Back to PST in BC Tax on Private sale of cars remains @ 12%

[dachinesedude]

taxing a used car purchase is bullshit from the start anyways, doesnt matter if it's 7% or 12%

[Yodamaster]

Originally Posted by UFO

Yeah, its a cash cow and yes its BS. But it isn't up to you to decide and justify which tax you should have to pay and which tax you shouldn't. And by circumventing the used car tax you are also commiting fraud and forcing everybody else who is law-abiding to buck up and pay your portion as well.

How can you call Canada any kind of democracy if such a fallacy of a law/tax is not questionable by it's people?

What you just outlined is a dictatorship.


Enough people feel that the tax surrounding used cars is a scam, and by definition as a democracy, we have a right to reject it's ideals and goals along with everybody else that thinks alike.

I don't owe the government anything when I buy or sell a car in private, they did not make the car, they did not put the effort in to transfer it.

You don't pay taxes on the private sale of:

-Bikes
-Game Consoles
-Chairs
-Toilets
-Clown Hats
-HKS Turbos

But you expect me to pay tax on a used car?

The government can collect it's money from something else that is actually taxable, and I'll have no problem paying.

[lowside67]

Originally Posted by Yodamaster

How can you call Canada any kind of democracy if such a fallacy of a law/tax is not questionable by it's people? What you just outlined is a dictatorship.

Enough people feel that the tax surrounding used cars is a scam, and by definition as a democracy, we have a right to reject it's ideals and goals along with everybody else that thinks alike.

I don't owe the government anything when I buy or sell a car in private, they did not make the car, they did not put the effort in to transfer it.

You don't pay taxes on the private sale of: Bikes, Game Consoles, Chairs, Toilets, Clown Hats, HKS Turbos

But you expect me to pay tax on a used car?

The government can collect it's money from something else that is actually taxable, and I'll have no problem paying.

I absolutely agree that you have the right to disagree, you have the right to vote for somebody else who opposes taxing used cars, you even have the right to pick your shit up and move somewhere where they don't tax used cars. What you don't have the right to do is say "paying taxes on used cars is BS, I live in Canada, fuck this I'm not paying" and then undervalue and gift cars when you buy and sell.

I also love the brilliant idea that you are okay with collecting money from something else... ie raise taxes on some things to help offset reduced taxation on other things which was the whole point of switching to HST in the first place, which you also seem to have opposed...

Mark

[Yodamaster]

Originally Posted by lowside67

I absolutely agree that you have the right to disagree, you have the right to vote for somebody else who opposes taxing used cars, you even have the right to pick your shit up and move somewhere where they don't tax used cars. What you don't have the right to do is say "paying taxes on used cars is BS, I live in Canada, fuck this I'm not paying" and then undervalue and gift cars when you buy and sell.

I also love the brilliant idea that you are okay with collecting money from something else... ie raise taxes on some things to help offset reduced taxation on other things which was the whole point of switching to HST in the first place, which you also seem to have opposed...

Mark

I didn't oppose the principles of the HST, I opposed the way in which the government introduced it, which could have been handled differently.

I'll bet that most locals wouldn't have wanted to lynch the government if the topic of HST was brought forward before hand, and discussed in detail with the public. Instead, the public had to scramble for answers that were not clearly available.

The government actually posted the numbers regarding gift cars, saying that it was an exceedingly large number, and then said that they didn't know why it was happening. Well, instead of sitting around and telling us how much jail time we could get for doing it, how about consulting the public on why we hate taxes on used vehicles, and what we could do to cover whatever the government was hoping to earn.

Note that the HST would have been a perfect time to bring it up, and yet they hurried it through the door without telling us what it was to cover.

[UFO]

Originally Posted by Yodamaster

I don't owe the government anything when I buy or sell a car in private, they did not make the car, they did not put the effort in to transfer it.

By your logic, the government only deserves tax because they made something or put the effort into selling or transferring something? I totally agree with you that tax on used goods is BS, but it generates tax income to go into the overall tax pool which gets spent on things for ALL OF US. If you refuse to pay the taxes the government deems necessary, then naturally somebody else will have to pick up the share that you should have paid. Or you'll have to pay higher taxes on your income, property, sales tax, doesn't matter. Just accept that at the end of the day the government will dip their hand in your pocket and take the money they need, no ifs and buts about it.

You don't owe the government, you owe everybody else who has to pick up the slack because you are evading taxes. If/when you get busted for dodging taxes on used cars, you can tell them it was your democratic right to not pay, let us know how that goes

[UFO]

Originally Posted by Yodamaster

I'll bet that most locals wouldn't have wanted to lynch the government if the topic of HST was brought forward before hand, and discussed in detail with the public. Instead, the public had to scramble for answers that were not clearly available.

The answers were clearly, and easily available, for anybody that cared enough to look for it. For those that did not care enough to look, they would not have partcipated in a public discussion re:HST anyways and most would have hated it from the beginning.

Most (not all) that voted HST out was because things that did not get taxed before were now taxed, and they were angry with the governement so they wanted to send them a message. Well good on you, you sent your message, and now we're going to get the bill for it too. Simple as that.

[Gridlock]

Taxes are a necessary evil. I think we all get that. There are a small minority that don't, but we ignore them.

So. Necessary evil. Check.

Now, within that evil, can't we have a chance to discuss just what type of evil that might form?

I'm ok with a 5% GST on cars. It's a goods AND services tax...it sucks, but what are you going to do. Evil. Necessary. Check.

I'm even ok with the 7% on new goods made for sale. Buy a new tv? Cool. 12%. A little goes to the Ontario fucks, and some to the BC fucks. Evil. Necessary. Check.

What I do have a problem with is the entire design of the HST system. I went through this years ago in NS. Hated it there. PS, the tax rate is a nice 15% courtesy of the NDP gov't that was elected, so take that as a small sign.

First, I like to have a little bit of conversation about major policy changes in the region in which I live. You may go ahead and ram it through anyway, but a little conversation makes me feel like I was at least involved a little in the conversation. Makes me feel like its trying to make an attempt at being a democracy. Just me.

I'd like a chance to voice an opinion. One: I think 12% across the board is high. (I'm going to come to the 10% lie soon enough) Two: I think the wealth distribution effects are disastrous. To me, and just to me, I REALLY loathed the fact that they were calling it revenue neutral by increasing the rebates to low income. If its rev neutral, why are we doing it? Cost savings? Not a chance. Efficiency plus a little gravy, more likely.

Most important. I lost faith in the government elected to run the province. A lot of people did. The lower general taxes stunt was horribly executed. The promise to lower it to 10% was better, but too late. I no longer believed that they were trying to execute policy for the betterment of the province, I felt that they were now trying to keep their jobs.

And for me, that is a scary moment. In Canada, in our political system, we lack the checks and balances apprach of the US. Benefit? I think we can actually get things done quickly. Drawback? People can accomplish some fucked up things very quickly, and its hard to roll it back. There are limited free votes, meaning a LOT of policy goes down party lines. Have a majority gov't, and they can develop and execute anything they want quite quickly. You can have a loud, screaming opposition that votes against it, but they are effectively powerless to stop it.

So, can I see benefits to the HST system? Yes. I can also see drawbacks. My services, that I sell in my small business went up 7%. Plain and simple.

It was poorly implemented, the recall was a bizarre event and the entire situation is a mess beyond belief. BUT..it was poorly implemented because it was rushed through on a political basis.

So when I read on RS that the "idiots" that voted out the HST don't know what the fuck they were thinking, I say 'thanks'! Idiot..right here, and dude, I'm thinking the exact same thing of the ones that were so blinded as to want to keep it. It was fucked up before it was even announced. The very foundation of the idea was screwed...so it could never be portrayed as a benefit.

[Yodamaster]

Originally Posted by UFO

By your logic, the government only deserves tax because they made something or put the effort into selling or transferring something? I totally agree with you that tax on used goods is BS, but it generates tax income to go into the overall tax pool which gets spent on things for ALL OF US. If you refuse to pay the taxes the government deems necessary, then naturally somebody else will have to pick up the share that you should have paid. Or you'll have to pay higher taxes on your income, property, sales tax, doesn't matter. Just accept that at the end of the day the government will dip their hand in your pocket and take the money they need, no ifs and buts about it.

You don't owe the government, you owe everybody else who has to pick up the slack because you are evading taxes. If/when you get busted for dodging taxes on used cars, you can tell them it was your democratic right to not pay, let us know how that goes

No, that was in specific reference to used cars, I simply don't see why they deserve to take 12% tax off the private sale of a used car.

Taxes on property, the government maintains overall ownership of the land, I don't have a problem with paying to stay on the land of my choosing.

Taxes on healthcare, the government takes care of all the hassle surrounding healthcare for a fee that I am willing to pay.

Taxes on the sale of new items, good enough for me, one time fee that takes care of a lot of services in Canada/BC.

I don't have a problem with taxes that make sense, nobody does. It just so happens that many people feel that it's unfair to have to pay taxes on a used vehicle over and over again. I understand that offsetting the expense to another tax means that I'm paying for it anyway, but I do not like the idea that my private purchases/sales are taxable, the word "private" in private sale is symbolic of literal privacy to me. I do not appreciate having to pay more for a vehicle when it's actual value is to be determined by two individuals that are willing to trade, I feel as though it's an intrusion by the government on my personal space.

As I've already said, I didn't really care about the HST, but I would at least have expected a discussion regarding what to tax at 12% under the HST with the public (and what that extra money would help pay for elsewhere). They didn't do that, and now I'm still pissed off because they increased my personal issue up a notch to 12% without giving me a good reason.

I don't have a problem with paying more to take care of public services, just leave that part of my personal life out of it, I want to buy privately without worrying about taxes. I don't hate anyone, I don't really want to take money away that could help others, but I feel as though this is an invasion of my privacy.