Vancouver's Real Estate Market

[winson604]

Originally Posted by Hondaracer

I walked though the build when it was still under construction as i heard thats where our neighbor bought

I'm always skeptical with an EI builder, which seems to be the case with Seville Row, they kicked me out before i got a close enough look though lol..

Apparently idiot neighbor ended up buying an assignment from somone who had bought on presale and paid some stupid overage as i feel like her realtor was just screwing her.. i'm interested to see the product if i ever get a house warming invite

Lol call me racist but yea I'm always skeptical as well despite the fact the Townhome Development I bought was also an EI developer. Not like I had many great options when it came to Town Home developments though and location, price, square footage etc met what we needed.

Now that I've been in for about 4 months and also on Strata there are definitely issues with the developer. Now I have zero other experiences so I can't say for sure this wouldn't have happened if the developer were White or other. With that said, definitely a bunch of stuff they cheaped out on or didn't even do at all i.e. install peep holes for example. Unfortunately, not doing something is not considered a deficiency and unless it's a safety thing the only way to chase is to sue which may not be worth it. Still, no regrets for me despite all of it. We were able to keep our address in Vancouver, sandwiched right between both my parents and wife's (we have a kid so this is key), sq footage, price, distance from work etc

SUmAznGuy - Feb, March, April who knows lol. Ours was Sept>Oct>Nov>Dec> then ended up finally being end of April lol

[Mr.HappySilp]

^^ I think a lot of developers are pushing the completion date later and later. Maybe this is due to the new housing policy/mortage rate and overstock OR they want to keep supply low to create demand?

My friends pre sale apartment near Lougheed mall was push from Beginning of 2019 to end of 2019 and prolly to 2020.

[Traum]

Originally Posted by winson604

Now that I've been in for about 4 months and also on Strata there are definitely issues with the developer. Now I have zero other experiences so I can't say for sure this wouldn't have happened if the developer were White or other. With that said, definitely a bunch of stuff they cheaped out on or didn't even do at all i.e. install peep holes for example. Unfortunately, not doing something is not considered a deficiency and unless it's a safety thing the only way to chase is to sue which may not be worth it. Still, no regrets for me despite all of it. We were able to keep our address in Vancouver, sandwiched right between both my parents and wife's (we have a kid so this is key), sq footage, price, distance from work etc

In my experience, all the developers that I've had direct or indirect experience with always have deficiencies in the brand new buildings they build, and they always cheap out on stuff one way or another. Some are better than others in addressing them, but they all generally try to avoid bearing any responsibilities.

Remediating all those deficiencies could take anything between persistent calling with a well-presented list of problems / reasons why it is a developer issue, to external engineering reports that pin the responsibility back on the developer, to some sort of legal documents threatening to sue, to actually suing them. Having lived through that bullshxt before, I really wouldn't want to go through it again. It is such a drain on, and infuriating for the home owners and the strata council because you know it is supposed to be the developer's responsibility, but in many cases, they just keep trying to evade that responsibility until you try to sue instead of doing the right thing right from the start.

I'd much rather buy something that is over 2 yrs old so that all the deficiencies have already been taken care of, or if the problem will not be fixed by the developer, at least I know a good strata council can proceed to hire a capable company that will fix it right in a timely manner.

[stump]

Originally Posted by Traum

In my experience, all the developers that I've had direct or indirect experience with always have deficiencies in the brand new buildings they build, and they always cheap out on stuff one way or another. Some are better than others in addressing them, but they all generally try to avoid bearing any responsibilities.

Remediating all those deficiencies could take anything between persistent calling with a well-presented list of problems / reasons why it is a developer issue, to external engineering reports that pin the responsibility back on the developer, to some sort of legal documents threatening to sue, to actually suing them. Having lived through that bullshxt before, I really wouldn't want to go through it again. It is such a drain on, and infuriating for the home owners and the strata council because you know it is supposed to be the developer's responsibility, but in many cases, they just keep trying to evade that responsibility until you try to sue instead of doing the right thing right from the start.

I'd much rather buy something that is over 2 yrs old so that all the deficiencies have already been taken care of, or if the problem will not be fixed by the developer, at least I know a good strata council can proceed to hire a capable company that will fix it right in a timely manner.

My mom just went through this with her condo in Richmond but the extent of the issues didn't show themselves until maybe 7-8 years into the life of the building, well within the warranty period.

Strata had to take the developer to court and sue them for multiple millions of dollars and the strata won a substantial settlement.

Now all the residents have to endure major construction repairs for about 3 years to fix all the deficiencies that the building has thanks to the shitty quality of the initial construction.

I feel bad for her and all the elderly people in the building that have to deal with this shit thanks to all these companies cutting corners.

[Traum]

I hate the fact that developers generally try to evade responsibilities until legal action is threatened, or has actually taken place. In the situations I've experienced before, the faults / responsibilities are generally pretty clear cut. Either the developer fxxked up, or something that is covered by the warranty within the warranty period broke. What is there to argue about? Does the developer really think the strata council will just let them off the hook? Why waste everybody's time and cause all this anguish when they can just own up on the responsibility and go fix the damn thing?

In one of my previous apartments, the public / shared HVAC broke down, and strata have had to threaten suing the developer to get it repaired under warranty. Later on, the cheap boiler (or maybe it was hot water tanks) broke twice. The developer (grudgingly?) helped us fixed it both times. In the end, I think the developer still had the last laugh since the boilers broke down again soon after warranty expired. When strata hired an external boiler company to overhaul the entire system, the external contractor told us that the system we had was an uttery POS, and developers only put it in because it was the cheapest thing they could install. Basically, instead of doing the right job the first time (by installing a good hot water system in the building), they cheap out by getting whatever cheapest piece of crap they can, and then they just ride the warranty period out hoping for the best.

[stump]

Originally Posted by Traum

I hate the fact that developers generally try to evade responsibilities until legal action is threatened, or has actually taken place. In the situations I've experienced before, the faults / responsibilities are generally pretty clear cut. Either the developer fxxked up, or something that is covered by the warranty within the warranty period broke. What is there to argue about? Does the developer really think the strata council will just let them off the hook? Why waste everybody's time and cause all this anguish when they can just own up on the responsibility and go fix the damn thing?

In one of my previous apartments, the public / shared HVAC broke down, and strata have had to threaten suing the developer to get it repaired under warranty. Later on, the cheap boiler (or maybe it was hot water tanks) broke twice. The developer (grudgingly?) helped us fixed it both times. In the end, I think the developer still had the last laugh since the boilers broke down again soon after warranty expired. When strata hired an external boiler company to overhaul the entire system, the external contractor told us that the system we had was an uttery POS, and developers only put it in because it was the cheapest thing they could install. Basically, instead of doing the right job the first time (by installing a good hot water system in the building), they cheap out by getting whatever cheapest piece of crap they can, and then they just ride the warranty period out hoping for the best.

That's exactly it. They use the cheapest product they can possibly find and then hope for the "best". They've probably calculated that it's cheaper for them in the long run to go through some lawsuits instead of using a top quality product in the first place. They should be ashamed of themselves but I doubt they give a shit.

I'm going to ensure that any building I buy in next time or if I can ever build a house, I will never use one of the companies/developers involved in my mom's building. Unfortunately, I bet some of them have new names or been enveloped into other companies and I would have no idea.

[Scotsman]

Unfortunately lowest bid usually wins the job

Of course the quality of the material can be specified so all the bidders are at minimum at that level of material so that's on the developer. If they don't specify then you're only going to get the cheapest.

[originalhypa]

Have you ever watched "Arrested Development"?
Based on first hand knowledge, they're a great example of the families who run these development companies.

For every Marcon who actually cares about putting a good product out there, there are 10 Hayers who couldn't give a damn about post sale support.

[jackmeister]

Originally Posted by Traum

I hate the fact that developers generally try to evade responsibilities until legal action is threatened, or has actually taken place. In the situations I've experienced before, the faults / responsibilities are generally pretty clear cut. Either the developer fxxked up, or something that is covered by the warranty within the warranty period broke. What is there to argue about? Does the developer really think the strata council will just let them off the hook? Why waste everybody's time and cause all this anguish when they can just own up on the responsibility and go fix the damn thing?

In one of my previous apartments, the public / shared HVAC broke down, and strata have had to threaten suing the developer to get it repaired under warranty. Later on, the cheap boiler (or maybe it was hot water tanks) broke twice. The developer (grudgingly?) helped us fixed it both times. In the end, I think the developer still had the last laugh since the boilers broke down again soon after warranty expired. When strata hired an external boiler company to overhaul the entire system, the external contractor told us that the system we had was an uttery POS, and developers only put it in because it was the cheapest thing they could install. Basically, instead of doing the right job the first time (by installing a good hot water system in the building), they cheap out by getting whatever cheapest piece of crap they can, and then they just ride the warranty period out hoping for the best.

Originally Posted by stump

My mom just went through this with her condo in Richmond but the extent of the issues didn't show themselves until maybe 7-8 years into the life of the building, well within the warranty period.

Strata had to take the developer to court and sue them for multiple millions of dollars and the strata won a substantial settlement.

Now all the residents have to endure major construction repairs for about 3 years to fix all the deficiencies that the building has thanks to the shitty quality of the initial construction.

I feel bad for her and all the elderly people in the building that have to deal with this shit thanks to all these companies cutting corners.

I'm curious, are we not allowed to name the actual developers? It would help out a lot and, god-forbid, help them improve their shit ass image.

I have a mental list of developers/buildings to like (based on friends' experiences) and list of bad ones, an example would be that development named after a well known telecommunications company (everyone that i knew that had a place there, had quite a few issues). Everyone's making money from that one though, so

[Traum]

With the developer that I was referring to earlier -- the building with the broken HVAC and crappy hot water system -- I don't actually remember the name of the developer since I bought it second hand. I just knew about the issues because strata kept everyone well-informed of any major situations, and was proactive in getting them resolved.

In another apartment I had -- the Station in Port Moody, the developer was Aragon Properties. IMO, the initial build quality / finishing quality of the building is poor. Among many other issues, the geothermal heating / cooling system they used in the building is awesome when it is working, but the system is also finicky, so reliability is, IMO, a bit low. Maintenance and servicing on the unit are also difficult to find, and expensive when someone is finally available.

Another problem with the building / Aragon was, the initial design of the hot water system was poor. The initial designed somehow allowed / caused water pressure to build up when hot water has not been used for an extended period (eg. overnight). IIRC, this led to 2 occassions where the hot water line bursted, and multiple units on 2 different floors suffered extensive water damage. The problem has since been fixed, and there were no further flooding problem from the revised design. (But there were other flooding-related issues elsewhere in the building that would probably be attributed back to Aragon.)

Aragon hired KONE to construct the 2 elevators in that building, and OMFG, the reliability of those 2 elevators were horrible. I couldn't exactly tell you how long the problem dragged on, but those 2 elevators were constantly out of service. Sometimes, KONE can come fix the elevator in the morning, only to have the damn thing break again and stop working in the same afternoon. Strata had to hire an external engineering company to do a technical engineering report of some sort on the elevator and list out all the problems they noticed, and threatened to sue before KONE finally came back to repair most of the deficiencies.

With Aragon, their response rate to problems was actually decent. Perhaps this was the result of the early water damage that took place, and a LOT of original buyers of the building were extremely upset. Still, as a result of other incidents with Aragon, I don't consider them to be a very honest developer.

I have other good / bad experience with different developers as well, but we'll save those for another time.

[Mr.HappySilp]

I dealt with Concord when it comes to warranty. They seem ok. At least they respond to my emails and actually send techs out to fix the issue. Although I was without heat for a good 1.5 weeks last Oct (I also know what the issue is and told them the issue) but they still send 2 service. First one was to see what the issue is, 2nd S/C was to fix the issue. And a final S/C to repaint the screws........

The dish washer also wasn't hook up tight enough so it was leaking when using it. Cause some damage to the cabinet which they fix. Again have to wait for weeks to get it done.

At least they own up to their issue and fix everything.

My current building is build by Cressy. According to my realtor the developer is actually very good. The building seems decent even though is 6 years old already. The strata seems to be on top of everything. The care taker does fix a lot of the small things which is great.

[yray]

geothermal is a lie and waste of time

[Mr.HappySilp]

Originally Posted by yray

geothermal is a lie and waste of time

Can you explain in details? Because it seems a lot of luxury apartment are putting it in. Also you have people saying it help saves cost in the winter and keeps the building cool in the summer.

I do know is very expensive to get them repair and fix since there aren't a lot of quality company in Vancouver to repair/fix/maintain them.

[Traum]

Originally Posted by Mr.HappySilp

Can you explain in details? Because it seems a lot of luxury apartment are putting it in. Also you have people saying it help saves cost in the winter and keeps the building cool in the summer.

I do know is very expensive to get them repair and fix since there aren't a lot of quality company in Vancouver to repair/fix/maintain them.

Save costs my a$$. Yeah, so it saves a bit of energy costs, but the maintenance and servicing alone can easily eliminate a good chunk of the savings. And then if my own experience was any indication, reliability of the system is low, and repairs is bloody $$$$ -- and that's assuming you can find someone to service your system.

IMO, the repair costs alone already makes it more $$$ than other available systems. And then there is the poorer reliability as well.

[Hondaracer]

Geothermal is a huge cost up front and very costly to work on/repair due to the nature of the system.

Central heat via a gas furnace is by FAR the most effeicnent means of heat/cooling it’s not even close. I believe as I was getting out of construction Surrey and a few other municipalities were mandating there be central air systems because the stagnant baseboard heat just wasn’t cutting it for air exchange etc.

In terms of cost, here’s an example from my own home:

We have a 3 level house, each level the footage is essentially the same. The 680sq ft suite is entirely heated by in-wall heaters (essentially a baseboard heater with a fan)

Our top 2 floors are exclusively heated by our gas furnace through central air. We have a full gas range, and a gas hot water tank that provides the hot water for the entire house. The suite has a full electric stove and we both have the General Electric appliances etc. the whole house’s lighting is entirely LED pots and bulbs.

Our gas bill every month is like $60

Our electrical is like $500 every 2 months..

[ShanghaiKid]

Not to derail anyones conversation...

I've been following Brentwood for a long time, ever since I purchased in 2014. After 3 amendments it's finally nearing completion, and buyers are slated to take ownership some time in Q2 2019. One aspect that Shape properties, the developer, has remained silent on is major tenants for the mall expansion. For a while a lot of people were fearful that they couldn't find enough attention-drawing storefronts to own up to their "luxury/upscale shopping experience" marketing.

Note: While this is not everyone's idea of what they consider convenience or necessity, a lot of other factors contributed to buying here. To each their own; I'm just offering up some information I've scraped up during this long wait and it won't, nor should it, make everyone as excited.


For a while Shape looked like they were biting off more than they could chew with a lawsuit involving Rennie Marketing and unpaid wages, as well as controversy surrounding the "City of Lougheed" project and not actually having approval to build yet (owning will likely be a few years behind the original projection). Recently Shape has also sped up their revamp of Richmond Center.

However after announcing a partnership with LCRE, a subsidiary of the Moet Hennessy Louis Vuitton conglomerate, a year or so ago, things started looking up. Regardless, aside from the REC room and Cineplex VIP, there were no other major announcements. More recently Toronto Based upscale sport and fashion retailer "Sporting Life" was announced as a major anchor tenant, along with I think an Indigo? A unique offering but still only 1 of, what needed to be, many tenants.

In the last few weeks, Shape uploaded an updated brochure that revealed some eye-catching details. There has been a lot of speculation, and while it has yet to be overtly announced, it looks like Burnaby might be getting the following:

Holt Renfrew
Wilfred
Mackage
COS
Equinox
Aesop
Rag & Bone
Urban Outfitters
Cactus Club
Saint Anne Restaurant

Updated Floor Plan:



Upscale department store with "Apartment" a personal shopping suite for Holts:


Brochure: http://shapeproperties.com/leasing/a...d-brochure.pdf

While none of the latter tenants have been officially announced, I'd be hard pressed to believe that they'd show off some flashy names without a bit of merit or truth to them. But take what I'm saying with a grain of salt, I can't prove any of it.

Again, the upscale shopping experience and the demographic associated with it might not be everyone's cup of tea. It's just as well that having a low-end no frills one-stop-shop supercentre beside a skytrain station (and it's panhandlers) might not be for everyone either. I certainly wouldn't be happy seeing that everytime I decided to come down for groceries. Case in point; not everyone's going to be happy because it doesn't fit everyones situation. I wouldn't have bought if I cared so much about LV being downstairs.

But as a owner and investor, I can say I'm very excited to see this project go to completion, and all that the future phases have to offer (Office spaces, More residential towers, Library, Sports complex, Major grocery store, etc.).

Anyways, happy to hear the community's thoughts, positive/negative or otherwise, on this.

Thanks for reading

[stump]

Originally Posted by jackmeister

I'm curious, are we not allowed to name the actual developers? It would help out a lot and, god-forbid, help them improve their shit ass image.

I have a mental list of developers/buildings to like (based on friends' experiences) and list of bad ones, an example would be that development named after a well known telecommunications company (everyone that i knew that had a place there, had quite a few issues). Everyone's making money from that one though, so

The developer is Onni, the building is in Steveston. Anyone driving down Moncton near #1 can see the building being repaired. The entire parkade envelope needs to be repaired and every balcony and sliding door needs replacement. The landscaping on the entire site has to be removed to fix the envelope.

Once I find the court case documentation again, I might post the names of all the construction companies in the lawsuit as well.

[Traum]

Originally Posted by ShanghaiKid

Not to derail anyones conversation...

I've been following Brentwood for a long time, ever since I purchased in 2014. After 3 amendments it's finally nearing completion, and buyers are slated to take ownership some time in Q2 2019. One aspect that Shape properties, the developer, has remained silent on is major tenants for the mall expansion. For a while a lot of people were fearful that they couldn't find enough attention-drawing storefronts to own up to their "luxury/upscale shopping experience" marketing.

Congrats on seeing the light at the end of the tunnel! 5 years is an awfully long wait for a pre-sale to finish. What kind of timelines were initially given when you bought into the project?

With Brentwood, you'd be quite close to Save-on-Foods, and then Costco is only a few minutes' drive away. So those would serve your basic groceries needs well.

And Save-on-Foods is another thing I've noticed among the new RE developments. Personally, I don't like shopping there because I tend to find their stuff on the pricey side. No frills, Superstore, and even Safeway are cheaper than Save-on-Foods. And yet out of all the different grocery chains, Save-on-Foods seem to be the one that has grown the most. Somehow, they're able to secure new store locations one after another, and they are always at these locations where a bunch of high rises have been built. By contrast, Superstore / Loblaws haven't seen nearly as much growth, and Safeway even had to close a few locations too.

Really gotta tip my hat to Jimmy P and his team for being so good at continuing to grow its business.

[v_tec]

Originally Posted by JDMStyo

2 towers in total . Yes North/South.

Current BOSA website is up but yes it still shows old alumni tower that was completed awhile back.

Has the floor plans for One Central been released yet? How's the reputation of Aoyuan International?

[sdubfid]

Groceries being called pricey in a Vancouver real estate thread.

[ShanghaiKid]

Originally Posted by Traum

Congrats on seeing the light at the end of the tunnel! 5 years is an awfully long wait for a pre-sale to finish. What kind of timelines were initially given when you bought into the project?

With Brentwood, you'd be quite close to Save-on-Foods, and then Costco is only a few minutes' drive away. So those would serve your basic groceries needs well.

Thanks! It's definitely been the longest I've ever waited or worked toward something; save for my bachelors.

Original projection was winter 2017. Amendment 1 pushed this to Summer 2018... then amendment 2 to Winter 2018.. and finally amendment 3 to Spring 2019.

Mall turnover is Q1 2019 and grand opening Q2. I think phase 2 is projected for 2021.

Yes. Save On's, Wholefoods and Costco are in the vicinity which is great. Although if I were to get rid of a car, a grocery tenant on site would be ideal. Either way still very convenient no matter how you look at it. Work is close to home too.

[Ludepower]

Congrats on your Brentwood purchase. Lots of my friends have bought there. Its suppose to be the new DT of burnaby. With those mega towers...do you think traffic is sustainable? Prices are close to DT prices and so many are coming online now. Will it hold its value and continue climbing relative to other areas?

Thanks

[Hondaracer]

Guess I will be going to the downtown Costco once those 3 new Brentwood towers are done. I’m close enough to punching somone in the head as it is

[R1CED`]

reading the last page has been depressing regarding post move in issues with pre-sales

and how much did you guys pay? $1000/sqft? 1200?

it's sad we still put up with shitty build given what we're already paying for...wonder if there's anything that can be done besides bitching on a small internet board

and why can't we publicly name the developers again?

[ShanghaiKid]

Originally Posted by Ludepower

Congrats on your Brentwood purchase. Lots of my friends have bought there. Its suppose to be the new DT of burnaby. With those mega towers...do you think traffic is sustainable? Prices are close to DT prices and so many are coming online now. Will it hold its value and continue climbing relative to other areas?

Thanks

No I dont. Traffic is already unsustainable, and with over thousands of units being built on site, with several thousand more moving in across the next 10 years JUST on Brentwood mall, trying to leave the area will be a chore itself. Now imagine that with all the independent towers in the surrounding area, Concord Brentwood, Gilmore, and Solo fully developed. Literally a city in itself built over a decade.

Yes prices were similar, and for some time I considered selling my assignment and buying something a few years older in yaletown or olympic village because I believe location is everything. If the market falls, DT will be one of the last places to feel its effects. I don't think Brentwood will climb as it seems we've reached a ceiling for dollars/sqft, in the end no one wants to pay a million for a shoe box, but I believe there is value and holding power due to the centrality, convenience, walkability and access to mass transit (another infrastructure aspect that will not be able to handle the massive influx of on site residents over the next 10 years). So to answer your question, it will hold its value better and longer than others, but if the whole market falls it will not be immune forever.

Originally Posted by Hondaracer

Guess I will be going to the downtown Costco once those 3 new Brentwood towers are done. I’m close enough to punching somone in the head as it is

Yup. I work at Costco so I know very well your sentiments. We understand its not sustainable and our operations teams are coming up with innovative ways to solve these issues. If you look at some US costcos they've rolled out self checkouts at both the merchandise and food court levels. 3 self checkouts takes the space of 1 cashier. Get people out faster, so they can get in faster.

Quite honestly we just need more locations, but with land value being what it is and our low margins, its not feasible yet.