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Finally, someone who see things objectively. Would you guys still take a manual in a car say R35, MP4-12C well knowingly that it'll change the character of the car possibly for the worse just for the fun/enjoyment of it? I think he has a point, in a less modern car like NSX or even like the FRS kind of car I can't imagine it having a DCT, how about a Veyron with a manual? We live in interesting times, at a crossroad between MT and DCT.
If I had a serious amount of money for any new, fast car, there is no way I would even consider a car without a clutch. That being said, the average 27 y.o male isn't a 100k+ target market for these cars. My drives up to whistler aren't measured by time, its measured by the enjoyment I get, and I wouldn't get that enjoyment without a third pedal.
He admits that the M5 is big, heavy, and luxurious. An automatic might be better suited to that kind of car.
There is a place for both automatics and manuals in this world. Automatics are better for bigger and heavier cars. Its no fun shifting gears when you feel like you're driving a boat.
I think that for sports cars there are two categories now - simple, basic sports cars and technological showcases.
The sports cars in the former category don't use as much technology and the driver plays a big part in how the car drives. Cars like the FRS, Corvette, Viper, Porsches, M3, R8, Gallardo, Vantage, Elise.
Then there are cars that rely on computers and technology to achieve really high performance figures and/or are really big and heavy. The driver doesn't really play a big part on the way the car drives. MP4-12c, R35 GTR, LFA, M5.
I still want to feel like I am a part of what is happening when driving a car so I lean more towards cars that are simple and light that put the driving experience first.
Toyota recognized people like me when they built the FRS and the response to that car was really good. Porsche is also up there as they continue developing manuals. Their cars are known for being good to drive and the effect on their brand by staying true to that core competency makes people aspire to own one.
to me, a more nimble car would fit better with a manual (miatas, s2k, porsches). but a M5....or CLS etc those big grand-touring sedans should be fitted with twin-Clutch, SMGII etc whatever you want to call it. just makes more sense for me as a daily driver.
"It's called Sex Panther by Odeon. It's illegal in nine countries... Yep, it's made with bits of real panther, so you know it's good ... They've done studies, you know. 60% of the time it works, every time. "
The M cars have really become something they are not, IMHO a true M car is light, fast, and minimally luxurious. Something like an E30 M3 is a true M car. A 2012 M5? No, SO far from a "true" M car it's not even funny...
Personally on the track I'd prefer a quick shifting dual clutch automatic, shifting gears isn't that satisfying for me on the track and I like that it lets you focus more on everything else you're doing, like steering, which IMO, is more enjoyable when you have 2 hands glued to the wheel. (flame suit on)
When I took the 6MT 997 turbo to the track, I definitely felt what Carlos in the video described as clumsiness. At those power levels you could feel the transmission shifting around and throwing the lever into places you thought the gears would be, and all the OEM rubbery/sloppy shifter feel on top of that. Personally would have had a much better time with PDK.
In the city I like the ultimate control you get with a manual. You can launch the car and have very predictable characteristics, whereas with an automatic launch control does not feel natural at all. You can be cruising along in fifth at 60kmh and throw it into 2nd or 3rd for a burst of enjoyment. On the track you tend to shift in sequence more so an automatic doesn't hurt in that department. At a city pace I love heel-toeing into a turn for that pure visceral feeling especially if you have a sublime exhaust note and an open top.
Just about every car in our garage is a manual with the exception of the GTI DSG, I can find little to complain about for the DSG in manual mode but of every manual shifter and clutch combination there is noticeable room for improvement. Either clutch is too light or too heavy, shifter is inaccurate and rubbery, throws are noisy, likes to grind into reverse, sticky when cold, and the list goes on... My personal vote is for DCT
EDIT: I wonder how much of the demand for a manual is from the insecurity of "going soft"...
i love it when large and heavy cars come with standard trannies. it gives u the feeling of "hauling ass" especially when its mated with a strong motor.
yes its not going to as fast as a lighter car with the same tranny and motor but u lose the sense of weight and size in smaller and lighter sports cars.
its hard to describe but when i test drove a e39 m5 and cts-v, i was just blown away
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[23-07, 02:53] LSF22 the guy who i just saw had like 5 or 6 cars on his lawn needs a ride
[07-10, 15:42] nabs tbails14 = the legend continues
[27-10, 19:44] slickrick (to ts14) NO NOT THE EXHAUST
[07-10, 22:42] Ri2 If I had a real one I'd fap til it turns blue probably
[05-01, 16:24] Geoc ts you're a never ending inspiration for the inner buddy guy in all of us
If you want to get the most out of the M5 aka autobahn blazer then you get the auto. If you want pure driving enjoyment from rowing your own gears then something like fr-s will do perfect.
Some cars are just designed with a twin clutch from the get go. It just doesn't work very well with a manual transmission. You don't have to go to uber exotics for this, even the VW GTI, it is designed with the DSG in mind, the manual just doesn't feel right. You can do all the same things you can with the manual, but like the video said, there is some sort of clumsiness to it, where its not smooth. I love my manuals, but if I were to buy a GTI, I would get a DSG
If I had a serious amount of money for any new, fast car, there is no way I would even consider a car without a clutch. That being said, the average 27 y.o male isn't a 100k+ target market for these cars. My drives up to whistler aren't measured by time, its measured by the enjoyment I get, and I wouldn't get that enjoyment without a third pedal.
You're absolutely correct, the average 19 y.o males from Richmond are the target market for these 100k+ cars
Genuinely curious: What are some of the more common ways of screwing up the DSG tranny and requiring hefty bills? I've read of it being somewhat common (or atleast not "rare"), and can't wrap my head around how that would happen.
Some are better than others... SMG in the E46 M3s was a bit of a crapshoot with the hydraulic pump being a point of failure and costing about $1000 to fix. The DSGs in some of the VW/Audi products have not been great either, though I am not totally sure what the "standard" point of failure is.
With that said, a clutch in a DCT will typically last longer than one in a 6spd car and is usually the same part number and not much different labour to get to, so I reject the premise that the cost of maintaining one is higher than a standard manual transmission!
Mark
__________________ I'm old now - boring street cars and sweet race cars.
BMW will never build a car like that again. People now want all the electronic toys, be able to connect their apps, have a lever that scratches their ass and a seat that massages their taint while they drive 20km/h down Robson. The "purist" cars are forever gone due to the advance of technology. Now a S65 engine in a lightweight E30 would be a real hoot.
I'm shopping around for a E9X M3 right now and I really have no preference for a DCT or a 6MT. They are both awesome transmissions and the only difference I can see is the cost to maintain the dual clutch if it breaks.
E34 B10 twin turbo! probably more purist than the newer M5's!
only offered in 5 speed...... and theres even a manual boost controller on the dash
Bmw M cars are more poser friendly now... Less specialized of a product compared to before. Since AMG has the black division, shouldnt BMW come out with a more "specialized" line of model??
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13' Nissan DBA-R35 GT-R Black Ed - Black met. - "Sophia"
90' Honda EF Civic HB // 04' Honda Pilot Granite
- The Drinker of Many Many Coffees @ McLaren Vancouver
big advocate for manual trans here. i could care less about shaving a few tenths of a second here and saving a few liters of fuel there. even with things like smg and dsg the enjoyment shifting my own gears just isn't there. im just glad bmw decided to offer the f10 m5 in stick for the na market. one more car im looking forward to in the used car market.
when the autotragic trans decide to crap out in my 740i, which it will, because its got bmw electrics, its getting an e39 m5 6 speed trans swap.
You guys have to understand you are the minority here, 70% of my friends do not know what to do with a manual car if I gave them the keys to it.
I prefer manual because its engaging and you're in control.
My parents prefer CVT because of its "fuel savings"
My relatives prefer automatic because of its ease
My friends prefer automatic because it lacks a 3rd pedal.
Automatic transmissions are deemed a luxury.
And what cars are deemed a luxury?
BMW, Mercedes, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Audi, Mclaren, Rolls Royce, Maserati, ETC.
Only reason why BMW still offers manual for it's M6/M5/M3 inside its homeland is because majority of the drivers there prefer manual.
They are the pinnacles of techno-logic advances, they are always on top of everything, and they deem the manual a dying demographic, which is absolutely true.
Realistically, the people who buy these cars are point A to B drivers who enjoys the cars, not to play touge through the Rocky Mountains.
They could care less what youngens think, driving Subarus, Hondas, Nissans, Toyota, ETC, we are not their demographic, the older crowd is, and they prefer automatic, because they are the majority.
Once we all hit the 30's and lives are settling down, you may have a completely different mind set, when once you wanted the most number on your dyno, with the most decked out interior, to just wanting something easy to drive, with luxuries appointed to your taste.
honestly, automatic is more of a north america thing..
customers i have met at work demanded/ required the vehicle to be in standard.... because to them its what they are used to, and "feels right" because it is what they are usually driving in Europe!
and im pretty sure the manual is offered to shut up the M fanatics
__________________
13' Nissan DBA-R35 GT-R Black Ed - Black met. - "Sophia"
90' Honda EF Civic HB // 04' Honda Pilot Granite
- The Drinker of Many Many Coffees @ McLaren Vancouver
Here are the manual take rates for a few cars... It would be interesting if there was an accurate list for more models.
Subaru BRZ - 70%
Scion FRS - 52%
Ford Mustang (GT and V6) - 50%
Volkswagen GTI - 50%
Porsche 911 - 30-40% depending on model and where it is in its life cycle
Honda CRZ - 40%
Here are the manual take rates for a few cars... It would be interesting if there was an accurate list for more models.
Subaru BRZ - 70%
Scion FRS - 52%
Ford Mustang (GT and V6) - 50%
Volkswagen GTI - 50%
Porsche 911 - 30-40% depending on model and where it is in its life cycle
Honda CRZ - 40%
Will be interesting to see how much lower these numbers will be in 5 years etc.
One thing I think we can unanimously agree on is that some of these automatic gearboxes are a lot more satisfying to drive now. On my 2000 miata the automatic would be such a huge drawback in so many ways that even if you didn't care about having fun you would avoid it.
Modern automatics have superior fuel economy, faster shifts, paddles, throttle blips, launch control, etc. and are just a whole lot more desirable.
Some of the posters on this thread are making normative statements that any real driving enthusiast would be more satisfied with a 'pure' manual transmission and simply fail to recognize those (like myself) that also enjoy a well sorted out automatic. Manufacturers aren't pushing automatics because they don't care about driving enthusiasts, driving enthusiasts are just leaning more and more towards these types of transmissions. It is not that they are not the target, the targets' preferences are changing and they are adapting as such.
You assume that the figure is going to go down but I think it will hold steady because those cars are not A to B cars. The GTI has been 50% manual for a while now even if its DSG is arguably pretty good.
And I agree with you that driving a modern automatic is more satisfying. More satisfying than driving an older automatic that is. The satisfaction you get from modern automatics is still different from the satisfaction you get from a manual. What is really satisfying is nailing that perfect shift or heel-toeing before taking several curves. People get satisfaction from overcoming challenges or after doing something relatively complicated. Automatics take away that feeling by making everything so easy. I'm not really wowed by you shifting sequentially from 5th to 2nd in a blink of an eye - what I'm impressed with is your car and not your driving.
Superior fuel economy, faster shifts, paddles, throttle blips, launch control, etc make a car more efficient but not necessarily more fun.
All the electronic systems in modern cars separate drivers from what is actually happening. Even paddle shifting feels very artificial somehow. I've driven cars with dual clutch transmissions and while I'm impressed by how fast and smooth they can shift I still want to feel engaged when driving a car.
And while some manufacturers may have given up on manuals, others are smart enough to realize that there are still people out there that want an analog rather than digital feel when driving.
But like I said earlier, there is a place for both transmissions in this world.
Here are the manual take rates for a few cars... It would be interesting if there was an accurate list for more models.
Subaru BRZ - 70%
Scion FRS - 52%
Ford Mustang (GT and V6) - 50%
Volkswagen GTI - 50%
Porsche 911 - 30-40% depending on model and where it is in its life cycle
Honda CRZ - 40%
Manual take rate for the FRS is only 52%?!
I've driven that car and I fell in love. But that is a manual car if there ever was one. When I drove the auto after a couple times in the manual, it was like two completely different cars. y u other 48% y?!
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Less specialized of a product compared to before. Since AMG has the black division, shouldnt BMW come out with a more "specialized" line of model??
y u other 48% y?!
