| Vancouver Auto Chat 2016 VAC Community Head Moderator: Raid3n |
 | | 
11-23-2012, 01:31 PM
|
#1 | | RS.net, where our google ads make absolutely no sense!
Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Rmd
Posts: 924
Thanked 435 Times in 194 Posts
Failed 16 Times in 13 Posts
| Why BMW Needs To Do Front-Drive Cars
Why BMW Needs To Do Front-Drive Cars | The Truth About Cars  Quote:
For many of the brand’s faithful, a front-driver BMW is a revolting prospect. It’s the four-wheeled equivalent of tofu-based bacon or a cigarette without nicotine. But BMW is banking on small cars in a big way – their new front drive architecture, dubbed UKL, will underpin as many as 12 front-drive products from BMW and Mini. And frankly, not doing a front-drive range would be a display of poor judgement on the part of management.
Lest anyone accuse me of apostasy, let’s look at the facts. Mercedes-Benz did a front-drive platform and survived. Audi is making some of the most significant advancements in modern automobile production with the new A3 which uses – you guessed it – the front-drive MQB platform. Both of these auto makers have BMW squarely in the sights. They want to overtake BMW as the number one premium auto maker, and they can easily do it – unless BMW builds a front-drive car of their own.
Notice how the front-drivers from Mercedes and Audi are all compact hatchbacks while the serious stuff, the models we all know and love, use longitudinal layouts and rear or all-wheel drive? That’s not going to change any time soon at those two companies or BMW. All three of them are smart enough to know that their core vehicles need to retain this layout for a number of reasons.
But the post-recession era has seen a whole new segment of luxury vehicles pop up; the premium small car. Many are tempted to write off cars like the Mini, the Fiat 500 and the Opel Adam as limp-wristed compacts for self-concious urbanites who wouldn’t dare condescend to a mainstream economy car. In many parts of the world, it’s not just strivers who buy these cars, but financially secure (and even the truly wealthy) consumers who don’t want or need a larger car. Parking, vehicle taxes, fuel consumption, emissions and other factors can all be taken into account as well, but sales of these cars are on the rise and BMW wants a piece of the action. And it doesn’t look like it will be so terrible. European media have already driven powertrain mules of the new 3-cylinder engine set to be used in the UKL cars. How does a 221-horsepower turbocharged three-banger sound?
The only way to build any kind of car these days is maximize the economies of scale. The development of a new car costs billions, and the best way to amortize this is to do what Volkswagen did – build everything from the Polo to the next-generation Passat on one modular architecture. Ironically, Volkswagen took their cues from BMW, who had a “1.0″ version of the modular platform in effect with the 3-Series and 5-Series.
For BMW to make the investment in an all-new architecture worthwhile, they’re going to have to spread UKL around as much as possible – that means a new 1-Series with sedan, coupe, convertible, hatchback and crossover variants (1-Series GT anyone?), as well as a new MINI and all the variants that entails. This is the kind of thing that makes “enthusiasts” (of the sort with very narrow definitions of what a car should be) roll their eyes, but for better or worse, this is the way things are done in the automotive world these days. And if BMW’s projections are correct, you better get used to it real fast – an interview with Automotive News has one BMW exec stating that UKL vehicles are expected to account for 40 percent of BMW Group’s global sales within a decade.
| Sounds like the same rationale that Porsche used to make the Cayenne SUV. As much as we all dread a FWD 1 series, BMW has made the Mini Cooper for 6 years now, and needs to continue to make FWD to stay profitable.
| 
|  | |
11-23-2012, 01:31 PM
|
#2 | | #deephouse
Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Vancouver
Posts: 4,194
Thanked 4,704 Times in 1,243 Posts
Failed 469 Times in 123 Posts
|
AWD > RWD > FWD
It is all about the feel of the ride.
__________________
/// x AMG | |
| | |
11-23-2012, 01:43 PM
|
#3 | | I subscribe to the Fight Club ONLY
Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Paradise, BC
Posts: 7,044
Thanked 6,792 Times in 2,747 Posts
Failed 255 Times in 141 Posts
|
Quite frankly, I'm surprised such an article even needs to be written in the first place. All things being equal, FWD are cheaper to manufacture than RWD or AWD. BMW (and the majority of other German luxury marques) have been expanding their entry level portfolio in attempt to grow their business. And they already need an FWD platform for the Mini.
Can't understand why we need to be shown stuff as obvious as 1+1=2...  | |
| | |
11-23-2012, 01:47 PM
|
#4 | | Survivor MOD
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,138
Thanked 1,623 Times in 577 Posts
Failed 37 Times in 21 Posts
| Quote:
Originally Posted by knight604  AWD > RWD > FWD
It is all about the feel of the ride. | 4x4 > AWD > RWD > FWD  | |
| | |
11-23-2012, 02:00 PM
|
#5 | | Rs has made me the woman i am today!
Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Burnaby
Posts: 4,074
Thanked 6,800 Times in 1,659 Posts
Failed 213 Times in 86 Posts
|
^Genuine question, what is the difference? Between 4x4 and AWD. Also, 4WD = AWD?
| |
| | |
11-23-2012, 02:03 PM
|
#6 | | #deephouse
Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Vancouver
Posts: 4,194
Thanked 4,704 Times in 1,243 Posts
Failed 469 Times in 123 Posts
|
All wheel drive is always all four wheels. 4x4 you can switch back and forth.
__________________
/// x AMG | |
| | |
11-23-2012, 02:05 PM
|
#7 | | My homepage has been set to RS
Join Date: May 2011 Location: Canada
Posts: 2,397
Thanked 1,715 Times in 595 Posts
Failed 170 Times in 101 Posts
|
Love awd in the winter but its pretty boring on dry pavement.
| |
| | |
11-23-2012, 02:05 PM
|
#8 | | Survivor MOD
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,138
Thanked 1,623 Times in 577 Posts
Failed 37 Times in 21 Posts
| afaik, 4x4 requires some sort of transfer case to be manually engaged in order to get the 4 wheels going. with awd, all the wheels are constantly powered with torque being distributed as needed.
4x4 is also 50/50 where as most awd systems have some sort of power bias.
atleast thats how i learned it  | |
| | |
11-23-2012, 02:30 PM
|
#9 | | F**K YOUR HEAD
Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: vancouver
Posts: 8,718
Thanked 8,153 Times in 1,251 Posts
Failed 643 Times in 181 Posts
| Quote:
Originally Posted by knight604 AWD > RWD > FWD
It is all about the feel of the ride. | AWD Feel > RWD Feel?
| |
| | |
11-23-2012, 02:44 PM
|
#10 | | #savethemanuals
Join Date: May 2008 Location: Richmond
Posts: 3,980
Thanked 2,551 Times in 950 Posts
Failed 106 Times in 40 Posts
| Quote:
Originally Posted by ilvtofu AWD Feel > RWD Feel? | RWD > AWD > FWD
| |
| | | This post thanked by: | bloodmack, broken_arrow, BrRsn, FRStan, JD35, Nechako87, Rikaro, rJZx, Ronith, Shorn, Speed2K, Teh Doucher, TOPEC, wstce92, Z3guy | |
11-23-2012, 02:56 PM
|
#11 | | RS.net, where our google ads make absolutely no sense!
Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Rmd
Posts: 924
Thanked 435 Times in 194 Posts
Failed 16 Times in 13 Posts
| Quote:
Originally Posted by ilvtofu AWD Feel > RWD Feel? | Exactly - RWD feel is much better than AWD - the front wheels are just steering, instead of powering...
| |
| | |
11-23-2012, 03:20 PM
|
#12 | | #deephouse
Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Vancouver
Posts: 4,194
Thanked 4,704 Times in 1,243 Posts
Failed 469 Times in 123 Posts
|
How about in snow :O
__________________
/// x AMG | |
| | |
11-23-2012, 03:32 PM
|
#13 | | Head Moderator
Join Date: Dec 1982 Location: Great White Nor
Posts: 22,661
Thanked 6,462 Times in 2,081 Posts
Failed 98 Times in 51 Posts
| Quote:
Originally Posted by heleu Exactly - RWD feel is much better than AWD - the front wheels are just steering, instead of powering... | The thing is unless you're on a track, 99% of the time you're not using enough power or taking corners with enough speed to even notice the difference between the three systems.
| |
| | |
11-23-2012, 03:48 PM
|
#14 | | #savethemanuals
Join Date: May 2008 Location: Richmond
Posts: 3,980
Thanked 2,551 Times in 950 Posts
Failed 106 Times in 40 Posts
|
Even in normal city driving the difference between RWD and FWD is like night and day. When taking corners FWD hesitates or doesn't seem to want to turn in at all due to understeer. Lots of FWD drivers inevitably "cut the corner" in 90 degree turns when driving. The only FWD car I've driven that doesn't do this as much is the Mini.
| |
| | |
11-23-2012, 03:57 PM
|
#15 | | RS.net, where our google ads make absolutely no sense!
Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Rmd
Posts: 924
Thanked 435 Times in 194 Posts
Failed 16 Times in 13 Posts
| Quote:
Originally Posted by Lomac The thing is unless you're on a track, 99% of the time you're not using enough power or taking corners with enough speed to even notice the difference between the three systems. | I don't agree. I've driven my buddies Mazdaspeed 3 - it's roughly the same weight, power and size of my Legacy. But the torque steer in that car is overwhelming. Even in second gear, I hesitate to go full throttle because the steering tugs so much in either direction. This is amplified going around any corner - it's a slow-in, fast -out type of car.
Yes, I know the speed3 is know for torque steer, but it does make a difference if you are comparing cars that have more power than econoboxes.
| |
| | |
11-23-2012, 04:21 PM
|
#16 | | I STILL don't get it
Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Vancouver
Posts: 483
Thanked 186 Times in 56 Posts
Failed 19 Times in 6 Posts
| Quote:
Originally Posted by Energy Even in normal city driving the difference between RWD and FWD is like night and day. When taking corners FWD hesitates or doesn't seem to want to turn in at all due to understeer. Lots of FWD drivers inevitably "cut the corner" in 90 degree turns when driving. The only FWD car I've driven that doesn't do this as much is the Mini. | I think if you're getting understeer in a corner on the street you probably are going a bit too fast no?
__________________
1992 Civic DX Hatch [daily]
1997 Integra Type-R [track] | |
| | |
11-23-2012, 04:22 PM
|
#17 | | RS Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: GTA
Posts: 29,939
Thanked 11,635 Times in 4,760 Posts
Failed 440 Times in 282 Posts
| Quote:
Originally Posted by knight604 How about in snow :O | The debate about RWD performing in snow? I would say often misunderstood.
Throw on some snow tires, don't drive like a retard and you're set. Anybody else who says otherwise is a noob at driving, retarded and should take what is called public transit.
| 
| | |
11-23-2012, 04:31 PM
|
#18 | | Willing to sell body for a few minutes on RS
Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Victoria
Posts: 10,600
Thanked 5,049 Times in 1,866 Posts
Failed 185 Times in 100 Posts
| Quote:
Originally Posted by heleu I don't agree. I've driven my buddies Mazdaspeed 3 - it's roughly the same weight, power and size of my Legacy. But the torque steer in that car is overwhelming. Even in second gear, I hesitate to go full throttle because the steering tugs so much in either direction. This is amplified going around any corner - it's a slow-in, fast -out type of car.
Yes, I know the speed3 is know for torque steer, but it does make a difference if you are comparing cars that have more power than econoboxes. | Lift some fucking weights.
__________________
1968 Mustang Coupe
2008.5 Mazdaspeed 3
1997 GMC Sonoma ZR2
2014 F150 5.0L XTR 4x4
A vehicle for all occasions
| |
| | |
11-23-2012, 04:35 PM
|
#19 | | #savethemanuals
Join Date: May 2008 Location: Richmond
Posts: 3,980
Thanked 2,551 Times in 950 Posts
Failed 106 Times in 40 Posts
| Quote:
Originally Posted by N8 I think if you're getting understeer in a corner on the street you probably are going a bit too fast no? | It has nothing to do with the speed even if RWD can carry a higher speed through a corner.
Try taking a 90 degree corner and try to turn into the curb lane with a FWD vs RWD car. Even going 30km/h you'll find that the FWD car has to brake earlier and turn in just feels sloppy. You can actually feel that you are being pulled through the corner as opposed to being pushed through it.
Of course none of this matters if you're just DDing or don't want much excitement in your drive.
Last edited by Energy; 11-23-2012 at 04:41 PM.
| |
| | |
11-23-2012, 04:57 PM
|
#20 | | 14 dolla balla aint got nothing on me!
Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Maple Ridge
Posts: 654
Thanked 279 Times in 95 Posts
Failed 47 Times in 13 Posts
| Quote:
Originally Posted by Energy Even in normal city driving the difference between RWD and FWD is like night and day. When taking corners FWD hesitates or doesn't seem to want to turn in at all due to understeer. Lots of FWD drivers inevitably "cut the corner" in 90 degree turns when driving. The only FWD car I've driven that doesn't do this as much is the Mini. | Understeer is the front tires no longer holding grip. Your saying that you are breaking loose the front tires just around corners while normal city driving?
| |
| | |
11-23-2012, 05:04 PM
|
#21 | | :: Sells McLarens, Not tofu :okay: ::
Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: vancouver
Posts: 10,756
Thanked 11,826 Times in 3,334 Posts
Failed 211 Times in 89 Posts
|
rwd seems to feel more natural around a turn.. at least from the rwds I have owned so far..
__________________
13' Nissan DBA-R35 GT-R Black Ed - Black met. - "Sophia"
90' Honda EF Civic HB // 04' Honda Pilot Granite
- The Drinker of Many Many Coffees @ McLaren Vancouver
| |
| | |
11-23-2012, 05:05 PM
|
#22 | | Rs has made me the man i am today!
Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: 604
Posts: 3,023
Thanked 688 Times in 190 Posts
Failed 22 Times in 10 Posts
|
I was test driving cars this summer and was excited to drive my first rear-drive car (Genesis Coupe). I didn't notice a big difference from driving a front wheel drive for my entire life. Maybe it was because of the heavy car or traction control voodoo. I wasn't pushing it too much around corners tho. I found the Veloster Turbo just as fun for DD-ing.
The BMW thing is kinda funny because they bragged rear-wheel-drive in ads during the 90s. But it makes sense. FWD can be ok too and they're not converting any M3s or performance models to front wheel drive so the only impact is on entry-level cars.
| |
| | |
11-23-2012, 05:14 PM
|
#23 | | 14 dolla balla aint got nothing on me!
Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Maple Ridge
Posts: 654
Thanked 279 Times in 95 Posts
Failed 47 Times in 13 Posts
| Quote:
Originally Posted by tofu1413 rwd seems to feel more natural around a turn.. at least from the rwds I have owned so far.. | Totally agree, Stock for Stock RWD cars generally “feel” better. Part of that is the feeling and control of being “shoved” rather than “pulled”, but add to it that most RWD cars today make a point of being a bit more performance oriented than your average grocery getting FWD hatchback. This is more about suspension setup and chassis stiffness. But I’m not sure I understand how someone would be getting understeer during normal city driving in a corner.
If your comparing the turn in response at 25-30kmkm per hour of a stock Honda Civic and a stock BMW, the BMW will always have a sharper turn in and better steering response, but not because of an understeer situation. Or at least, it SHOULDNT be becouse of understeer.
| |
| | |
11-23-2012, 06:01 PM
|
#24 | | :: Sells McLarens, Not tofu :okay: ::
Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: vancouver
Posts: 10,756
Thanked 11,826 Times in 3,334 Posts
Failed 211 Times in 89 Posts
|
yep. feels more natural than front driving wheels: driven 3 series xi and rwd models and the 4matic / rwd benzes.. rwd just feels nicer.
Posted via RS Mobile | |
| | |
11-23-2012, 06:13 PM
|
#25 | | 14 dolla balla aint got nothing on me!
Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Vancouver
Posts: 694
Thanked 818 Times in 177 Posts
Failed 88 Times in 27 Posts
|
lol is everyone in here a race car driver or something? It really shouldn't be possible for one to experience the difference in fwd and rwd handling. I've personally driven a 4wd for one year and a rwd for two years and I can say there is little to no difference in cornering or anything else in city conditions. Electric aids such as the new electric power steering numbs the road feel even more so which I believe contributes the most to 'feel'. Suspensions and everything else is for track use only, hence why most manufactures are moving toward torsion beam rear suspensions. Cause in reality there is no difference; evident in the Volkswagon Jetta. So to sum it up, no, rwd and fwd will not change driving dynamics for the daily commuter. And to bring this back on topic, I think it'd be great to have a fwd in the BMW line up besides the cooper.
| |
| | | |
Posting Rules
| You may not post new threads You may not post replies You may not post attachments You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
| | |
All times are GMT -8. The time now is 10:05 PM.
|
You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!
The banners on the left side and below do not show for registered users!
