Vancouver's Real Estate Market

[Graeme S]

Ask any international student, and you'll find "homestays" that are really just dorms. 5-7 students.

A few of my students' so-called homestays were actually two houses next door to each other; five students in each, parents taking care of one house, kids the other. $700-850/student, with most of the family members also working day-jobs. Some of the worst would cut holes in the wall to access the water pipes and had hacked in shutoff valves, so that the students "wouldn't waste water" and would turn off the hot after five minutes. And let them do ONE load of laundry ONCE a week.


Where there's a will, there's a way...

[subordinate]

Originally Posted by Graeme S

Ask any international student, and you'll find "homestays" that are really just dorms. 5-7 students.

A few of my students' so-called homestays were actually two houses next door to each other; five students in each, parents taking care of one house, kids the other. $700-850/student, with most of the family members also working day-jobs. Some of the worst would cut holes in the wall to access the water pipes and had hacked in shutoff valves, so that the students "wouldn't waste water" and would turn off the hot after five minutes. And let them do ONE load of laundry ONCE a week.


Where there's a will, there's a way...

Some people are fucken heartless

Wait...one load of laundry/week is OK, I mean, there should be some flexibility in this.

[4444]

Originally Posted by Stormspirit

Seems to me the only way to make money in real estate or even to break even is buy a house, make as many rooms out of it as possible and rent em all out. Either you break even until your mortgage is done getting paid for by tenants or you have to chip in a little every month for the mortgage, ofc backed up by the tenants.

Even then I think its too late to do this Canada.

i'll try to keep this quick, as we've been over this before

canada, overall, is overpriced, especially vancouver & toronto - you don't buy now, you wait. it will get better, you know in 2000, you could buy almost anything, rent it out and cash flow fine - that was only 13 years ago - these prices are a short term blip. yes, west van, kits, downtown, will be a slight premium as they are demand areas, but overall prices have a long way to come down


if you want to invest in real estate (when the time is right), pick the right properties in the right neighbourhoods in the right cities, simple as that - you need to know what you're doing, it's not just buy, rent, and profit, it may seem like that when you watch HGTV, but as a real estate investor, it takes a LOT of research, analysis, etc.

the payoff can be great, but you need to manage your risk and get your timing better than not.

[iEatClams]

I want to point out one big misconception in Vancouver. A lot of people think they can just "RENT" out their units easily. A lot of people I meet or acquaintances always think they will just rent it out if they cant sell, or they think they see a "cheap" property and want to buy it to rent out for cash flow. But renting out a place is just not that easy.

Being a landlord is actually quite challenging if you are inexperienced. People think being a landlord is easy, until that day they have to hire a bailiff to evict someone.

Sometime's you're lucky. But most people have to learn the hard way until they become more experienced and have a proper system in place.

[LiquidTurbo]

lol.. "prices are stabilizing"

Vancouver housing prices stabilizing

[subordinate]

Originally Posted by LiquidTurbo

lol.. "prices are stabilizing"

Vancouver housing prices stabilizing

Lol, one month, stabilized!

[westopher]

Originally Posted by 4444

when rates increase, those $400K condos get awfully unaffordable

there's no rush, wait out the downward part of this ride and buy at a discount compared to today's prices

yes, kits is a premium area, but $400K for a place that rents for, what, $1500? doesn't make sense, the ownership premium is NOT that great - the capital appreciation upside is basically non existent


wait, be rewarded

if you have money burning a hole in your pocket, invest it in something stable (so you can liquidate when the time is right to buy), diversified (see stable) that pays you to wait (well, you should be paid, right? i know i like to be paid for investing)

life is WAY simpler than ppl make it out to be!

Thanks for the advice, we (me and my wife) actually already discussed jumping on something here isn't a reasonable idea. I already own real estate elsewhere in Canada, and have renters, and until it makes sense to sell there and buy here I'm not likely to buy here. My renters are out in october, so I have a while to see what the market does. The area I own in has a retardedly low vacancy rate, and is quite stable, at least for the time being, so the looking is more of a curiosity at the moment.

[LiquidTurbo]

Originally Posted by 4444

i'll try to keep this quick, as we've been over this before

canada, overall, is overpriced, especially vancouver & toronto - you don't buy now, you wait. it will get better, you know in 2000, you could buy almost anything, rent it out and cash flow fine - that was only 13 years ago - these prices are a short term blip. yes, west van, kits, downtown, will be a slight premium as they are demand areas, but overall prices have a long way to come down


if you want to invest in real estate (when the time is right), pick the right properties in the right neighbourhoods in the right cities, simple as that - you need to know what you're doing, it's not just buy, rent, and profit, it may seem like that when you watch HGTV, but as a real estate investor, it takes a LOT of research, analysis, etc.

the payoff can be great, but you need to manage your risk and get your timing better than not.

I share the same sentiment as you, and I was out for dinner a few nights ago w/ friends where I got into a heated discussion with a friend (who just bought a 400k box of course)

"Where's the proof, how do you explain it?"


What do you say to something like that.

[4444]

Originally Posted by westopher

Thanks for the advice, we (me and my wife) actually already discussed jumping on something here isn't a reasonable idea. I already own real estate elsewhere in Canada, and have renters, and until it makes sense to sell there and buy here I'm not likely to buy here. My renters are out in october, so I have a while to see what the market does. The area I own in has a retardedly low vacancy rate, and is quite stable, at least for the time being, so the looking is more of a curiosity at the moment.

Based on having no knowledge of ur situation, here's what I'd do -

Don't ever sell ur rental (unless the maintenance on it gets stupid expensive, but assuming a reasonably well keep place), overtime, rents will go up, so as long as ur cash positive/net income before depreciation, keep it rolling along, especially as its In a low vacancy area.

When u sell u will incur stupid high realtor fees and other selling costs, and will pay tax on any gains. If its mortgaged, you will have to pay to break the mortgage (something I don't agree with, not the way in the US, under most mortgages)

So, if u have equity in the place, I'd just use the equity in that place to buy here when the time is right - assuming Vancouver price falls will outpace ur rental price decrease, u will be Better off doing this.

Now, I don't want u thinking I advise the "buy a place, then buy another, and another using more and more debt" - not at all, but u have a cash flowing/ income generating asset that is illiquid, so assuming the economics of it works, you should just hold onto this asset for life. U can realize the value of this asset later in life by taking mortgages out on it - cheapest money around, mortgages.

I don't ever plan to sell the properties I own, I bought low, they all cash flow very well, and I don't have to do anything ever now to make that same money every month for the rest of my life - when I retire, if I want to enjoy the capital,I'll just mortgage them to realize 80% of that value and blow that money before I die - the rent will still make it cash positive. This only works when you don't "buy high", to me real estate is all about cash flows, buy low, sell never, unless there is a huge run up in price, I.e. US during 2000's or Canada of late - but these are hard to time, and real estate is illiquid, slow to move, and it's hard to find good real estate investments.

Just my opinions, but if it helps u out, good stuff

[4444]

Originally Posted by LiquidTurbo

I share the same sentiment as you, and I was out for dinner a few nights ago w/ friends where I got into a heated discussion with a friend (who just bought a 400k box of course)

"Where's the proof, how do you explain it?"


What do you say to something like that.

Proof = simple economics and finance (which most people, especially those buying $400k boxes don't understand)

Explain = well, we all could, but they'd just butt in and interject with stupid comments....

Talking real estate is like talking religion, I don't believe in God, there is no proof - but others do believe in a God, with faith as their support for it - I couldn't and wouldn't want to try to argue religion with someone, as their belief is not based on proof (and I respect that), but thing is with real estate, investing on belief will end up losing u tits loads of moola! That, I don't respect

But just remember, without stupid people, it would be more difficult for people like me to make investments at under fair value when markets over correct, as will happen here in the coming years

Just let ur idiot friend enjoy his expensive shit hole, you can buy the same one soon for $250k

[dasani604]

I have to say, 4444 you bring good value to RS

[Ludepower]

The numbers just dont add up yet we have so many people believing its normal to pay 350k+ for a condo with an average yearly income of 60k.

[4444]

Originally Posted by Ludepower

The numbers just dont add up yet we have so many people believing its normal to pay 350k+ for a condo with an average yearly income of 60k.

Zillow has a good interactive article about average affordability (percentage of income to own a home) and price/income multiple, by city across the US, over time... Really interesting to see just how out of whack Vancouver/Toronto are

[iEatClams]

Basically everyone thinks the RE market is going down. . . . except for Realtors (royal lepage) or economists like cameron muir who works for the real estate guys and have a vested interest for real estate to do well.

[LiquidTurbo]

^ fantastic.

[semin]

Originally Posted by Ludepower

The numbers just dont add up yet we have so many people believing its normal to pay 350k+ for a condo with an average yearly income of 60k.

If your priorities are to save money and date regular women and work a 9-5 job, yes, don't purchase.



the social status and circles afforded when you say you live downtown is FAR GREATER than having $$$ stack up in my bank account

[GLOW]

Originally Posted by semin

If your priorities are to save money and date regular women and work a 9-5 job, yes, don't purchase.



the social status and circles afforded when you say you live downtown is FAR GREATER than having $$$ stack up in my bank account

[LiquidTurbo]

Originally Posted by semin

If your priorities are to save money and date regular women and work a 9-5 job, yes, don't purchase.



the social status and circles afforded when you say you live downtown is FAR GREATER than having $$$ stack up in my bank account

How so?

[westopher]

Originally Posted by semin

If your priorities are to save money and date regular women and work a 9-5 job, yes, don't purchase.



the social status and circles afforded when you say you live downtown is FAR GREATER than having $$$ stack up in my bank account

Those two points are completely irrelevant to each other. Don't fool yourself. The worlds elite personalities aren't determined by wether or not they live in downtown van.

[Gridlock]

Originally Posted by iEatClams

Basically everyone thinks the RE market is going down. . . . except for Realtors (royal lepage) or economists like cameron muir who works for the real estate guys and have a vested interest for real estate to do well.

Spoiler!

Well...there you have it folks

After 20 pages of discussion, we have the best of the economists saying its anything from "game on" to "real estate Armageddon"

Now, if we could hold off on anything until after I sell my mom's condo for premium dollar, that would be awesome.

Here's a tip: never buy an age restricted condo with rental restrictions. I could rent out for $400 to $500 positive cash flow every month...but my hands are tied behind my back. So frustrating.

On that front...I would like to say that on my own personal thoughts on real estate these days, from a sellers perspective. I've been going through and making everything just as perfect as I can. My sister has been rolling her eyes at what I want to do, but I've been finishing off all the little things so that its all "move in ready". It may not be automatically to taste, but its all good to go. You absolutely have to these days. Sellers are all in control...so that 0% did at the top of the chart? It's bullshit. I'm up against 4 other condos in the same complex...think there isn't a potential for a race to the bottom?

EDIT:
On that front: realtors...I hate 'em.

Not personally or anything, but as an industry...hate 'em.

How much negotiation room do I have on commission? I have two thoughts here. One, it's a nice condo, and I think its one of the nicer ones in the complex. But, its an older building and that reflects in the value. No realtor(tm) is really going to go out of their way to push it. I know that. They are going to list it on MLS and wait for some other person to sell it for them...and walk away with 1/2 a check for making a phone call that says, "here's the offer. Papers are in my office"

So, is it reasonable for me to either grind them a bit on commission OR, can I have a requirement for at least some type of proactive marketing, ie...an open house a month?

[4444]

Originally Posted by Gridlock

Well...there you have it folks

After 20 pages of discussion, we have the best of the economists saying its anything from "game on" to "real estate Armageddon"

Now, if we could hold off on anything until after I sell my mom's condo for premium dollar, that would be awesome.

Here's a tip: never buy an age restricted condo with rental restrictions. I could rent out for $400 to $500 positive cash flow every month...but my hands are tied behind my back. So frustrating.

On that front...I would like to say that on my own personal thoughts on real estate these days, from a sellers perspective. I've been going through and making everything just as perfect as I can. My sister has been rolling her eyes at what I want to do, but I've been finishing off all the little things so that its all "move in ready". It may not be automatically to taste, but its all good to go. You absolutely have to these days. Sellers are all in control...so that 0% did at the top of the chart? It's bullshit. I'm up against 4 other condos in the same complex...think there isn't a potential for a race to the bottom?

EDIT:
On that front: realtors...I hate 'em.

Not personally or anything, but as an industry...hate 'em.

How much negotiation room do I have on commission? I have two thoughts here. One, it's a nice condo, and I think its one of the nicer ones in the complex. But, its an older building and that reflects in the value. No realtor(tm) is really going to go out of their way to push it. I know that. They are going to list it on MLS and wait for some other person to sell it for them...and walk away with 1/2 a check for making a phone call that says, "here's the offer. Papers are in my office"

So, is it reasonable for me to either grind them a bit on commission OR, can I have a requirement for at least some type of proactive marketing, ie...an open house a month?

Sadly, it was bound to happen - what angers me is the lack of recourse to realtors who lie or stretch the truth to sell you less than ideal real estate (not ur situation, just generally) - I'm a total capitalist, but actually think we should have regulation on the sale of real estate, just as there is for financial securities, maybe just new properties, maybe just to stop brad lamb claiming u can make a 200% ROI over 6 year on a new condo in Toronto

I also completely agree, any restricted real estate will have a discount applied to it, will, by definition, have a smaller market, and inevitably will sell for less, slower, and more painfully.

Having said that, I assume ur mum is still making a gain on this property? And I hope she bought it for less than a comparable, non restricted property

Wrt the realtor, try - I'm sure there are many with no income in the last 3-6 months, call a bunch up, just say "this is what I'll pay, $x to sell for $y to $z, and a percentage for anything above it - can't hurt... Mind u, it might be better to just to a quicker sale

It's is the irony, no realtor ever said the market would get like this - "buy now or buy never" Bullshit!!!!

[Gridlock]

Originally Posted by 4444

Sadly, it was bound to happen - what angers me is the lack of recourse to realtors who lie or stretch the truth to sell you less than ideal real estate (not ur situation, just generally) - I'm a total capitalist, but actually think we should have regulation on the sale of real estate, just as there is for financial securities, maybe just new properties, maybe just to stop brad lamb claiming u can make a 200% ROI over 6 year on a new condo in Toronto

I also completely agree, any restricted real estate will have a discount applied to it, will, by definition, have a smaller market, and inevitably will sell for less, slower, and more painfully.

Having said that, I assume ur mum is still making a gain on this property? And I hope she bought it for less than a comparable, non restricted property

Wrt the realtor, try - I'm sure there are many with no income in the last 3-6 months, call a bunch up, just say "this is what I'll pay, $x to sell for $y to $z, and a percentage for anything above it - can't hurt... Mind u, it might be better to just to a quicker sale

It's is the irony, no realtor ever said the market would get like this - "buy now or buy never" Bullshit!!!!

I don't want to say that my mom was a shrewd real estate investor by any means. But I give her a lot of credit for one thing: she bought a shit hole. It was literally the ugliest fucking place. Two walls in the living room were pale blue, with this textured dark blue shit on top to kind of look like sky(?). Anyway, I sanded the shit out of it to make it somewhat smooth when I painted it for her to live in it, and sanded the shit out of it again yesterday to paint it again. Carpet was crap. Appliances...kitchen...bathroom...everything.

She did the major stuff before moving in(floors and painting) and the rest she picked away at. Time for a new stove. Let's do the dishwasher.

As a result, she 'built' equity as well as accrued equity.

I'm just at the point where, for a listing agent...I just know that no one is going to put it at the top of their pile to promote for a sale, so do I kind of "force" them to put in some work, or cut the commission on them. In turn, they will cut the commission for the buyer's agent, and then THEY won't promote it. I'm leaning towards forcing a few open houses at least to make sure that they work for their money...sounds crude I know, but I work for mine

How do you know you're being fucked by a realtor(tm)? You hired them.

Ironically, my mom was a realtor for awhile, and I read through the books helping her study when I was a kid. Seemed like BS then, and BS now. You tell me how you have a fair and impartial system where you have a listing agent, and a buying agent, all being paid for out of the purchase price negotiated for a home. So my buying agent gets a percentage of the price that I negotiate for the buy. So, you aren't going to have a slight interest in that price being 400k and not 300k? And y'all work for the same umbrella organization? That trademark dude....gives a LOT away.

Oh, and ps...I was 12 and read through your training manuals. And understood it. Don't tell me its some dark fucking science. And sadly...you do need to be a certain type of person to be able to do it...which my mom was not. The successful ones all seem to be pushy and cheezy...my mom tried being blunt and honest. I think she sold one house. They *really* liked her though, and became friends.

Anyone know what the average commission structure looks like these days?

[StutteR_]

Anyone know what the average commission structure looks like these days?

It's usually 2-3% on the first $100,000 and 4-5% on the remaining balance.

Unless you are part of 1% realty.

[Gridlock]

Originally Posted by StutteR_

Anyone know what the average commission structure looks like these days?

It's usually 2-3% on the first $100,000 and 4-5% on the remaining balance.

Unless you are part of 1% realty.

Interesting.

I found this(from my quick googlin')

How Real Estate Commissions WorkYoung And Thrifty

According to random internet dude, he's seeing 7% on the first 100 and 3.5 on the remaining. And of course, your buying agent doesn't want to show you 1% realty houses.

So...I have 4 condos in the complex that are for sale(we'll be #5) Ours is the nicest. If I drop the commission down, they are going to "promote" the value of the other condos in comparison aren't they?

[4444]

Originally Posted by Gridlock

Interesting.

I found this(from my quick googlin')

How Real Estate Commissions WorkYoung And Thrifty

According to random internet dude, he's seeing 7% on the first 100 and 3.5 on the remaining. And of course, your buying agent doesn't want to show you 1% realty houses.

So...I have 4 condos in the complex that are for sale(we'll be #5) Ours is the nicest. If I drop the commission down, they are going to "promote" the value of the other condos in comparison aren't they?

That would make sense from a fundamental work/reward thought, but having said that I think many realtors would take any sale right now

If hrs is the nicest, just put for sale at the same as the other units, I would hope that any realtor coming to the property would show all units for sale, as us is by far the nicest, would sell first in ur building - u've done everything to make it go quickest, unfortunately the market dictates how much it goes for... U've done all u can