The Official 2013 "Great Translink RageDebate" thread

[Mr.HappySilp]

A group that opposes higher taxes is calling on the province to “outright reject” a plan by Metro Vancouver mayors to raise money for TransLink by hiking the PST by a half per cent.

The regional provincial sales tax boost is among the funding recommendations for sustaining and expanding transit that the Mayors Council on Transportation sent to Transportation Minister Mary Polak at her request.

Jordan Bateman of the Canadian Taxpayers Federation said the recommended hike should be rejected and TransLink should cut more from their own budget before looking for more revenue.

“The taxpayer cannot bear any more of the burden,” Bateman said. “To claim that they need $750 million more when audits have shown that one out of every $10 is inefficiently spent, that’s a real stretch.

“Future megaprojects will have to wait until the economy rebounds,” he added.

Council chair Richard Walton, mayor of North Vancouver district, said a half-per-cent slice of the PST would generate $250 million a year. Walton said sales taxes are used around the world to fund transit.

“It’s very, very common,” he said.

He agreed TransLink needs to keep its own operating costs low, but said that’s not enough to sustain or expand transit services as demand grows over the years.

Walton said other proposals include the unpopular vehicle levy, first proposed in 1999 but never implemented, or the use of revenue from the provincial carbon tax.

And Walton said a viable solution to transit funding can come through road pricing, which is becoming popular in European cities and which gives drivers choices and options on how much they pay by how much they drive.

He is to meet next week with Polak to discuss the proposals.

The Province is awaiting a callback from the minister.

Read more: Metro Vancouver mayors want to fund transit with sales-tax hike

Metro Vancouver mayors want to fund transit with sales-tax hike

Why I take the transit and I think this is a stupid idea......... If you are losing money with current operation why the hell do you need to expand........... Keep the current system under budget then talk aobut expanding......

[Akinari]

Seriously, our government isn't poor. Where the fuck is all the money going to? Oh right, their own pockets.

Takes less than a year to begin a bridge-building project with tolls, takes more than 10 years to fix a shitty transit system.

[GLOW]

Originally Posted by akinari-kun

Where the fuck is all the money going to?

paying transit customer service reps to stand around at $25-30/hr

[Tapioca]

Originally Posted by GLOW

paying transit customer service reps to stand around at $25-30/hr

What's stopping you from applying, then? Instead of complaining, then why don't you get on the gravy train?

Oh right, because maybe it's a thankless job with no opportunities for advancement? Even if you were to pay them 12/hour, you wouldn't exactly save that much money considering that there are maybe 100-150 of these employees in the system? Over 25 years, that would save less than $100 million which wouldn't even buy you 2 km of Skytrain track.

Translink should just cut service by 50% and lay-off admin staff and see what happens. The political backlash would compel the province to provide a more sustainable funding model.
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[murd0c]

Where's the carbon tax money going? Thats what I want to fucken know!!

[Tapioca]

Originally Posted by murd0c

Where's the carbon tax money going? Thats what I want to fucken know!!

It's going into general revenue.

BC's income taxes and corporate taxes are some of the lowest in the country. What grade school doesn't teach people, unfortunately, is that there's no such thing as a free lunch. After all, the government has to pay for health care, education, and all of the other services that people don't realize we need until they are taken away some way or another.

You cut taxes in one area, you have to raise them in another area to maintain the same level of services. If you want to cut services on the other hand...
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[Hondaracer]

Tax the people who USE transit, increase fares and so on.

[7seven]

Translink, City of Vancouver and Fed Gov't spent $97,600 the Main Street Poodle. So Translink is short on cash as usual but can still find money to help fund this piece of crap on Main St



When asked by CTV about it, all Translink said was that it was part of improving Transit corridors and had no further comment.....ummmmm really???

[Tapioca]

Fares have already been increased. If you raise fares to reflect their true cost, then each trip becomes cost prohibitive which would basically render the buses and Skytrains useless because no one would take them. But hey, who cares about unused capital, right? They're just sunk costs.

And screw the poor and those poor saps who can't afford a private car. It's their fault that they don't have a way to get around, right?

If we tax transit users, then road users need to be taxed as well. Tolls should become the norm and so should congestion pricing. And ICBC is not a tax. I have no problem with user pay - the trouble is that most people believe that they are paying the true cost of maintaining the road network through insurance, gas taxes, and property taxes when they are not.
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[vantrip]

Now they can't even jack up fuel tax cas of diminishing return gotta find the money elsewhere to keep their pockets filled

[JesseBlue]

toll everything..including using toilets...flushing? tax that too...it'll make billions!

[Tapioca]

Originally Posted by vantrip

Now they can't even jack up fuel tax cas of diminishing return gotta find the money elsewhere to keep their pockets filled

That's why a vehicle levy or a proposed sales tax increase are the most sensible options. Or, cut services.

And who's "they"? Those greedy fat cats at Translink? You think people who work for a public organization, who pay taxes like you and I, willingly screw the rest of the public out of their hard-earned money?

The provincial government already did an audit and it didn't have enough in there to warrant a response. But, maybe everyone is in on it - the politicians, the fat cat bureaucrats, the unionized bus drivers, etc. - they're all in it with each other to screw the hard-working public over.
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[Yodamaster]

It all comes down to the fact that the GVRD has grown too fast.

Businesses exist to make money, and Translink isn't, otherwise they wouldn't need another bailout (that's what it is). You would think that the growth of the GVRD would be good for all business, but for some, only when it happens naturally.

1986 happened, and suddenly Translink was swamped with demand, demand that required a constant flow of new projects to sustain. Fast forward to today, and we simply have too many people to service, compared to how fast Translink can build the infrastructure and pay it off on it's own.

And that is why we have to bail them out yet again, because they didn't have the time to pay off their projects on their own, the profits from fares aren't enough anymore. Now, they have to borrow, from us.

Other than a few instances of poor decision making, Translink is not to blame, the growth of the GVRD is. You have to pay more, so that the GVRD can continue to operate at it's (still) inflated pace. A large portion of our workforce and business is reliant on Translink's services, workers go to work, and businesses thrive off of the flow of consumers delivered by the busses and trains of Translink.

You can inhale air for as long as you want, but it only makes the need to exhale more urgent.

[RRxtar]

So wait, they want me to pay more PST, living in Kelowna, so college kids and hobos can ride the bus in Vancouver?

[GLOW]

Originally Posted by Tapioca

What's stopping you from applying, then? Instead of complaining, then why don't you get on the gravy train?

Oh right, because maybe it's a thankless job with no opportunities for advancement? Even if you were to pay them 12/hour, you wouldn't exactly save that much money considering that there are maybe 100-150 of these employees in the system? Over 25 years, that would save less than $100 million which wouldn't even buy you 2 km of Skytrain track.

comment wasn't meant to be so serious hence the but sure i'll bite as to the other comment.

you're right as to why i won't, b/c i have a formal education and career and with some job satisfaction. if all i had was a HS diploma i'd totally apply because i know i'd be very overpaid. at that wage they make more than many technologists and jr engineers.

if you're short on cash you gotta start somewhere to make up for it...unless you're in a position to tax people i guess...

[Liquid_o2]

Originally Posted by Hondaracer

Tax the people who USE transit, increase fares and so on.

So if I don't drive and solely take Skytrain, then why should I pay taxes for maintenance of local roads and further infrastructure improvements?

Translink is not the most efficient system when it comes to using their money, but whenever a thread about transit comes around, the ignorance on RS comes right now.

The City of Vancouver is spending $9.4 million on re-paving roads and $8.9 million on the Granville Bridge Rehabilitation in 2013. You think all Vancouverites think money should be spent on this? Only people who use the Granville Bridge should pay for it according to this logic.

Metro Vancouver needs to stay pro-active and continue to build transit infrastructure before things get worse then they already are with commute times. I love to drive, but not if it's at 5 km/hr due to traffic volumes. Better transit infrastructure means less cars on the road for me.

People have to get on board and understand that you can't have a massively growing metro region, and want to continue having a strong quality of life, but don't want to pay for it. Everyone wants new bridges, new transit lines, nicely paved roads... but when it comes to pay for it... raise taxes? NO WAY!

I'd like to see members of RS come up with the city's operating and capital budget and see how they would do.

Edit: Personally I think raising money should come from a variety of sources. The biggest should be from income tax. So many countries use income tax for transit infrastructure, not sure why this doesn't occur much in Canada. Instead it goes straight to the Feds.

[Tapioca]

Originally Posted by GLOW

comment wasn't meant to be so serious hence the but sure i'll bite as to the other comment.

you're right as to why i won't, b/c i have a formal education and career and with some job satisfaction. if all i had was a HS diploma i'd totally apply because i know i'd be very overpaid. at that wage they make more than many technologists and jr engineers.

if you're short on cash you gotta start somewhere to make up for it...unless you're in a position to tax people i guess...

People might think they just stand around and do nothing, but when a situation happens on the system, they have to handle it.

What if someone collapses on a train? What if someone threatens to jump onto the tracks? Sure, maybe someone should only be paid $12/hour to know first aid, to de-escalate situations, etc. But, if you had those skills, would you do the job for $12/hour?

Private security guards get paid anywhere from $12-20. Some are intelligent and resourceful people, but others are poor communicators and have poor conflict resolution skills. If people think that the latter is what we should have in terms of customer service on the system, then, by all means cut wages.

Metro Vancouver needs to stay pro-active and continue to build transit infrastructure before things get worse then they already are with commute times. I love to drive, but not if it's at 5 km/hr due to traffic volumes. Better transit infrastructure means less cars on the road for me.

People have to get on board and understand that you can't have a massively growing metro region, and want to continue having a strong quality of life, but don't want to pay for it. Everyone wants new bridges, new transit lines, nicely paved roads... but when it comes to pay for it... raise taxes? NO WAY!

The common line of thinking is that if the bureaucrats only managed to cut costs and their salaries that everything would be solved. The fact is that salaries and administrative costs are really a small piece of the pie (unless of course, you want to hire UBC urban planning students and fresh grads from the Sauder School of Business to run the place and hire-fire them in 2 year cycles.) If the BC government had anything to really criticize from the recent audit of Translink they commissioned, then they would have jumped on it and made Translink look bad for political gain. The reality is that there wasn't much to criticize.

You either make do with what you have and cut services, or you have to pay what it costs to maintain the system. The problem is that no politician or decision-maker has the courage to clearly explain the choices to the public.

[pastarocket]

Translink is trying to keep operating costs down?? Really? What a joke!

Part of the sales tax hike is used to line the pockets of transit cops hired to work on existing and future Skytrain stations.

After I read a Translink Financial information report about their transit police costs, I was angry about how much these fare checkers make each year. Unbelievable.

Transit cops sure get paid for overtime:

A sample of Transit police salaries (Constable No 39 in the report also reported over a thousand bucks in expenses in 2011):

SOUTH COAST BRITISH COLUMBIA TRANSPORTATION AUTHORITY
SCHEDULE SHOWING THE REMUNERATION AND EXPENSES
PAID IN RESPECT OF EACH EMPLOYEE
FOR THE YEAR ENDED DECEMBER 31, 2011

Constable 25

98,210

Constable 26
125,689

Constable 33
88,326

Constable 34
106,808

Constable 35
101,764

Constable 36
88,857
-
Constable 37
90,843

Constable 38
86,184

Constable 39
87,600
1,062
Constable 40
108,647

Constable 41
82,783

Constable 42
95,986

Constable 43
86,928

Constable 58
99,038

Constable 59
117,427
Constable 60
84,523

Constable 61
85,877
-
Constable 62
83,302

[twitchyzero]

I almost forgot how fucking stupid it was to have 14.5% in sales taxes

DO ITT

everyone's just gonna cross-border shop even more.

[wingies]

Dont forget these numbers from gas tax

74 cents – Actual Gasoline
15.87 cents – Marketing/Service
10 cents – Federal Tax
5.56 cents – Carbon Tax (Managed by the Provincial government)
17 cents - Translink Tax (For Vancouver’s public transportation system)
6.75 cents – BC Transportation Authority Tax
1.75 cents – Provincial Tax
6.87 cents – Goods and Services Tax (GST)

based on 1.37/L gas prices

WHOOP WHOOPP!

[Graeme S]

Sigh. Yet another reason I want them to split Translink Public Transportation from Translink Road Maintenance.


Why is it that busses are always exclusively blamed for the shortfalls and nobody seems to remember that they're also responsible for maintaining our incredibly shitty roads systems?

Also, just to let you guys know, because the price of fuel increased people have been driving less. This means Translink has actually been getting LESS revenue from gas taxes than it did a few years ago. One of the reasons they need more money is because the price of fuel has actually caused people to cut back on driving. Which means that they lost one of their sources of funding which they had previously believed was relatively stable.


In the other Translink thread, you'll find a lot of really good information posted by Mindbomber about how the translink audit actually didn't find that Translink "Was squandering ten cents on the dollar", but was in fact doing a really decent job and that most of the Auditor's suggestions basically boiled down to "Well, Tranlink and X other agency should sit down and try and see what they can do to change this thing we've analyzed, and we think they can probably save Y dollars". Then they came out saying "Look at all the savings we found!" ...which are just estimates of what possibly might be saved if the negotiations are done and over, if they take place at all.

[Gridlock]

Originally Posted by murd0c

Where's the carbon tax money going? Thats what I want to fucken know!!

The story is, it gets turned around and sent back out to BC residents, and is supposed to be revenue neutral.

In reality, its wealth distribution, and its poorly done.

I'm all for a carbon tax...make bad environmental decisions more costly, but to be the only jurisdiction to do it out of 10 provinces, 3 territories, 50 states and 3 US protectorates in North America, it makes us less competitive.

[MindBomber]

Originally Posted by pastarocket

Translink is trying to keep operating costs down?? Really? What a joke!

Part of the sales tax hike is used to line the pockets of transit cops hired to work on existing and future Skytrain stations.

After I read a Translink Financial information report about their transit police costs, I was angry about how much these fare checkers make each year. Unbelievable.

Transit cops sure get paid for overtime:

A sample of Transit police salaries (Constable No 39 in the report also reported over a thousand bucks in expenses in 2011):

Transit Police Constables are former RCMP, VPD, DPD, and NWPD members, and the remuneration they earn is comparable to that offered by other forces.

Transit Police, SkyTrain attendants, and Coast Mountain security, are all authorized to perform fare checks, but the overall job description and required skills differ substantially, to say the least.

Originally Posted by wingies

Dont forget these numbers from gas tax

74 cents – Actual Gasoline
15.87 cents – Marketing/Service
10 cents – Federal Tax
5.56 cents – Carbon Tax (Managed by the Provincial government)
17 cents - Translink Tax (For Vancouver’s public transportation system)
6.75 cents – BC Transportation Authority Tax
1.75 cents – Provincial Tax
6.87 cents – Goods and Services Tax (GST)

based on 1.37/L gas prices

WHOOP WHOOPP!

Your post is inaccurate. Translink is not dedicated exclusively to "Vancouver's" public transportation system, it maintains the Major Road Network, including assets such as the Golden Ears Bridge, Pattullo Bridge, Knight Street Bridge, and Roberts Bank Corridor project. Maintaining the Golden Ears Bridge is one of Translinks single largest annual expenditures.

Originally Posted by Graeme S

In the other Translink thread, you'll find a lot of really good information posted by Mindbomber about how the translink audit actually didn't find that Translink "Was squandering ten cents on the dollar", but was in fact doing a really decent job and that most of the Auditor's suggestions basically boiled down to "Well, Tranlink and X other agency should sit down and try and see what they can do to change this thing we've analyzed, and we think they can probably save Y dollars". Then they came out saying "Look at all the savings we found!" ...which are just estimates of what possibly might be saved if the negotiations are done and over, if they take place at all.

Correct, Translink is one of the most efficient transit operators in North America. Translink not only operates with over twice the efficiency of Seattles system, but actually achieves very comparable numbers to New York City despite serving a region with a fraction of the population density.

Graeme, may I suggest changing this threads title to the "2013 Translink News" thread. Keeping all the information in one place seemed to work very well last year.

[Gridlock]

Originally Posted by MindBomber

Maintaining the Golden Ears Bridge is one of Translinks single largest annual expenditures.

subsidizing the tolls you mean. another great deal brokered by BC!

[Graeme S]

So say we all.