DCT vs 6MT - Purist M5 ?

[ilvtofu]

Originally Posted by Energy

You assume that the figure is going to go down but I think it will hold steady because those cars are not A to B cars. The GTI has been 50% manual for a while now even if its DSG is arguably pretty good.

And I agree with you that driving a modern automatic is more satisfying. More satisfying than driving an older automatic that is. The satisfaction you get from modern automatics is still different from the satisfaction you get from a manual. What is really satisfying is nailing that perfect shift or heel-toeing before taking several curves. People get satisfaction from overcoming challenges or after doing something relatively complicated. Automatics take away that feeling by making everything so easy. I'm not really wowed by you shifting sequentially from 5th to 2nd in a blink of an eye - what I'm impressed with is your car and not your driving.

Superior fuel economy, faster shifts, paddles, throttle blips, launch control, etc make a car more efficient but not necessarily more fun.

All the electronic systems in modern cars separate drivers from what is actually happening. Even paddle shifting feels very artificial somehow. I've driven cars with dual clutch transmissions and while I'm impressed by how fast and smooth they can shift I still want to feel engaged when driving a car.

And while some manufacturers may have given up on manuals, others are smart enough to realize that there are still people out there that want an analog rather than digital feel when driving.

But like I said earlier, there is a place for both transmissions in this world.

I don't think anyone is denying the satisfaction of heel toe shifting, I also love the simple confidence you have when driving a manual and knowing what gear you're in, and how far away the gear is you might want to be in.

Overcoming challenges is satisfying and yes an automatic may make you feel more disconnected from the trasmission. But like i said earlier, there is so much more to driving than just a transmission, IMO by focusing less on the clutch pedal and the gear lever you can concentrate more on your steering input and your braking points. I think that lines and braking points are 90% of the challenge/satisfaction on the track and shifting is not all that exciting or interesting.

To each his own though, if you are on the race track and you feel proud about your shifting a manual is right for you. There is definitely a challenge in getting your shifting points right and your shifting action smooth. If a large percentage of your driving satisfaction comes from rowing the gears and heel-toe shifting manual is hands down the right choice for you.

The consumer can assess the tradeoffs, back in the day the tradeoffs made everyone who gave a rats ass pick a manual but now the choice is not so easy. I'm not surprised the 911 is only 30-40% manual, the manual in the 997 and even the 993 are not impressive, Pedal placement sucks and the shifter feels sloppy and dare I say it, cheap. It isn't just c-lai's buying these automatics, you will just see more and more PDK 911's at the track.

One statistic I am really curious to find out is the percentage of people who went from manual to a dual clutch automatic and back to a manual on something like a 911, gti, M3.

Edit: Feels so lonely on RS holding this opinion...

[death_blossom]

from what I've heard, this 6-spd is more of an after thought for the current F10 M5. since only N.America gets it, the gearing is not optimized for the car. probably just something off the shelf and slapped on.

[artmotion]

For me, after driving a manual since I was in high school and an automatic off and on, my car is starting to wear on me. Maybe I'm going soft but I think it's just great to have both. A manual car to bang through gears on the weekend and an auto (hopefully with a DCT) for a daily driver.

Say what you will about the M brand being diluted. I'm totally with you guys on this one.

The M5 although a performance powerhouse, just seems to me like it's turned into what's just a great touring car that can also blow the doors off of most of the cars on the road and if desired, could really perform on the track. And in my opinion, this isn't such a bad thing. With that much power, purists will definitely go for a manual, but as something that I could see as a comfortable and sporty dd, I would hands down take the DCT.

[UFO]

Well this discussion starts at transmissions, and will lead to hybrid drivetrains. 'Purists' will always want and desire manual transmissions, non-hybrid powerplants, even if technology and advancement make things better. Purists will argue that better =/= enjoyment, and that is entirely relevant.

5 years ago I may have considered myself a purist, but now I value things that work better, work together, efficiency, and something that is well thought out and packaged. Realistically, the opportunities to unleash the purist in me is few and far in between, and compromising the day to day functionality for satisfaction in those rare circumstances is not a worthwhile tradeoff IMO.

[KO7]

I agree with a lot of you that daily driving a manual car in a city that's second worst (after LA) for traffic congestion in North America gets old quick. I would definitely opt for the DCT without hesitation, and would even take a dual-clutch setup in my lowly Si if it were offered.
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[Gumby]

My 2 cents:

Before I had a family, I owned a '97 Integra GSR and it was a blast to drive. I also drove my sister's RSX-S a bit and that was just as fun.

I've also driven my dad's manual E34 (535i) and it drove like a boat. He traded that in for an automatic E39 (540i) and that was much more enjoyable whenever I drove it...

[Mr.C]

Not handbuilt = not pure.

Who cares about the transmission?

[sekin67835]

I think the response you get from engine and handling are more important than how the gears are changed. I do think manuals are more "fun" but i also think i can have just as much "fun" with an automatic gearbox as long as it shifts the gears smoothly and fast.
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[UFO]

I was watching a Chris Harris clip on the Porsche 918 Spyder, the thing is about 100kg lighter than a CGT without the hybrid bits and pieces. Harris asks the engineer if they would ever plan to build a 918 with regular engine only and keep it super lightweight. The engineer plainly said something along the lines of: "Why would I want to go slower"

[Energy]

Originally Posted by ilvtofu

I don't think anyone is denying the satisfaction of heel toe shifting, I also love the simple confidence you have when driving a manual and knowing what gear you're in, and how far away the gear is you might want to be in.

Overcoming challenges is satisfying and yes an automatic may make you feel more disconnected from the trasmission. But like i said earlier, there is so much more to driving than just a transmission, IMO by focusing less on the clutch pedal and the gear lever you can concentrate more on your steering input and your braking points. I think that lines and braking points are 90% of the challenge/satisfaction on the track and shifting is not all that exciting or interesting.

To each his own though, if you are on the race track and you feel proud about your shifting a manual is right for you. There is definitely a challenge in getting your shifting points right and your shifting action smooth. If a large percentage of your driving satisfaction comes from rowing the gears and heel-toe shifting manual is hands down the right choice for you.

The consumer can assess the tradeoffs, back in the day the tradeoffs made everyone who gave a rats ass pick a manual but now the choice is not so easy. I'm not surprised the 911 is only 30-40% manual, the manual in the 997 and even the 993 are not impressive, Pedal placement sucks and the shifter feels sloppy and dare I say it, cheap. It isn't just c-lai's buying these automatics, you will just see more and more PDK 911's at the track.

One statistic I am really curious to find out is the percentage of people who went from manual to a dual clutch automatic and back to a manual on something like a 911, gti, M3.

Edit: Feels so lonely on RS holding this opinion...

Haha don't feel lonely lots of people on here share your view too. Its nice to have a friendly debate about car stuff once in a while on here because we all do love cars whether manual or auto.

You talk about lines and braking points on a track but there are less people that track their cars than people that drive manuals. For competitive driving when all you care about is lap times then yes, go with an automatic.

But when daily driving, the transmission plays a huge part in the feeling of involvement you get when driving a car. Without the clutch and stick shift all you're really doing is steering, braking, accelerating. When driving a manual, it is probably about 40% (just pulled that number out of the air btw) of the driving effort of the driver. That is 40% you don't get with an automatic... your involvement is way down. No, paddles are not as involving. And people with paddle shifts are usually on full auto mode all the time... what's the point then? The paddles are just there behind the steering wheel looking pretty. So instead of a conventional automatic you are just driving an automatic that has more gears that shifts faster and smoother.

I dunno, I just have strong feelings about transmission choice. And its a personal thing too, I don't really care what you drive. It took me a long time to find my e92 335i with a 6 speed and I don't regret the choice one bit. I'd literally feel so numb or fall asleep on my commute if I went with an auto. But then again I'm still young. Who knows, maybe when I'm 30 I'll want a big, comfy, hybrid luxury sedan with a 15 speed automatic.