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Understeer is the front tires no longer holding grip. Your saying that you are breaking loose the front tires just around corners while normal city driving?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 91civicZC
Totally agree, Stock for Stock RWD cars generally “feel” better. Part of that is the feeling and control of being “shoved” rather than “pulled”, but add to it that most RWD cars today make a point of being a bit more performance oriented than your average grocery getting FWD hatchback. This is more about suspension setup and chassis stiffness. But I’m not sure I understand how someone would be getting understeer during normal city driving in a corner.
If your comparing the turn in response at 25-30kmkm per hour of a stock Honda Civic and a stock BMW, the BMW will always have a sharper turn in and better steering response, but not because of an understeer situation. Or at least, it SHOULDNT be becouse of understeer.
From google:
verb /ˌəndərˈsti(ə)r/ (of a motor vehicle) Have a tendency to turn less sharply than is intended
This really doesn't have anything to do with tires breaking loose... More to do with the dynamics of your car.
verb /ˌəndərˈsti(ə)r/ (of a motor vehicle) Have a tendency to turn less sharply than is intended
This really doesn't have anything to do with tires breaking loose... More to do with the dynamics of your car.
Understeer is all about grip, and slip angle. It has everything to do with your tires breaking loose. By definition, the front tire is not matching the steering input, which means............... it’s not gripping.
You can induce or reduce understeer in car setup (or vehicle dynamics if you like), but actual understeer itself is the fact the front tires are loosing grip, so the vehicle is going on a more forward direction that the driver is inputing.
If you want some reading, dont look up vague definitions on Google, try something like this:
There is a technical definition and the real world one. The technical definition of understeer is when the front tires have a greater slip angle than the rears. Oversteer is when the rear tires have a greater slip angle than the fronts.
In real world terms, understeer is when the car won't turn any sharper, even if you turn the steering wheel more. At some point, the front end may start to grip less even when the steering is turned sharply and the result is the car continues in more of a straight line than a sharp turn. That is understeer.
That's what I wanted to say but they said it better than I ever could. We are not on the track here and are talking about driving in the real world. Your definition is correct and so is mine.
lol is everyone in here a race car driver or something? It really shouldn't be possible for one to experience the difference in fwd and rwd handling. I've personally driven a 4wd for one year and a rwd for two years and I can say there is little to no difference in cornering or anything else in city conditions. Electric aids such as the new electric power steering numbs the road feel even more so which I believe contributes the most to 'feel'. Suspensions and everything else is for track use only, hence why most manufactures are moving toward torsion beam rear suspensions. Cause in reality there is no difference; evident in the Volkswagon Jetta. So to sum it up, no, rwd and fwd will not change driving dynamics for the daily commuter. And to bring this back on topic, I think it'd be great to have a fwd in the BMW line up besides the cooper.
agreed with that. most normal herp derp average joes wont feel differences between them in a commuter. but keep in mind though, this is a car forum full of car enthusiasts, and yes enthusiasts tend to lean on "because race car" opinions. Posted via RS Mobile
That's what I wanted to say but they said it better than I ever could. We are not on the track here and are talking about driving in the real world. Your definition is correct and so is mine.
You understand the link you pointed out is saying that understeer is a loss of grip on the front tire, right?
You understand the link you pointed out is saying that understeer is a loss of grip on the front tire, right?
We can argue this down to the tiniest detail but the point is simple: FWD cars have a tendency to turn in less sharply than intended. You can be going 10kmh or 100kmh and the effect is the same.
We can argue this down to the tiniest detail but the point is simple: FWD cars have a tendency to turn in less sharply than intended. You can be going 10kmh or 100kmh and the effect is the same.
I give up.
Back on topic:
“European media have already driven powertrain mules of the new 3-cylinder engine set to be used in the UKL cars. How does a 221-horsepower turbocharged three-banger sound?”
So I assume then that these are FWD layouts stuffed in a regular 1 series?
^Genuine question, what is the difference? Between 4x4 and AWD. Also, 4WD = AWD?
4x4 will have a transfer case and some sort of locking hub/differential setup. Ability to choose 4HI, 4LO, 2HI, neutral.
4wd will act like awd in certain situations, depending on the manufacturer/system. Acceleration from a stop, 4wd. Once you hit a certain speed, 2wd (whether FWD or RWD) depends on the vehicle and the system. 4wd may also have a manual low setting via a push button. 4wd may also act like awd in that it may be on all the time (Full-time 4wd).
AWD = all wheels, all the time. Depending on the system, there may be a power bias to the front/rear. Subarus, for example, are 90/10 for automatic, 50/50 for standard transmissions. At least, they used to be. Whether this remains true, I honestly haven't researched lately.
Some 4wd systems are completely and utterly useless outside of paved road driving. Same goes for many true 4x4 systems when it comes to driving on dry pavement. They're made for slip situations where traction is an issue.
Anyways, that's the brief lesson on 4x4/4wd/awd for today.
__________________ Classifieds Head Moderator Automotive Service Technician
I don't have an anger problem. I have an idiot problem.
“European media have already driven powertrain mules of the new 3-cylinder engine set to be used in the UKL cars. How does a 221-horsepower turbocharged three-banger sound?”
So I assume then that these are FWD layouts stuffed in a regular 1 series?
Great. You made several good points and I learned how to better explain understeer in a fancy technical way.
why do people hate FWD so much?
I know this is kinda obvious, but it all depends.
I'm sure some FWD cars are more fun to drive, and better handling than some RWD cars.
The Crown Vic has an excellent turning radius and if it has RAS its quite stable in turns. And yes, this is from personal experiance. And its a hell of a lot of fun to drive.
Imagine a big 'ol Crown Vic, black on black, going down the highway. The left lane is always clear (; People slow down. Its the "crown vic effect"
WTCC has been dominated by FWD for a while now. Theres Audi's insane FWD TT-RS race car as well. Also, 2012 Superlap, an unlimited class FWD beat out the unlimted AWD class car by 2 seconds a lap... its not a matter of FWD being inferior; or can't handle; or not as fun.
Its just that when you think BMW, you tend to associate it with RWD.
Realistically speaking bmw is probably more concerned about their target market, which is the average joe, not ppl like you and i as car enthusiates. I want bmw to stay true to it's roots to but you gotta be realistic. Car enthusiates only make up about maybe 5% of the Car market. Take the dieing away of manuals as a testament to the new target audience.
Besides, I don't think there is a problem with progress in cars... I personally drive a rwd and thats how it always will be, even if somehow fwds are the fastest shit on the planet. Posted via RS Mobile
after 12 years of owning many cars, from 350hp fwd DSMs to 350hp RWD nissans with many fwd nissans and rwd nissans or hyundais, plus being a mechanic for 5 years and test driving every average consumer car ever made, including everything from police interceptors to ambulances, 68 mustangs to 2013 F350 diesels........
the average consumer, bmw customer or not, will not notice the difference between fwd and rwd...until they get stuck in the snow
there are minor differences in turning radius that can be found, but that has more to do with engine bay layout than wheels putting power to the ground.
if BMW wants to put out fwd cars, all the best to them, if they can lower costs while doing that, they will win huge. they'll still be shitty and expensive to work on, but i support BMWs FWD decision 100%
with all that said, for pure fun outside the average consumers level, rwd is best (imo) rwd gives a feeling that no other layout can give, while fwd and awd can be faster and safer, rwd will always have it's place
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