:rolleyes:
Wow dude, way to go nuts over one tiny example (which has a backstory from my previous tenancy that's too long winded to get into here). There's OBVIOUSLY a lot more to it than that. The thing is, everyone's going to have their own perceptions of what is valuable to them.
You value financial freedom to pack up and move whenever you want, I get it, good forr youuuuu. I don't need that particular freedom anymore, I hate moving, I'd rather be stable where I am.

I rented for 6 years. I had very good landlords (not a single rent raise either in those 6 years) but shitty neighboring tenants. I learned that co-habitation is just not for me.

I agree that there are a lot of people are overextending themselves for over-valued property. Personally, I'm not worried, because I have a brain. I'm not one of those 5% down - 80% income to mortgage people, I bought well within my affordability.

Then ur problem was living with other ppl, not rent vs own.

I, too,hate other people, that's why I would never own a condo or townhouse to live in - renting them means you can move at a whim

You and others on RS may think this is the "worst thread" because it has yet to go down the path of pathetic personal digs, arguments, and the same four memes. Unlike most threads on this site, it is full of useful, intelligent, and thought provoking conversation. What you see as "doom and gloom" is, in reality, a realistic debate about a topic relevant to many of the adults that are members of this site.

Should you choose to engage in some of the intellectual rhetoric, I would suggest you come up with some facts instead of suggesting that an entire condo building has sold because you see that almost all the lights are on....or some ridiculous rental numbers which just proves how inflated the market is. Although, you should know I think your numbers are full of shit. Let us know how that new condo purchase downtown works out for your "portfolio"....I'm sure you will be able to retire early from its return :thumbsup:

Keep up that doom and gloom mentality. Like I said, go back 3, 5, 10 pages and all the posts you see are the majority of your own posts. :speechless:
edit: 2005 is almost 10 years ago. That was before Facebook took over our lives. You act like 2005 was 2 years ago.

edit:Thank you for the grammar correction. I felt something was wrong with that sentence. I couldn't put my finger on it. But I have to disagree, the lack of personal insults is not what makes this thread the worst. But I have been told, I have "herd" mentality.



Great68 hit it bang on. Everyone is going to have their own perception of what is valuable to them. :thumbsup:

inb4 someone posts another article about the Vancouver real-estate market and some RS expert says its a puff piece by real-estate agents in order to keep the market up. :fullofwin:

Personally, in terms of lifestyle I would rather own a house than rent it because I think the pure concept is to have it be "yours" to do with as you please.

In terms of a condo...IF prices are increasing, then sure, buy up and be part of the wave but at a time like this, I'd rent. There is no difference. Sure, when you own the place you can paint and make changes...but usually you are limited to putting in laminate flooring and painting. I've occasionally opened up walls for people and mounted tv/entertainment systems.

Yippee.

I'm with you! I find realtors(TM) to be a fair and impartial representative of the real estate market(TM). There is no reason whatsoever that they would have to put a spin on anything. No one has ever done anything not in your best interest for the sake of commission.

Oh, sorry...funny thing I read the other day that uh, realtors lie! There is a guy named Ross kay that has been auditing the data and found that the private sales that are now listed in MLS data are being counted in 2013 numbers, which improves the sales outlook as they weren't included in 2012 numbers.

Did you know that CMHC doesn't use MLS data? Wonder why that is?
We have a system where a private company is in charge of the entire transaction.

Oh, its wonderful when you have one as a buyers agent. They look all spiffy, and drive you around in the leased lex.

They can be pricks on a sale. I had one guy walk around with his nose out of joint telling me it won't go for a dollar over x amount. List it and dump it.

Why? Because the big portion of commission is made on speed. Dump it low enough to make it sell fast. BTW...sold it for more than he was going to list it...list! let alone people negotiating down.

I think most of us can appreciate a realistic discussion about real estate in this corner of the world.

However, many here were not lucky enough to get their degrees/education at low tuition rates and rode the good economy of the late 90s and early 2000s. I have friends who by circumstance were able to ride the property wave because they got lucrative jobs a few years ahead of the rest of us. I can understand that we all have to make decisions with our professional development in mind, but when you're debt free and you make a reasonable salary, but can't save money, then what do you do?

Unless you live at home for 15 years, you're not saving any money by renting unless you live with a bunch of people and in some shithole way out in the sticks. A one-bedroom apartment in a decent location is 1200. You would probably pay close to $1600 for the same apartment if you were to own it.

Let's do the math. You save $400/month, but do you really save that $400 per month? How many people are discplined enough to save that money? How many people are savvy investors and can make 5-8% on that $5000 every year? You have freedom to leave anytime which can be great, but how many people have the skills and connections to make it big in another city? Alberta may be a great draw for those in the energy industry, but other than that, the economy in other parts of Canads is mediocre. How many people are so valuable that a Fortune 500 company would be willing to sponsor them over some local in London, HK, or any other international city? Not many, I'm afraid. (Though some here are exceptional.)

I think it's a bad time to buy property now and there's definitely not a lot of money to be made (if any) by flipping properties today. However, owning real estate accomplishes two things: a roof over your head and savings. For some, real estate is the only way they can save some money (even if they lose some of those savings in the short term).
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I feel like puking and curling up in my bed. It's like I'm doomed to mediocrity no matter what I do.

^^ Excellent post!

My only fear on that is the people that end up bringing a check to closing. That bites.

Yeah, paying more to live there per month may or may not be a concern for people. I think we can all recognize that.

I read a case on a blog of a girl that rented a place downtown. It was close to work and friends and what have you. But everyone said, "you need to be an owner" so she bought a condo in New West. It was close to skytrain and she gained the gift of a commute!

So she's paying a premium to own in a place where she doesn't want to be.

Then she looks at what others are selling for and shocker! It isn't up. Does she stay in a place that isn't convenient, and has her paying for transit or a car to live there, or does she crash out, recognize the loss and realize that for her, she managed to lose money in real estate in Vancouver?

In condos, you are buying a product. Someone has decided how many square feet should be optimal for the lifestyle in which you are buying.

I was looking in the Trapp Block showhome here in NW and I'm looking at the "junior" 1 bedroom realizing its in the high 2's, the bedroom doesn't have a window to the outside, I'm walking on laminate, which I'll tell you even the high end laminate is still compressed sawdust with a picture and they can't even give me fullsize cabinets. No, now we put uppers on the bottom in the kitchen on the back wall to utilize that extra 4" of space.

Now usually I'd be getting pounded with e-mails from them because thats what you do when you try to sell shit but as the girl working there couldn't be bothered to even fucking smile in my direction, I'm going to go ahead and assume that they are having no problems selling these wonders out, even though that showhome sales center has been going for over a year.

Also for the age a lot of us on this forum reading this thread, in our 'adult' lives we have only experienced a world of low interest rates and increasing real estate value, many of us have never experienced a market correction or "normal" interest rates.

From reading the GreaterFool.ca, this quote stood out for me:

Are u expecting the largest asset class for Canadians to change value overnight? Look back 10 pages, I was saying the same thing, does that mean I'm wrong? Not at all, just means that I held the same thoughts then as I do now.

Now, you have actually proven my point, by saying 2005 was 10 years ago... Well it was 8, but what's a 20% error between friends. The point is this:

In 2005, (since post 2001 crash) money was cheap and easy, so by 2005, 2006, 2007 (oh, only 6 years ago now, much closer to today) people were getting fat as fuck on it, buying big houses, cheap shit to put in it, second houses, third cars, woohoo, can't lose!

Then they did, it all fell down. Not because of anything other than stupidity on the part of people - ppl not living within their means, people taking on debt that they can't cover in the long run.

So, how does that apply to today? Well Canada, while not immune, didn't experience the crash in the same way, our economy is way different to the US, for one, we're a huge commodities economy, and post 2008, commodities spiked and stayed high because of Chinese demand (thank god for controlled economies like theirs), that and we all of a sudden jumped in and made money stupid cheap and stupid easy - so we're all good, phew, we avoided that one...

Oh wait, no, we just kicked the can down the road. Commodities, not even low, but lower now, and boom our commodity sector (mining) is dead, their costs are high (inflation brought on by cheap money), assets bought within the last 5 years are being written down (hint: this is an anology to housing) jobs aren't being created, those that be realize that the average idiot is thinking with their 'today' hat, not their long term hat, I.e. you, thinking about buying another downtown condo (you said it) which, without capital appreciation, can't pay off - that's not an investment, that's a gamble.

So, back to my 2005 comment, at the height of stupidity, it took 3-4 years until prices plummeted, and plummeted they did. Come 2011 (shit, just 2 years ago, fuck, now we're getting close) and I'm in the states buying beautiful homes, on nice plots, less than 7 years old, in nice neibourhoods, for literally 30-40 cents on the dollar, and while I wait (up 50-60% already), I get a 8-10% yield - but, damn, I have to deal with property managers... Real nuisance (sarcasm)

The whole point of this ramble is this - IT TAKES A LONG FUCKING TIME FOR THINGS IN THE REAL ESTATE WORLD TO TURN! IT MAY TAKE ANOTHER YEAR OR TWO BEFORE THINGS TURN, BUT WHEN THEY TURN, THEY'LL TURN QUICKLY AND NASTILY. So stop coming in here thinking that because I said the same thing 10 pages ago (probably 3 months ago?) that I'm some fucking retard who has blinkers on and can't see the forest from the trees.

That's all.

And please don't respond to this, I have nothing more to discuss with you as you're not actually bringing any good facts, figures, discussion, or analysis

Anyone else is welcome to question my stance, bring up issue with what I've said, because I'll happily take good discussion into consideration, and provide rebuttal accordingly

Ironically, it's only Canada, Australia (another commodities country that is unravelling), London, New York, (basically all the major cities - and no, Vancouver isn't anywhere near being a speck on that list), in the developed world that haven't been crushed in their real estate markets in recent years - yet ppl can't see that, they can't see that Florida waterfront condos that were selling for $500k in 2007 are still empty, that big developments can't pay their bills because they're left empty with no one paying the strata

Vancouver doesn't have the economic or net immigrant numbers to support a level of housing this far above fundamentals, and if you think this is a Canada wide issue, then clearly it's a systematic issue (I.e. government induced)

I'm just glad my family are secure with solid equity, maybe that's what comes from being conservative and living well within your means.

And to anyone who thinks I'm all talk, I could afford my condo easily, I choose to rent, this is a full choice, not a monetary restriction

There is a lot of product out there, but most new construction is crap, so why buy new?

Living downtown is great when you're single, but if you want to build something like a family, you inevitably have to move for more space - whether it be a 2-bedroom, townhouse, or detached. I went through the same discussion myself and it was tough. However, do you keep putting 1300-1400 into a rental, or do I put 1650 into a place in a near-suburb and have some equity leftover when all is said and done?

Owning property is definitely not for everyone, but it is still a tried-and-true way to build wealth even if it requires more sacrifices than in years past. It's easy for a lot of people to say that we're all suckers for buying RE in Vancouver past the year 2000, but on the other hand, we were not born in the 1970s and had 10 years before the property boom to work, build careers, build a diversified portfolio, etc. Not everyone is cut out to be a day trader.

Not trying to sound bitter or anything, but one can't underestimate the importance of timing and luck.
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The old adage of putting your money into a house is a guaranteed way of saving money is no longer applicable in today's economy and how the world does business. Back when boomers bought homes, a house would only cost them 3-4x the annual salary, which was really affordable. Nowadays, it's way beyond that and salaries haven't really gone up to match it. Back then, people stayed in one career, maybe moved to another company or two and then retired, all staying in the same area. Now, many people relocate to find better opportunities and open new doors this way.

I will say this, yes, you need to be skilled to have a company sponsor you over a local, but you also need to show that you are willing to move out of your comfort zone, to a new place and to a new work environment. It was crazy, once I relocated out east, companies were asking me monthly if I was willing to move to Stockholm, NYC, LA, to work for them. I'm not the most skilled guy in my line of work, but so many people aren't willing to move.

My issue with what you wrote, is when you said some people can only save money in real estate. I always hated the "forced savings" routine with real estate. Yeah, you're forced to because the bank will rip you a new one if you didn't keep up with payments. What young people today need to realize is that real estate is only one option of investment options and that if you can't save money properly, renting or owning, then you need to educate yourself on maintaining a proper budget. You say you can't time a market. No you can't, but it's much easier to get out on most other investment options than in real estate. To me, owning a home and living in it, is just shelter...not an investment.

My job is in a niche line of work and while I'm a good talker, communicator, I can't imagine that my skill set would garner me much more than 20-30% in another city. I already make an above-average salary in Vancouver, but it's just that my money doesn't go as far. There are some cities that would be less expensive to live (perhaps Calgary, or Regina), but any desirable world-class city is just going to be as expensive or more to live. If you move, you might as well move to a more desirable city because what would be the point?

Everyone needs shelter, but unless you're willing to live in a room, it's more than just shelter to most people. Yes, that's a lousy way to think from a rational-investor point of view, but it's nice to come home to a decent place. I provided a very real scenario for a yuppie in Vancouver. You either pay $1300-1400 for a 10+ year old 1-bedroom, or you maybe pay $800-900/month for a shared 2-bedroom unit. You can save a bit if you rent in New West, or Surrey, but you have to pay for transportation which wipes out those savings. You may save $300-500 a month, but unless you pick the right company, you can't exactly turn your savings into riches. Investing may be easy to some here, but to others who neither have the risk tolerance nor the discipline to learn how to earn 10-20% year over year on their investments, forced savings are better than nothing.
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This is easily one of the better threads on RS, not the "worse". It's nice to see the bulls and bears come out to play.

Yeah, but your parents would have known about it and by extension, you. I was only a kid but I still remember the 8 year downturn period in the 90s.

You'd be surprised at how much some places scale their pay according to their locale. However, again, varies by industry and I can't argue with what you said. Everyone's idea of a desirable city is different and we all have our own priorities.

You don't need to be earning 10-20% YOY to have a decent retirement, nor do you need to be an expert investor to make a decent 7-8% averaged return. I have qualms when someone tells me they don't have the risk tolerance to common investment vehicles such as equities, ETFs, bonds, etc, but have no problem putting a crap ton of money on a property. It's seems to common that housing is a sure-fire way of getting wealthier and building a nest-egg and that housing is low risk. It sure as hell isn't. Being able to save $300-500 a month is nothing to sneeze at, compound interest is powerful thing, and even putting it in something with not too much return for a rainy day fund is smart.

I have a rental property with a good flow of cash coming from it, but it is probably my riskiest investment out of my portfolio and required as much, if not more, of my due diligence and research before getting involved with it.

My issue with Vancouver in general (I left in 2012), is that everyone felt like they had to own a place, regardless if financially it didn't make sense. I can see why, because owning your home brings on emotions and attachment. Hey, that's fine, I had my own place in Yaletown and it was great for me, but I bought at a much more affordable time, when it was still sensible for the average worker. The problem is that housing is the largest amount of money that the average person will "invest" in. People also tend ignore the rocky base that the housing market is on and still go all in on a place because it feels great to have your own home.

One more thing to add, not really related to what you posted. I remember someone here mentioned that most people today over-extend themselves on their first home and that nobody seems to want an actual starter home, or thinks long term about where they are going to live. Everyone wants their shiny stainless steel appliances, granite and hardwood, while on a 35-yr mortgage @ 2.85% interest...and then plans on moving to another place in 5 years. My parents waited over 20 years to get any of this and they weren't poor....they just remembered that they had weather some really rough waves in the 80's and 90's and saw friends lose everything during those times.

Welcome to the generation of self-entitled brats, lol!

They want it all and they want it now without any sense of a realistic approach. I see the odd thread/post pop up on RS where some poor schmuck is wanting to buy a NEW place because his gf wants this, that, and the other.

"OMG!! Buy old?! Are you crazy!? You mean....buy a place someone else lived in?? But I don't want carpet! I don't want white appliances!"

This is what is currently fueling the all this new condo development. 20-something self-entitled brats who have no concept of reality....but dig the "new car smell".

There are at least 1/2 a dozen recent posts in the Home & Renovations forum. All asking the same thing, all with the same issues, all with the same delusions of how wonderful and how great of an investment home ownership is. Someone just said it here a few posts ago....why rent for 1300$ when you can OWN for $1650!? "The add in the paper says my mortgage payment will be cheaper than my rent!! WHY RENT WHEN YOU CAN OWN!?"

Because you can't own for $1650....at least not without a substantial down payment. And, imo, why would you sink all your (or, lets face it, your parent's) life savings into an "investment" that has no return currently? Also, while your mortgage may be $1650, there is no accounting for strata or property tax. Bet the $1300/month rent isn't sounding too bad after all.

At the end of the day, it is not about the money, it is about the status. Its the same reason there is a thread in the Auto Chat forum from a guy all fresh and green out of university wanting to drop 80k on a CPO BMW. He may have gone to school to feed his brain full of knowledge, but it doesn't appear he has any.

Many (especially on RS) have the need to impress. Take a general poll of what people SAY their salary is and what is realistically is. Never in my life have I come across a group of people who claim to make damn near 6 figures. I know its a possibility and I know there are some out there that legitimately do...they just don't talk about it. Unfortunately, the latter group are not the ones "investing" in Lower Mainland real estate. Having the former group dropping their pseudo income is a dangerous thing....their realistic salary will not sustain a rise in interest rate and while its all balloons and cookies to lock in for 5 years at a 3% rate, when they renew at 8% they won't be able to afford the payment....cue crash/popping/etc.

I was young once...fresh in my late teens, early 20s wearing my rose-coloured glasses thinking that I would have x, y, z by a certain age. Life is squishy, money is easy, buying shit is fun, but I like to think I got smart fast. This isn't happening today.

This illusion of grandeur is like a fucking contagious disease among most members of RS.

Welcome to the world of 2% interest.

Our parents operated in the world of 20% interest.

You bought a cheap shitty house for the smallest amount of financed money possible because...that financing raped you in your happy place. You fixed it up over time because you could do it for cash, thus avoiding those nasty things in your happy place.

Today in a 2% world, we want it all! We have developers selling us an aspirational brand. Hell, in our parents time(depending on how far off weaning you actually are) the condominium form of ownership either didn't, or barely existed.

This will be the calculation that starts a correction in real estate. Rents are plateaued at a max of 2.2% increase on existing leases. People will start moving out of condos and realizing that they are needing to bring a check to closing, and sooner or later, even the dipshits at Global will have to start talking about it.

This will occur independent of anything to do with the economy, or jobs or weather or mountains or even interest rates. It is purely a supply side issue with over-supplying the marketplace with condos. Their prices are not increasing.

People will start asking, "why did I buy further away from work when I could rent cheaper closer? The promised upside of equity never materialized, and I live in a blah tower next to a random millenium line skytrain station"

Well, I think of anything ever said to either of us, the comment, "well I make more money than you" as an insult has to be the epitome of this. Especially when living at home.

That's a special little shout out to the fan club.

Hehe.

Wicked words eh?

Reference (near the end of my post below):
http://www.revscene.net/forums/68816...ml#post8318718

Hahaha!! That's awesome! Didn't even see that earlier! Great minds think alike, I guess ;)
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