities, where would I choose to do business in?

If I were to choose a place to work (9-5), which city would I work in?

Let's even say if the pay was the same, where would you prefer to work at?

This topic does not even need to touch the difference of Taxes.

Now let's move on and compare with China which is where my business is in.
Minimum wage in Shenzhen China is now at $2.94/hr cad (it was much cheaper when I started) compared to BC's $10.25/hr cad. I'll tell you straight up that on a daily basis, it will cost more to live in China than it does in HK (housing aside). Gas prices are roughly the same as BC's. Housing has gone up exponentially over the past 10 years.

So without making and statements, I just want you to think about what's worse. Yes it's easy to complain about low wages, high cost of living, etc but there are much worse places and I would even put Vancouver as one of the best, ratio wise. Is Van the perfect place? It depends on how you look at it. Can it be utopia where wages are high, housing is low, population density is low, and still maintain the beauty and resources that Van has?

I'm very open to counter arguments and I welcome any suggestions. Please tell me straight up if you think I'm wrong, don't need to sugar coat stuff for me, I'm a big boy now. We're all students of life.

for a lot of people, it's not as easy to get up and leave. there's a lot of social and cultural issues to be aware of. and sometimes it's not about the money. sure other places you can make more money, but they say as long as you make above X dollars money doesnt make you that much happier. you can compare with china - and their corruption and pollution and their culture, or you can compare with other western countries. maybe you just prefer canadian culture instead of british culture. lots of other non-monetary issues.

ill take myself as an example. for me, i could easily find jobs now at my age in other provinces and make more (or less). ild say it's relatively easy for me to move within Canada. and i also have some friends or relatives in other provinces.

I grew up ghetto and poor as fck so I wouldn't be able to move to say Europe or US as I dont have any connections. and it's also a big risk to get up and go as I have no social networks in those other places. I'ld be on my own. In vancouver, I have lots of friends and family that can assist and support me.

I would like to move to other countries but in all honestly, it's too risky for me. Unless I can secure the job before I go there, there's no way I would take that chance. A lot of people value security: for work, for friends, for their families.

Is Van the perfect place? I've lived in other cities in other provinces in Canada and I can only compare Vancouver to those other cities. and for me, Vancouver is better due to climate and friends and family. But other cities in the world I have no clue, sure ive visited them as a tourist, but thats like seeing the best parts of the city.

[multicartual]

Originally Posted by 4444

the rich/poor gap is growing rapidly, so clearly the system is broken.

Either that or it's working really well!!!