It doesn't have to be stocks, index investing is quite safe. I think most of us are passive investors so the stock market might not be the best.

Canadian Couch Potato ? Your complete guide to index investing

I recommend that website for anyone interested in passive investing. Just follow what it says and you are almost guaranteed to see you a better return than what the current RE market would give you at todays prices.

Also everyone should keep in mind right now the stock market is at a all time high right now which means it's only going to go down from here.

Also I found this post on another forum regarding our RE market interesting:

Here is some interesting info about the previous booms, for those who asked:

CiC is that you?

Clearly you have no idea what you're talking about.

All this talk of 'if you invest and the stock market goes down, at least you have a roof over your head if you bought a house that you have negative equity in' - dumbest shit i've ever read.

you do not buy 1 company's stock.
you do not buy at 1 time, with all your worldly funds.
you do not buy 1 country's stock.

this is what any non idiot does who is our ages:

1) you buy every month - this means you get happy when prices go down, as it means your fixed monthly investment buys you more. you only want prices to go up when you're nearing selling time (theory and practice never match)

2) you buy a broad array, usually through ETFs, of stocks and fixed incomes, usually some US large cap exposure, Japanese, European large caps (40%), some emerging markets (20-30%), and some small cap (10-20%), with the rest in fixed income (10-30%) - fixed income doesn't mean bonds, i hate bonds, i preferred Preferred Shares in extremely healthy companies that will pay you 5-6% with capital that is very low risk and won't fluctuate much at all (as you will hold to maturity and continually reinvest so even if interest rates fluctuate, you won't lose).

If you don't want to do this yourself, or can't, you go to a 1% fixed fee financial advisor who will do it and re balance it and do all the work for you.

over 2008-2009 - if you did this, and didn't shit yourself and sell, you would have returned probably 7-8% per annum over the whole period (say from 2005-2014) - effectively, big dips are ignored as it just means you buy LOADS of stock at cheap prices.

Life is hard when you make it hard.

So lets talk about the 'at least you have a roof over your head'

first of all, you are putting down ALL of your worth at one time, when you buy a house - in fact, this is wrong, you are putting down all your wealth (usually ppl have basically no downpayment, so i assume no other assets), and you take on LOADS of debt, LOADS LOADS LOADS of debt - ALL AT 1 TIME. this is perhaps the riskiest thing in the world, to put all your eggs (and the eggs of your bank) in 1 basket, at 1 time.

so, you don't get the advantage of buying over time, that is, the enjoyment of the ups but not get as abused by the downs - you are less exposed to the ups and downs when you buy over time, less risk

real estate, over the long run, only goes up with inflation. that is a fact. no argument, is a fact.

S&P500, with reinvested dividends has historically gained 9% a year. a fact. no argument.

This is easy, should put all your money in S&P500 and retire? well no, timing is important (again, totally forgotten about when people buy a home).

also, leverage, you can make a FUCK loads of money in a high risk purchase of real estate which is highly levered, if you are levered at 3% (with no down payment) and your place goes up 5% each year, you're making 2% real return - sounds so-so, but you put nothing down, so you're making 2% on a big basis for nothing other than risk - that's fucking awesome - that also is risky as fuck.

timing is everything. it is fucking hard to time things, people may not see that now, they didn't in the US in '04, '05, '06, and '07 - but boy did they learn in '08 and '09... and even today.

let's talk about 'at least you have a roof over your head' - you do, good for you, you're paying more for that roof than a renter would, and you're in negative equity (in the situation we're assuming where prices go down)... and you're stuck. you can't move. you lose your job - you're fucked. your wife gets an amazing job in another town 'sorry hunny, we can't move b/c i took loads of risk so that we could always have a roof over our head, but it didn't pay out and now we're stuck... oh, you're leaving me, shit' - think that doesn't happen? it does. one reason the US economy is in a slow recovery (among MANY MNAY MANY) and why unemployment is still higher than it should be given what growth we've seen, is that people cannot move to where the jobs are - they're under water, in recourse states (like canada), and are stuck. this isn't me making up some BS, it's a fact that has been analyzed over the recent years.

In this day and age, mobility, for the masses, is so important.

I want to make it clear, i don't hate houses, i don't hate the idea of owning a home, i own many - i timed the shit out of them, and bought in a once in a lifetime opportunity right at the bottom of the US market - but it is all about timing. the whole 'at least you have a roof over your head' argument is on par with 'renting is paying for someone else's asset' - i like to think in Vancouver that actually 'renting is paying for someone else to have a liability that you live in'

remember, a liability is something that costs you money, an asset is something that generates you money. there are few houses bought today that are assets - people are buying on speculation of continued capital appreciation - this is the definition of high risk - 'investment based on hope'. My homes were risky, but they were a calculated risk based on expectation of capital appreciation but fundamentally with a great yield (10%) - in Vancouver your expectation of capital appreciation is non existent, and your yield will be less than your cost of financing.

and no, going all cash and saying 'i get positive cash flow' is stupid, as your opportunity cost is quite high on that cash.

no one is 'safe professionally' - having a job is very risky. owning a company is risky. until you have enough passive income to cover your expenses, you aren't 'safe'

and who is really 'committed to Metro Van'? it's a place to live, there are thousands around the world - you might be there for 10-15 years whilst kids go to school, but they'll go off to uni, maybe your life circumstance will change.

5 years ago if you asked where i'd be living, europe would not have been on the radar. in 5 years time, i still have no idea.

i know not everyone is the same, and maybe you'll have the same job for life or same career, and it will be very safe for you- as it likely will be for me, and maybe you'll be in Van for life (i hope you're not, it's really boring, comparatively) - but you would likely be in the minority given how many people move around, change careers, change jobs through force, etc.

life is, and is becoming more, flexible, variable, changable - nothing should be taken for advantage or planned for too long, other than your investments for retirement - that needs to stay the course. the government won't be there for us when we retire.

i'd grow the fuck up and say 'thanks mum and dad, but you spend that on your retirement, you worked hard all your life and should do everything you want to now'

and before anyone says 'you wouldn't do the same' - you don't know me.

to quote Judas Priest:

"I've held my license, it came with birth
For self reliance on this earth"

your parents bring you into this world, they raise you well with a set of morals, they give you every opportunity whilst you are young, and push you to take it... but if you're in your 20's and need to rely on mum and dad for anything other than a loan, financially, you're a weenie.

Vancouver is full of weenies

i'll give you a hint - no one.

financial advisor, and forget about it. lower risk, they can help you plan more than just investments - they are a tool to use, so find a good one and use them for their value

does it, and is it?

in absolute terms, yes it is at all time highs, so what? in relative terms it's not cheap, but is by no means extreme. forward and trailing P/Es are within the range of reason - certianly don't expect continued huge gains, and you'll perhaps see a 5-10% cooling, but you will unlikely see a large, sustained correction.

this is all except the NASDAQ, which is more prone to bubbles, i do think we're in a mini-dot com bubble, but i don't play in that game, so won't directly get burnt.

I didnt even bother reading your essay. You clearly have very little understanding what makes the world go round.......you are like a fat kid screaming on top of a soap box and no one care what you have to say.....at least Marco 911 was witty and interesting

typical uneducated response.

it's funny, someone who is very high up in a huge company, travelling around the world taking care of business, literally - ya, i'm out of touch with how the world works.

just because i provide a solid response, from a financial standpoint, well, i'm sorry if you don't want to read that - your prerogative

^ your humility is astonishing as well. Haha, you think working high up for a huge company (you are always going to be someone's bitch), travelling the world (away from family, gets boring fast) makes you Knowledgeable? you keep demonstrating how immature you a really are.....haha, you make me laugh though.....

So you are suggesting the guy to lie to his parents? His parents intention is to give him the money and purchase a place not to invest in anything else. Is a pretty asshole move if you ask me.

Great way to break your parents' trust. It doesn't matter if you make more money investing those money is that fact that you had to lie to your parents to get the money.

Have you though about how his parents will react if they find out the said money is being invested eleswhere other than using it to purchase a place? What if the investment didn't go well and he ended up losing the money? How will he explain to his parents.

To all those people saying the market is going to crash any day..... People have been saying it for 5 years or more. Nothing changed. No one can tell the future.

Remember even if you buy now and price do go down, you aren't at a lose till you sold your house. Is the closing amount that counts. If you have the down payment, feels having a mortgage isn't putting too much stress on your financial and feels like getting a place go for it.

If you feel you like renting and investing the money go ahead. There is not right or wrong either way. It all depends on what people want.

In a way 4444 could be right for some people but not for other people.

I feel is time I purchase a place so I did. Is it a bad idea? To me is a good idea while others might think is bad. I have a pretty stable decent job, I ain't leaving Vancouver in a while, I enjoy the city and do travel.

I'm glad u feel so powerful to be able to judge.

You know nothing of me, so I won't defend myself against your empty words, as they are just that, words of a fool

I put as much into my mortgage as I do into stocks every month so I guess I'm equally vested into both worlds.

I would rent, but my wife likes the idea of owning a place. Yeah, it's an emotional decision, but for her, it's this intangible security that's well worth the cost.


If you go on REBGV, there's statistics showing average sale prices of houses, townhouses and apartments.

Anyone know of any calculators where you can compare the long-term value of owning a home versus an apartment, factoring in taxes, interest, and other costs?

Most of my friends have either bought an older house (that needs fixing) or a newer townhome so it would be interesting to see the comparison financially.

You get so defensive, but you're so insulting to everyone in this thread that has any different viewpoint. You have some good points, but your delivery is embarrassing as of late. You may know the ins and outs of finances, but buying a home involves MORE than just finances. Its the place you may raise a family, and for some people its worth that premium for the stability it allows. As someone who has a very difficult time finding rentals, due to my family member (a pitbull mix me and my wife rescued, and the intention to add another to the family) even with perfect credit, 2 stable jobs and a 6 figure household income I still am not eligible for 95% of the rentals available in Vancouver. I haven't purchased yet, and maybe I won't anytime soon, but that stability may be worth the premium. You state many facts about the finances, which many you are obviously correct about, however your emotional thoughts of how YOU want to travel, and how YOU don't want to be tied town is not how everyone feels.

When you let emotion get into the biggest financial decision you'll ever make, watch out. Forget what the real estate agent or any "expert" on TV say and decide for yourself. It's too bad we live in the TLDR generation where everything has to happen now. Patience is certainly in short supply nowadays.

Couple of my friends who bought homes recently are now bombarded by the door to door real estate agents who try to get them to sell their homes with the huge 'promise' of making a big profit over their purchase price.

Fucking vultures. I knew car salesmen were bad but these realtors one up their closely related brethren by selling more than just the physical property but the intangible emotions that accompany it.

I would LOVE to buy some property but not at the grossly inflated prices I see them at, currently. Even if I had the money, I probably still wouldn't buy. I guess I believe too strongly in FAIR Market Value.

*I don't come in this thread often so felt like venting, lol*

It's interesting how thing escalated lately in this thread... :fuckthatshit:

Just some new perspective I got today from my dad when I told him I was planning on moving back to Vancouver and continue renting as I didn't see any sense putting so much money for a roof.

He then told me... "why do you want to move a place you can't afford?"
Me: I could, but it doesn't make sense to me.
Dad: blah blah blah... when you can actually afford a place, you would never think whether it's better to invest onto something else. It's somewhere you are probably going to stay for the next 30years for god sake. What kind of other 30yr investment is out there?
Me: Yeah dad, but not everyone have an income like you to be able to say that. We still need to balance our income and expenses. Plus the possible returns/losses on our investments.
Dad: exactly my point. If investing in Vancouver doesn't make sense, why move there?
Me: .....

I think the price of RE really either priced out or basically locked people in Vancouver. One either can't afford and leave or can't afford to leave if RE doesn't go up significantly year after year.

I see where you are coming at, but I also see where 4444 is coming at. Some of the posts regarding investing in stocks in the last few pages are downright ignorant, or misinformed.

But I think 4444 isnt a politically correct kind of guy so he just calls it for what it is. ignorant comments.

for the average person, investing is not easy. and not many people are knowledgeable about investing. it's not that they are stupid, they just haven't been properly educated on it.

Even when my friends asks me for investment advice on the stock market, I tell them about ETFs, and balanced portfolios, and what is there risk tolerance etc etc etc. they have no idea what I'm talking about. What's an ETF? what do you mean I should have a long term investment horizon etc.? what do you mean what's my risk tolerance? balanced portfolio?

it's not that my friends are not smart, they just arent educated on investments.

HGTV is now one of the most popular networks. it's the new house craze culture we have here.

Look at advertisements at skytrain stations, bus stops, 24 hr and Metro newspapers. The province, the sun. look at the condo and new home magazines that they have for free at any supermarket or skytrain station.

it's everywhere and I think a lot of people are getting emotional and letting it affect their decisions.

I never understood the argument for paying a premium for "stability" "lay down roots" or any other pro-family reasons. What is the #1 cause of divorce? financial problems.

So you pay the premium for those reasons above and due to the premium its harder to save up money (especially if you add a child). What happens if one day shit hits the fan and one or both of you lose your job and cant find work? Did everyone already forget 2009? Mommy and daddy fighting every day isn't a good family environment isnt it.

I'm not saying never marry or never buy a house, just buy when its ideal and dont be tempted or pressured because your friends bought a place etc etc

One thing that strikes me about this conversation is a lot of people come expected to be coddled; have advice given to them, as if the message board knows their back history.

The great thing about life is its variability. Chances are, you come here and applying the said advice will just give you average results at best. No one know your situation as well as you do.

The best thing is to do suck it up, do your research and just do what you think is right and live with the consequences. That's the only way to learn. If you don't know investing, open an account and spend your coffee, lunch or car money to invest. After a while, you will figure out that not all ETFs are the same (if you are short on cash, at least try in those stock competitions I remembered globeandmail used to ran a few and those were always fun). In fact globe and mail have a great section for educating you to be financially savvy. If you want a condo just get a condo and see how it is like, no one can really predict when the buy is great for you.

Using the buzzword of the year.. "lean in", participate and gain knowledge. Much like other things in life like love etc, I suggest experimenting and learning while you are still young when dealing with losses won't hurt as much as when you are married and have 3 kids. Just imagine how limited rentals options in the city will be, you have if you have a family in Vancouver, vs say studio?

Port Coquitlam residents may lose homes over leaky condo crisis | Globalnews.ca

I hope this doesn't keep happening :heckno:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leaky_condo_crisis

Unfortunately it is the design of these condo buildings that cause the problem, remediation only reset and slow down the issue. The assumption is once the building is over 40 odd years or so, they will be torn down. It will come back one point or the other.

It is literally try to catch a falling knife without getting hurt.

Another point of doing your own research and be informed.