Vancouver's Real Estate Market

[tiger_handheld]

is 75k still considered high income?
is 100k still excellent?
anything over 150 - you are rich?

what are the new norms these days?

[TOS'd]

100k is poverty line

[westopher]

That’s the most fucked up thing about current times. If you are a top 20% income earner in Vancouver, but weren’t born early enough to have been making that 8-10 years ago, you have no visible opportunity for financial stability. How is that a functioning economy?!

[supafamous]

Originally Posted by tiger_handheld

is 75k still considered high income?
is 100k still excellent?
anything over 150 - you are rich?

what are the new norms these days?

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1...pid=1110024001

According to stats can only ~11% of Canadians make more than $100k/yr.

I wouldn't call that rich but it's upper middle class for an individual (for a household it's middle class).

There's also measuring this by wealth rather than income: https://www.thekickassentrepreneur.c...ion-in-canada/

Net worth of $840k puts you into the top 10 percent of Canadians but to get into the top 1 percent you need over $9m.

I wouldn't call anyone "rich" unless they were both in the top 1% of income and wealth. A level below that (top 5%) would put them into very well off but one disaster from working the salt mines.

[underscore]

Your max mortgage is typically 5x your income right? If only 11% of Canadians can get approved for things beyond $500k + down payment who tf can buy anything?

[Alpine]

Originally Posted by CL typeS

What even classifies as middle class nowadays? Seems nowadays middle class worth = early 2000s upper class

IMO, 150k HH income = middle class.
That's 2 income earners, in their 30s with a couple of steps up the career ladder (or equivalent). Nothing extraordinary.

[Alpine]

Originally Posted by underscore

Your max mortgage is typically 5x your income right? If only 11% of Canadians can get approved for things beyond $500k + down payment who tf can buy anything?

Off the top of my head, you would need 1 or more of the following:
1) Living at home and not renting in your 20s to save up a down payment. That's 100k per person.
2) Receiving a gift/early inheritance from your parents
3) Having bought earlier when the price to income ratio was lower and riding the wave of appreciation
4) Having a broker who will fudge the income on your application|

Being Asian and knowing Vancouver, 1) & 2) are everywhere. 3) is dominant for older Millenials+. Heck, I have Asian friends/fam members that buy their first condo and rent it out while living at home just to get their toes into the market.

[Tapioca]

Originally Posted by Alpine

IMO, 150k HH income = middle class.
That's 2 income earners, in their 30s with a couple of steps up the career ladder (or equivalent). Nothing extraordinary.

Historically, a middle class lifestyle consisted of the following:
- Home ownership
- A couple of vacations per year
- 1 to 2 vehicles running and insured at any one time
- 5-10% income saved each month
- Leisure activities such as gym memberships, social clubs, etc.
- Cable TV and wireless phones
- Eating out once a week

Because home ownership is so expensive in Canadian major cities now, I would say that middle class is somewhere around $200-225K household, IMHO.

[JDMDreams]

The 850k net worth seems sus as everyone's parents who owns a detached in East Van is already very rich then, can't only be 10% of Canadians.

[supafamous]

Originally Posted by JDMDreams

The 850k net worth seems sus as everyone's parents who owns a detached in East Van is already very rich then, can't only be 10% of Canadians.

There are about 14m housing units in total in Canada and Vancouver has only 40k detached homes and 57k duplexes so Vancouver (and Toronto and other hot markets) presents a pretty warped view of the rest of the country.

[supafamous]

Originally Posted by Tapioca

Historically, a middle class lifestyle consisted of the following:
- Home ownership
- A couple of vacations per year
- 1 to 2 vehicles running and insured at any one time
- 5-10% income saved each month
- Leisure activities such as gym memberships, social clubs, etc.
- Cable TV and wireless phones
- Eating out once a week

Because home ownership is so expensive in Canadian major cities now, I would say that middle class is somewhere around $200-225K household, IMHO.

I think there's what statistically is "middle class" and there's what type of lifestyle we associate with "middle class" and I think you're talking about the latter not the former.

Statistically, middle is either average household income or median (the latter is more accurate) and in Vancouver that's 85-90k/yr. That's basically 2 earners making about $20-25/hr which doesn't seem out of line with the kind of work that's out there. It sounds bad but keep in mind that this is over the lifetime of careers - people starting out, people winding down, people taking a break (baby, health etc) - most of us here in our 40s would likely fall into the $100-200k household range as we're well into our careers and nearing peak earnings. Some of us have already bought into the housing market so our COL is not as bad as those who are trying to get in.

OTOH, if you're under 30 and your household is only $100k in a big city....thoughts and prayers. That's working class money in a big city.

[Tapioca]

Originally Posted by supafamous

I think there's what statistically is "middle class" and there's what type of lifestyle we associate with "middle class" and I think you're talking about the latter not the former.

Yeah, my point was not about statistics. A lot of what you hear on places like Reddit and RedFlagDeals and complaints about the housing market reflects lifestyle aspirations and entitlements. The sad reality is that the lifestyle that I described was pretty common for a household of two working class parents not too long ago.

200-225K IS an absurd number for a middle class lifestyle.

[EvoFire]

You can't really define middle class across a country as big as Canada, there are going to be some cities where 100k HH isn't much, and some where it means you can live very comfortably and the main drivers are housing, fuel, and cost of obtaining goods.

One thing that doesn't change nearly as much is actually cars as it's fairly standardized across the whole country. Almost seems like to get a good picture of which "class" you are in we should look at your HH income - cost of reasonable accommodation. If you take our HH - our real housing costs we would be in the lower class

[Gerbs]

Originally Posted by tiger_handheld

is 75k still considered high income?
is 100k still excellent?
anything over 150 - you are rich?

I think it's all relative. $75K in Winnipeg / Saskatoon is pretty solid still.

$75K CAD is extremely low for a high cost of living city.

$75K is $59K USD, the median individual income for Seattle is $52K USD, household is at $102K USD. Relative to down south, our $75 - 100K has a very average buying power. You're not going to be balling without a budget.

At $150K+ you're pretty comfortable, you can make big purchases and go out as much as you like and still easily invest $2 - 4k/month.

Originally Posted by tiger_handheld

what are the new norms these days?

I think more and more Vancourites that graduated from 2010 and onwards are all going to College/Uni, trades school, or have family money to start a small business. While I don't agree that having a degree alone will necessarily get you a good paying job. Most of the people that have a strong education in a professional industry tend to do well after 5 - 10 years.

If you're around a lot of people with skilled work, you may start to feel super behind because it seems as though everyone is making $100 - 120K+ after 5 to 8 years, or even earlier. Everyone I met in the last 2 years ranging in accounting, finance, digital marketing, plumbing, auto mechanics, consulting, engineering, RMT, Physio, design, project management, Nurses with OT, IB, sales, tech. They are all doing really well after the early grunt years of work.

Even teachers after 10 years, are at $91K plus pension and they can work some contract jobs during the 2 months summer break and be over $100K.

I grew up with immigrant parents and everyone around me in East Van were in similar situations with parents that hardly clear $16K-25K a year from minimum wage. So the thought of even making $50K must have been nice. But now that I look around, it seems as though everyone is balling.

Another thing I noticed is when someone comments that $100K isn't a lot anymore. The older peeps 33+ and the kids still in Uni seem to think you're crazy and that it's almost impossible to obtain. Some also think that $100K would mean that you're buying nice property, BMWs, and crazy luxuries in Vancouver when in reality you're just like everyone else but you can save an extra $1-2K a month.

[Hondaracer]

While it’s nice to throw around the idea that 100k+ jobs are like entry level middle management etc. I think the stark reality is the vast majority of people are never even going to come close to earning that lol

People are also extremely risk adverse given their finances and living situation. I know many people where I work and even with my wife’s company who get paid fairly well, but they 100% cannot risk a career move, even a lateral one which may provide greater opportunity for the fear that there could be a blip in income which heavily sets them back.

[Gerbs]

Originally Posted by supafamous

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1...pid=1110024001

According to stats can only ~11% of Canadians make more than $100k/yr.

I wouldn't call that rich but it's upper middle class for an individual (for a household it's middle class).

I'm curious what the stats are for someone that's has > 4 years of schooling. I feel like the older immigrants, non-educated, P/T workers and regular jobs heavily skew this down.

I remember falling into this rabbit hole and in the US, the median salary for a person with a 4 year degree was $60K USD/ $75K CAD?

Originally Posted by underscore

Your max mortgage is typically 5x your income right? If only 11% of Canadians can get approved for things beyond $500k + down payment who tf can buy anything?

The top 11%, aka 4 million Canadians, aka 99% of the people in this thread

[westopher]

I’m wondering where the teachers are at 91k after 10 years stat is coming from. My best friend is relatively new to the profession and he speaks quite bleakly about financial growth opportunities.

[Gerbs]

Originally Posted by Hondaracer

While it’s nice to throw around the idea that 100k+ jobs are like entry level middle management etc. I think the stark reality is the vast majority of people are never even going to come close to earning that lol

People are also extremely risk adverse given their finances and living situation. I know many people where I work and even with my wife’s company who get paid fairly well, but they 100% cannot risk a career move, even a lateral one which may provide greater opportunity for the fear that there could be a blip in income which heavily sets them back.

That's a really good point, those who are loyal to their companies or like the stability of staying in one company usually fall victim to being underpaid. Getting 0 - 7% raise a year depending on budgets and performance.

I come from the accounting and finance background and those who are doing really well are the one's who stick it out 1 to 2 years then job hop for a 20 - 40% raise. The moment you hit one year, you keep looking for the next pay jump. People talk about burning bridges and how it looks bad on your resume. I don't agree with this because your coworkers are generally happy you're getting a pay or title bump and recruiters are the ones hunting you for these new roles anyways.

Accounting is a sure way to hit $100K in 10 years, but most do it in 5.

Year 1: Staff Accountant / Junior Accountant - $38 - 42K, in 2022 they bumped salaries to $50 - 55K

Year 2: Raise $45 - 60K

Year 3: Finish CPA designation bump to $60 - 70K

Year 4: Job hop to a senior accountant job $75 - 90K + bonus

Year 5: Raise or laterally hop to another senior accountant / senior analyst / Manager $85 - 110K + bonus

Year 6 - 10: Land manager asap to make $100 - 140K + Bonus (Many retire their career aspirations here if they can find a chill gig working < 20 hours a week, usually government / city)

Years 11 - 15: Land senior manager asap to make $140 - 180K + Bonus

Years 15+: Decide if you wanna slave into director/vp/svp/CFO and $200 - 500K+ or try to make $140 - 180K working < 40 hours a week.

[Gerbs]

Originally Posted by westopher

I’m wondering where the teachers are at 91k after 10 years stat is coming from. My best friend is relatively new to the profession and he speaks quite bleakly about financial growth opportunities.

https://bcpsea.bc.ca/wp-content/uplo...0-2020-v.2.pdf

I do agree that they're underpaid. $60-70K for years 1 to 4 doesn't go far if you're in your 20's and trying to go out and experience life. They also do close to 6 years worth of schooling and tons of student loans?

[Hondaracer]

Easiest way to get a raise? Leave.

[Hondaracer]

Originally Posted by Gerbs

https://bcpsea.bc.ca/wp-content/uplo...0-2020-v.2.pdf

I do agree that they're underpaid. $60-70K for years 1 to 4 doesn't go far if you're in your 20's and trying to go out and experience life.

That’s the price to get your nice summers off?

[Gerbs]

Originally Posted by Hondaracer

That’s the price to get your nice summers off?

Tons of sick days, spring break, winter break, Pro-D days are essentially just chilling. Pretty good WLB and decently meaningful work too.

[westopher]

Yeah he's not complaining about the job, just saying, he's not going to get above a certain financial threshold, which he doesn't need to really due to property related circumstance.

[68style]

They gotta deal with your fuckin kids the whole day tho! You know… the ones you’re done with after a couple hours straight? Lol

[Gerbs]

Originally Posted by westopher

Yeah he's not complaining about the job, just saying, he's not going to get above a certain financial threshold, which he doesn't need to really due to property related circumstance.

I had a discussion about that this weekend. Friend was complaining how they don't make enough to survive. Had to educate her that even at $90K, you're probably not buying a 1BR in Vancouver.

It sucks because you don't really understand how expensive things are until you graduate and start working. So you aren't in a position to choose your careers until you're already 5 years deep and in debt.