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Vancouver Off-Topic / Current EventsThe off-topic forum for Vancouver, funnies, non-auto centered discussions, WORK SAFE. While the rules are more relaxed here, there are still rules. Please refer to sticky thread in this forum.
Oh great, so we've restored to a Whalley shoebox as examples of affordable housing. See guys there's nothing wrong with housing costs if you don't mind living in the ghetto. You'll even live a healthier lifestyle with all the cardio you'll get while you're being chased by crackheads!
To be fair, much of East Van was a ghetto in the late 1980s and early 1990s. There were dilapidated crack shacks on my block growing up.
My realtor friend told me that a lot of homes in Vancouver aren't going into multiple offers and prices for older homes have flatlined in the last couple of months. Kinda figured eventually that prices for older homes in Vancouver would slow but lets see what prices are in the next few months.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tapioca
The average family income for people looking to buy today in Burnaby should not be 80K/year. It should be more like 130K. 2 young professionals - a junior engineer and a bank branch manager, for example. Based on a 10% down payment, that 550K 2 bed/2 bath condo at Tandem, OMA, Perspectives, Brentwood Gate, or Watercolours will cost about 2230 in mortgage payments per month. Combined with a strata fees of about $330 and a property tax bill of $200 per month, you're looking at about $2760 for housing costs.
That perfectly proves the point. Not everyone is a pair of engineers and bank managers. By simple math, these jobs are in the top 10% of earners (this is a total guess but I'd say fairly pessimistic, they could be even higher based on what we see with average incomes) to buy a fairly basic home and have room to raise a child.
Is that what entitlement looks like? That example is a pair of what would be considered very skilled people, considering for every bank manager, there are 20 relatively skilled people below them. Yeah you don't need to be a genius to be a teller, but you aren't pumping gas either.
There is no entitlement to thinking you can live a normal life in the city you choose to live in. This isn't a third world country, our citizens should have some sense of opportunity, and the possibility of "moving up a class" through hard work and dedication. Thats not really a thing anymore. Middle class people don't get rich. Poor people don't reach the middle class. The ability to do that is what sold immigrants on coming here, and its no longer a reality.
So if this pair of what should be considered elite can barely get into a starter home, where are the other 10 couples(or even harder, singles) below them supposed to live. We will reach(and I promise we already have) a point where unskilled workers in the city will cease to exist. People of all economic groups are required to have cities function the way they do, like it or not.
This problem goes far beyond the real estate market here, the real estate market is just a perfect visual of the problem of income inequality that faces canada. More money ending up in less hands, means the control of those with it are becoming exponentially higher. Its a fundamental flaw in unregulated capitalism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid_o2
A newish 2 bed 2 bath condo along Lougheed Highway in Burnaby or in the Metrotown area (since the person doesn't have a car and will take Skytrain to work) is $500k to $700k in price right now. Those are asking prices. The average double income family in Burnaby right now earns $79,500. Are you saying that people should be paying 6 to 10 times their annual income to own a 750 SF condo? And should they be having to save up $100,000 down payment to afford this condo? How many couples are able to save that much money in a normal amount of time?
Nobody is talking about entitlement. A person doesn't need a house in Point Grey overlooking the water, or even a 2 bed condo in Yaletown with views of Granville Island. But if we are talking about what every municipality preaches, which is a proper live/work lifestyle with sustainable communities, economic sustainability is a major factor. A couple making $100,000 combined shouldn't have to worry about standing in line overnight with thousands of other people to try and score a 2 bedroom condo in somewhat close proximity to transit without compromising their future.
$800 or $1000 a square foot condos don't make sense. Not for a standard new build condo. $150,000 condo down payments don't make sense. Not when people's incomes don't come even close to being able to afford it.
It still blows my mind that there are people around that are deniers. It's like arguing with anti-vaccinators.
Lots of great posts from you Liquid_o2
Just quoting because it perfectly sums up ECONOMIC SUSTAINABILITY, which is what Vancouver lacks. You can't have a city where suddenly just everyone becomes a fucking millionaire and everything is great and this magical utopia of rich people.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boostfever
Westopher is correct.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fsy82
seems like you got a dick up your ass well..get that checked
Quote:
Originally Posted by punkwax
Well.. I’d hate to be the first to say it, but Westopher is correct.
That perfectly proves the point. Not everyone is a pair of engineers and bank managers. By simple math, these jobs are in the top 10% of earners (this is a total guess but I'd say fairly pessimistic, they could be even higher based on what we see with average incomes) to buy a fairly basic home and have room to raise a child.
Is that what entitlement looks like? That example is a pair of what would be considered very skilled people, considering for every bank manager, there are 20 relatively skilled people below them. Yeah you don't need to be a genius to be a teller, but you aren't pumping gas either.
There is no entitlement to thinking you can live a normal life in the city you choose to live in. This isn't a third world country, our citizens should have some sense of opportunity, and the possibility of "moving up a class" through hard work and dedication. Thats not really a thing anymore. Middle class people don't get rich. Poor people don't reach the middle class. The ability to do that is what sold immigrants on coming here, and its no longer a reality.
So if this pair of what should be considered elite can barely get into a starter home, where are the other 10 couples(or even harder, singles) below them supposed to live. We will reach(and I promise we already have) a point where unskilled workers in the city will cease to exist. People of all economic groups are required to have cities function the way they do, like it or not.
This problem goes far beyond the real estate market here, the real estate market is just a perfect visual of the problem of income inequality that faces canada. More money ending up in less hands, means the control of those with it are becoming exponentially higher. Its a fundamental flaw in unregulated capitalism.
I don't disagree with your observations. The middle class, as we know it in North America, is eroding. The gap between the rich and poor is widening and while Canada has a larger social safety net than the United States, it's inadequate in Canada's two major cities.
I don't know what the solution is, to be quite frank.
to be fair though, that house is on a HUGE lot, in prime west side. Historically speaking, that is where the doctors and lawyers would live.
yes, I get your point, this is just not as good an example as it could've been.
My house would be a prime example though .. 1 bedroom, 1 bathroom bungalow unfinished basement on the east side ... probably pushing 1.7 or 1.8mil now ...
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My point is there is no way a doctor and lawyer as a couple could even afford that home. I'm aware that's where historically they live, but in this market, not even they can unless their parents want to give them a cool mil. That's fucking genuinely insane.
Also, its hardly a HUGE lot. Its just that a stupid house that extends to every property line hasn't been built on it yet.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boostfever
Westopher is correct.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fsy82
seems like you got a dick up your ass well..get that checked
Quote:
Originally Posted by punkwax
Well.. I’d hate to be the first to say it, but Westopher is correct.
Beijing has been named the most expensive global city to rent in by a report from a U.K. based organization surveying 15 global cities. They found that in Beijing, average rental prices are more than 1.2 times average salaries.
Nearly all asset classes are currently inflated IMO, the only exception being bonds, the bond market is going to fucking EXPLODE at the first real sign of economic turmoil.
There will be many deals to be had on Porsches and houses, I think I'll buy both. Maybe Vancouver is super duper special and won't be impacted, and that's okay, I'll just buy something in Palm Springs CA to get my retirement wheels in motion.
Vancouver RE is race horse, ride your winning horse as hard as you can, once he gets hurt nobody wants him, you send him to the glue factory.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonturbo
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why live in brisbane when you can bum around Whistler all year long.
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She knows her kids are going to be OK. I know I'm going to be OK. But what does that have to do with an out of whack housing market, where a house 45 minutes from downtown Vancouver now costs 12x the average household income?
People can make all the references they want, and all the excuses in the world. No matter how this plays out over the next 3 to 5 years, whether the prices correct or no, this isn't going to end well for Metro Vancouver.
My post was directed at your neighbor's parents, and a sentiment shared by many boomer aged parents. Housing market is out of whack for sure, but a lot of the outrage being voiced right now is by those who feel they SHOULD be able to buy a certain home in a certain area because of this reason or that reason. Hey, I used to be like that too when I was younger and more naive; got all angry. Then you realize that you really have no control over the system and you either work harder or alter your expectations of what you want. This is an issue that reaches far beyond Metro Vancouver, any major correction that could make things affordable will have far reaching consequences for the entire country.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid_o2
A newish 2 bed 2 bath condo along Lougheed Highway in Burnaby or in the Metrotown area (since the person doesn't have a car and will take Skytrain to work) is $500k to $700k in price right now. Those are asking prices. The average double income family in Burnaby right now earns $79,500. Are you saying that people should be paying 6 to 10 times their annual income to own a 750 SF condo? And should they be having to save up $100,000 down payment to afford this condo? How many couples are able to save that much money in a normal amount of time?
Nobody is talking about entitlement. A person doesn't need a house in Point Grey overlooking the water, or even a 2 bed condo in Yaletown with views of Granville Island. But if we are talking about what every municipality preaches, which is a proper live/work lifestyle with sustainable communities, economic sustainability is a major factor. A couple making $100,000 combined shouldn't have to worry about standing in line overnight with thousands of other people to try and score a 2 bedroom condo in somewhat close proximity to transit without compromising their future.
$800 or $1000 a square foot condos don't make sense. Not for a standard new build condo. $150,000 condo down payments don't make sense. Not when people's incomes don't come even close to being able to afford it.
It still blows my mind that there are people around that are deniers. It's like arguing with anti-vaccinators.
Why are we talking about new builds or newish builds then? Plenty of units available 10-20yo at more than reasonable prices in good areas for 300-400k, even less, easily affordable for a couple making a very average salary and even for a single. Oh right, the horror of living in a used condo, I need brand new with fancy finshings. If you still can't afford it, look for something with 1 bath instead of 2. Oh noes, but no 2 bathrooms?!? Maybe entitlement was the wrong word, or maybe not?
Once again I'm not denying that the market right now is over priced, but sounds like you are denying that people are buying/bitching based more on wants than needs
Quote:
Originally Posted by westopher
My point is there is no way a doctor and lawyer as a couple could even afford that home. I'm aware that's where historically they live, but in this market, not even they can unless their parents want to give them a cool mil. That's fucking genuinely insane.
Also, its hardly a HUGE lot. Its just that a stupid house that extends to every property line hasn't been built on it yet.
Yes , traditionally that's an area for the elite. But in keeping with sustainable communities etc, as the population moves to more affordable areas of the cities, shouldn't the doctors and lawyers follow along? Surrey, Langley, Maple Ridge, Abbotsford will all need those professionals and services, and you can't tell me even if a doc or lawyer could afford it, they would enjoy or even want to commute from Kerrisdale to Abbotsford every day. Extreme example I know, but no more extreme than the example property you posted.
Why are we talking about new builds or newish builds then? Plenty of units available 10-20yo at more than reasonable prices in good areas for 300-400k, even less, easily affordable for a couple making a very average salary and even for a single. Oh right, the horror of living in a used condo, I need brand new with fancy finshings. If you still can't afford it, look for something with 1 bath instead of 2. Oh noes, but no 2 bathrooms?!? Maybe entitlement was the wrong word, or maybe not.
How can people possibly raise a family without stainless appliances?
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Brisbane isn't really a fair comparison, Sydney is a more direct one and their housing prices are very comparable to Vancouver.
I'm one of the "lucky" ones who bought a townhouse 5 years ago. At the time, I was debating whether to buy a tear-down house, or a livable townhouse. The house was about 20%-30% more at the time, but would need at least $100K of renovations. I went for the townhouse because I wanted to save some income for RRSPs/TFSAs, and also because my wife didn't want to deal with the hassle of rennos.
Fast forward 5 years, I do have some regret about not buying a house. Now the prices are 100% more than a townhouse and it seems like the gap is now too large for me to ever upgrade.
I think there is definitely some entitlement for those that have grown up in Vancouver. It's easy to compare your situation to what your parents had, or with other cities (e.g. Seattle) and ask, "why can't I afford a house, there should be housing price controls, etc".
For my family, we've just learned to accept reality. I know plenty of doctors that are living in townhouses; it's just the reality of living in the lower mainland unless you bought in at the right time or are powered by parents.
How can people possibly raise a family without stainless appliances?
stainless for peasants, built in is best appliance
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Housing market is out of whack for sure, but a lot of the outrage being voiced right now is by those who feel they SHOULD be able to buy a certain home in a certain area because of this reason or that reason. Hey, I used to be like that too when I was younger and more naive; got all angry. Then you realize that you really have no control over the system and you either work harder or alter your expectations of what you want. This is an issue that reaches far beyond Metro Vancouver, any major correction that could make things affordable will have far reaching consequences for the entire country.
I'd have to disagree with this.
To a large extent, we all choose how we react to external forces and conditions. You took a "pragmatic" approach by either working harder or altering your own expectations to accept the given conditions. I do not blame you for that. I used to be like that too -- just accept the conditions and figure out my best route to steer around it the best I can.
But as I got older, I begin to reconsider that approach and way of doing things. It is not true that we have no control over the system -- at least here in Canada. Flawed as it may be, we still operate on a democratic system where our voices and public pressure matters. We cannot change how much foreign money gets generated, but we can change how much of it gets into our market. This foreign hot $$$ didn't just start flowing a year or 2 ago -- it has been a steady phenomenon for the better part of 10+ years. There has always been voices claiming how this unrelenting price increase is unsustainable, but for the past year or so, I am glad we are finally seeing this view and discussions becoming widely talked about at a mainstream level with regular frequency. I personally attribute this to what you have labelled as "bitching", but if everyone just took the "pragmatic" approach as you did, there wouldn't have been enough noise and pressure generated, and the affordability situation would only worsen.
I couldn't possibly have worded it better than Westopher and Liquid_o2, so I won't repeat what they've already said. The fact of the matter is, the current course for RE in Vancouver is unsustainable. If you just sit back and let the market proceed on its own runaway course, regular societal factors are already going to give you far reaching consequences for the region (and possibly the country). In this case, I'd much rather see ourselves attempt a few things, and maybe in our collective wisdom, some of those action could steer us away from absolute disaster.
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