Business School-eMBA

[skiiipi]

Don't know if this belong here or the campus section, but mod feel free to move if you feel the need to.

So recently I have learned that certain schools in Canada (such as Queen's) will accept candidates into their executive MBA program WITHOUT an undergraduate degree. This is very enticing to me as I've been working part time towards my Bachelor's degree for a LONG time now. Due to my full time work commitments, I have only been taking 1 or 2 classes per semester ( and took a few semesters off as well).

I am a long ways from completing my Bachelor's degree, and if I can get directly accepted into an eMBA program, it would definitely be a beneficial short cut for me.

So, the program requires the applicant to have min 8 years of work experience, with in 3 years in management, and a decent GMAT score.

So here is my question, I have over 8 years over full time work experience, with the last 5 in retail management. I'm not sure if my experience is sufficient to be considered for a program like this. Ie. is "Retail Management" the type of management experience that will be considered for business school?

Secondly, I haven't done any math related courses since 1st year applied sciences at UBC, and it has been 8 years since then, my plan is to devote the next 18 month to prep for the GMAT while gaining additional management experience, and look at getting into the program for 2014. I don't think I'm academically strong enough to be able to pick up a GMAT practice exam and work my way through it, so how do you guys recommend my prep? Should I start with some basic high school math review, and then go into practice exams? I do plan on taking a few of those exam prep classes 3-4 month before the actual exam, but up until then, I want to do as much self prep as possible to get myself back into the groove.

Any general feedback/suggestion about this would be great. Its been a long time since I've studied for an exam, I've mostly been taking business classes at a 1st and 2nd year level the past few years, and I really haven't had to devote much time to studying to get by with a decent grade. So this process to prep for a GMAT might be a shock for me.

So I guess my overall questions would be, is my plan "plausible" do I have sufficient work experience to be considered for a B.School program w/o an Undergrad degree? and having been out of school for so many years, how hard will the prep process be for GMAT?

Thanks in advance for all the help

[sexyaccord]

prob best to talk to the program advisor at the school you are interested in.

[DaFonz]

Does retail management translate into:

a) You worked at a minimum wage job at a store and worked your way up to management? Starting position here likely... barista, salesperson, cashier, etc (minimum wage)
b) You work in a corporate division (eg, FP&A, Sales, Marketing, etc) and moved your way up the ranks? Starting position here likely analyst, associate, etc. ($30k+ salary)

[skiiipi]

Originally Posted by DaFonz

Does retail management translate into:

a) You worked at a minimum wage job at a store and worked your way up to management? Starting position here likely... barista, salesperson, cashier, etc (minimum wage)
b) You work in a corporate division (eg, FP&A, Sales, Marketing, etc) and moved your way up the ranks? Starting position here likely analyst, associate, etc. ($30k+ salary)

Scenario A) for me, started part time, then moved to full time and into management in 06.
In my early days 06-08, I had about 10-12 part time staff reporting to me, and 1 full time staff reporting to me.
For the past 4 years, I managed anywhere from 50-200 staff, and approx 5-6 direct full time report with at least 3 management level employees reporting to me.
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[DaFonz]

Originally Posted by skiiipi

Scenario A) for me, started part time, then moved to full time and into management in 06.
In my early days 06-08, I had about 10-12 part time staff reporting to me, and 1 full time staff reporting to me.
For the past 4 years, I managed anywhere from 50-200 staff, and approx 5-6 direct full time report with at least 3 management level employees reporting to me.
Posted via RS Mobile

An eMBA is a waste of time and a waste of money for you. The recruiting staff may say it's GREAT for you because they want your tuition (business school is a HUGE business), but here's the real deal.

There's two types of MBAs (I'm simplifying here). Your standard full-time MBA and your eMBA (I'm going to group part-time MBAs here).

The MBA is designed for career switchers who want to go into a completely different industry. The MBA was created initially for engineers who wanted to get a business background. You get access to full recruiting here and have dedicated career resources. If you're a career switcher, this is probably the way to go.

An eMBA is a completely different beast. It's designed for executives who have already made it to the top and are looking for more letters behind their name plus an opportunity to network with other like-minded executives. It's not designed to help people like you (I'm assuming here) switch careers. You aren't going to benefit because:

• It's $90k and your employer will likely not pay for it
• You're out of your league
• Your experience isn't very relevant (http://business.queensu.ca/mba_progr...ss_stories.php)
• It's for old people (http://business.queensu.ca/mba_progr...iles/index.php)

The GMAT doesn't require 18 months to prep for. I prepped for it in a week and got a 700 because I finished my verbal in 10 minutes (oops).

You need to figure out what you want to do and work backwards.

Paying for education for the sake of getting education or for "more opportunities" is a waste of time and money.

[skiiipi]

Originally Posted by DaFonz

An eMBA is a waste of time and a waste of money for you. The recruiting staff may say it's GREAT for you because they want your tuition (business school is a HUGE business), but here's the real deal.

There's two types of MBAs (I'm simplifying here). Your standard full-time MBA and your eMBA (I'm going to group part-time MBAs here).

The MBA is designed for career switchers who want to go into a completely different industry. The MBA was created initially for engineers who wanted to get a business background. You get access to full recruiting here and have dedicated career resources. If you're a career switcher, this is probably the way to go.

An eMBA is a completely different beast. It's designed for executives who have already made it to the top and are looking for more letters behind their name plus an opportunity to network with other like-minded executives. It's not designed to help people like you (I'm assuming here) switch careers. You aren't going to benefit because:

• It's $90k and your employer will likely not pay for it
• You're out of your league
• Your experience isn't very relevant (Queen's School of Business - Participant Profiles - Graduate Success Stories)
• It's for old people (Queen's School of Business - Participant Profiles)

The GMAT doesn't require 18 months to prep for. I prepped for it in a week and got a 700 because I finished my verbal in 10 minutes (oops).

You need to figure out what you want to do and work backwards.

Paying for education for the sake of getting education or for "more opportunities" is a waste of time and money.

Thank you, this is by far the most helpful answer that I've gotten so far in regards to this topic.

So couple of key points I took is that, looks like my experience doesn't qualify me for a eMBA at this point, even with a sufficient GMAT score, I'll still need at least a "Director, Sr. Or a VP" title in front of my name before I will be considered...which is still several years away.

I'm also about 10yrs away from the avg age group too.
Now my "goal" to take the MBA is to hopefully get me a job w/ a higher wage bracket in the retail field, so ideally a director, VP position of sorts w/ a retail company.

So would you reccomend that I keep chewing away at my bachelor's degree first, and then possibly go for a full time MBA program at that point.
I"ve thought about taking a few years off work to go back to school full time, in which case I can likely get my BBA in approx 2 more years.
However, the "opportunity cost" for that would be 2 years in lost wages/advancement + cost of tutition which will come close to 250-300K...and I fully believe that even with a BBA, I'm likely not going to find a job that's going to pay me much more than what I make now to really "pay off" the 2 years of full time schooling.

But I guess the best bet for me right now would be to continue to work towards my BBA part time and then look at MBA later down the road?

As for 18month for GMAT, I realize most people can prep it in 1 month, but I haven't taken any math classes since 2006, and it will take me 3-6 month to pick up some of the basic mathematics that I've "lost".
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[DaFonz]

Originally Posted by skiiipi

Thank you, this is by far the most helpful answer that I've gotten so far in regards to this topic.

So couple of key points I took is that, looks like my experience doesn't qualify me for a eMBA at this point, even with a sufficient GMAT score, I'll still need at least a "Director, Sr. Or a VP" title in front of my name before I will be considered...which is still several years away.

I'm also about 10yrs away from the avg age group too.
Now my "goal" to take the MBA is to hopefully get me a job w/ a higher wage bracket in the retail field, so ideally a director, VP position of sorts w/ a retail company.

So would you reccomend that I keep chewing away at my bachelor's degree first, and then possibly go for a full time MBA program at that point.
I"ve thought about taking a few years off work to go back to school full time, in which case I can likely get my BBA in approx 2 more years.
However, the "opportunity cost" for that would be 2 years in lost wages/advancement + cost of tutition which will come close to 250-300K...and I fully believe that even with a BBA, I'm likely not going to find a job that's going to pay me much more than what I make now to really "pay off" the 2 years of full time schooling.

But I guess the best bet for me right now would be to continue to work towards my BBA part time and then look at MBA later down the road?

As for 18month for GMAT, I realize most people can prep it in 1 month, but I haven't taken any math classes since 2006, and it will take me 3-6 month to pick up some of the basic mathematics that I've "lost".
Posted via RS Mobile

Honestly, suck it up and do your bachelors part time. Get transfer credits from athabasca if you have to.

VP position of what? A VP finance is different from VP marketing and has different education/experience requirements. You need to figure out what your career path looks like based on your experience. MBAs are only useful if you have a very clear understand of what it entails and what you want out of it.

GMAT math isn't rocket science. 3-6 months is ridiculous.

[skiiipi]

Originally Posted by DaFonz

Honestly, suck it up and do your bachelors part time. Get transfer credits from athabasca if you have to.

VP position of what? A VP finance is different from VP marketing and has different education/experience requirements. You need to figure out what your career path looks like based on your experience. MBAs are only useful if you have a very clear understand of what it entails and what you want out of it.

GMAT math isn't rocket science. 3-6 months is ridiculous.

Makes sense.
Guess i'll keep chewing away at the Bachelor's degree for now.

Thanks for the advice/tips

[sexyaccord]

SFU has a 1 yr full time MBA, I would just do that.

[DaFonz]

Originally Posted by sexyaccord

SFU has a 1 yr full time MBA, I would just do that.

He has no bachelors.

I can also think of much better ways to spend $35k than a shitty masters from SFU.

[[YeS.SiR]]

Originally Posted by skiiipi

Thank you, this is by far the most helpful answer that I've gotten so far in regards to this topic.

So couple of key points I took is that, looks like my experience doesn't qualify me for a eMBA at this point, even with a sufficient GMAT score, I'll still need at least a "Director, Sr. Or a VP" title in front of my name before I will be considered...which is still several years away.

I'm also about 10yrs away from the avg age group too.
Now my "goal" to take the MBA is to hopefully get me a job w/ a higher wage bracket in the retail field, so ideally a director, VP position of sorts w/ a retail company.

So would you reccomend that I keep chewing away at my bachelor's degree first, and then possibly go for a full time MBA program at that point.
I"ve thought about taking a few years off work to go back to school full time, in which case I can likely get my BBA in approx 2 more years.
However, the "opportunity cost" for that would be 2 years in lost wages/advancement + cost of tutition which will come close to 250-300K...and I fully believe that even with a BBA, I'm likely not going to find a job that's going to pay me much more than what I make now to really "pay off" the 2 years of full time schooling.

But I guess the best bet for me right now would be to continue to work towards my BBA part time and then look at MBA later down the road?

As for 18month for GMAT, I realize most people can prep it in 1 month, but I haven't taken any math classes since 2006, and it will take me 3-6 month to pick up some of the basic mathematics that I've "lost".
Posted via RS Mobile

I wouldn't completely discount an eMBA, and the Queen's program has a good name in Canada. I don't completely disagree with what DaFonz is saying, but I would consider the following in a bit more detail:

1. I don't think that you're out of your league, based on what you've written. One of the neat things in professional programs is that a cohort is selected for diversity. Business, as a whole, is not the toughest subject. You sound polished and with experience managing 50+ staff, you'll provide good company. (In fact, I'm soon looking for someone with strong retail operations background and an MBA for my team, and I would place value on someone who has been at the front lines for a bit.)

The only question is whether you have the smarts to compete at the end of the day instead of dragging the class down. I have an acquaintance who struggled in school and on the GMAT (couldn't crack 500) and graduated near the top of his MBA class. I have another who was a B student at best and she ended up gold medalist at Ivey. You can surprise yourself (and business theory is common sense, for the most part).

2. Average age is just that, 'average'. Given the small size of the Queen's class, the average can be pulled up significantly by a few mature students. Case in point, on those Queen's profiles, how many of those photos appear to be of people who are 38? I know people who have been accepted to the Queen's eMBA in their 20s. I also happen to know that the ages in the Vancouver programs tend to be polarized - a big chunk of the cohort is younger than the average age of 29, and just over a handful are very mature (well into their 40s and even 50s). That said, I agree with DaFonz in that you'll have to think twice prior to spending the $90,000, but I disagree that a school just wants your money. The programs look for much more than money - they need satisfied graduates to ensure a thriving alumni network (donations, rankings and prestige). I'd say, they wouldn't mind your money, but there has to be a return on investment for them also.

3. I disagree that you should aim for a Bachelor's if an MBA is in your sights. I'd take the quickest route there. I don't see a few more years and an Athabasca BA doing anything for your profile that your experience + a kick ass GMAT score wouldn't show. Many Canadian programs will make exceptions, even though they don't publish that fact. I've seen Rotman and UBC do it in the past, even into full-time programs. Once again, exceptions are not the rule, and you'll have to demonstrate something special, but there is possibility here!

4. If your direct 2 year opportunity cost is $250K, you might be making well beyond the salary expected by a fresh MBA grad. (In Vancouver, that is between $60,000-70,000 for the most part, rising to about $85,000 after 3 years. Again, that is just an average, and the range is wide, but we are not a city that values MBAs much). Now, if you are projecting opportunity cost with interest and delayed future earning potential ... you might not actually learn much more from an MBA.

5. If you are looking to stay in retail, then it is your own network, more than anything, that will help your job hunt and upward progression. Starting growing that network now and when you come out with an MBA, people will notice. I completely agree with DaFonz when he says that you need a vision of your career path and how an MBA is a necessary fit. "Start with the end in sight" and that should be extra motivation.

6. Start with the GMAT. You've probably correctly identified your biggest weakness - that programs can't tell whether you have the smarts to keep up. For most people, a week isn't enough. In your case especially, the GMAT may be the make-or-break factor (which usually isn't true for those with an undergrad degree), so you'll need to give it your best. When you're looking at $50,000+ for an MBA, spending $1-2,000 on a prep course and some time on this is pretty small in the grand scheme of things. Whether that's 2 months or 18, only you can tell. You should be able to tell after a few weeks of study but you're probably being realistic with your estimates, which is a good start.

Not sure how (or why) DaFonz managed 15 seconds a question on that test when they give you closer to 2 minutes, but I'd suggest most people not follow his lead, to be safe.


Anyhow, I had more to say than I initially had thought. If anything, you can see that there are some very divergent opinions on what an MBA program values *from* you and what value it delivers *to* you. All you can do is do a ton of research and thinking about what makes sense in your particular situation prior to making one of the biggest purchases of your life. Good luck.

[skiiipi]

Originally Posted by [YeS.SiR]

I wouldn't completely discount an eMBA, and the Queen's program has a good name in Canada. I don't completely disagree with what DaFonz is saying, but I would consider the following in a bit more detail:

1. I don't think that you're out of your league, based on what you've written. One of the neat things in professional programs is that a cohort is selected for diversity. Business, as a whole, is not the toughest subject. You sound polished and with experience managing 50+ staff, you'll provide good company. (In fact, I'm soon looking for someone with strong retail operations background and an MBA for my team, and I would place value on someone who has been at the front lines for a bit.)

The only question is whether you have the smarts to compete at the end of the day instead of dragging the class down. I have an acquaintance who struggled in school and on the GMAT (couldn't crack 500) and graduated near the top of his MBA class. I have another who was a B student at best and she ended up gold medalist at Ivey. You can surprise yourself (and business theory is common sense, for the most part).

2. Average age is just that, 'average'. Given the small size of the Queen's class, the average can be pulled up significantly by a few mature students. Case in point, on those Queen's profiles, how many of those photos appear to be of people who are 38? I know people who have been accepted to the Queen's eMBA in their 20s. I also happen to know that the ages in the Vancouver programs tend to be polarized - a big chunk of the cohort is younger than the average age of 29, and just over a handful are very mature (well into their 40s and even 50s). That said, I agree with DaFonz in that you'll have to think twice prior to spending the $90,000, but I disagree that a school just wants your money. The programs look for much more than money - they need satisfied graduates to ensure a thriving alumni network (donations, rankings and prestige). I'd say, they wouldn't mind your money, but there has to be a return on investment for them also.

3. I disagree that you should aim for a Bachelor's if an MBA is in your sights. I'd take the quickest route there. I don't see a few more years and an Athabasca BA doing anything for your profile that your experience + a kick ass GMAT score wouldn't show. Many Canadian programs will make exceptions, even though they don't publish that fact. I've seen Rotman and UBC do it in the past, even into full-time programs. Once again, exceptions are not the rule, and you'll have to demonstrate something special, but there is possibility here!

4. If your direct 2 year opportunity cost is $250K, you might be making well beyond the salary expected by a fresh MBA grad. (In Vancouver, that is between $60,000-70,000 for the most part, rising to about $85,000 after 3 years. Again, that is just an average, and the range is wide, but we are not a city that values MBAs much). Now, if you are projecting opportunity cost with interest and delayed future earning potential ... you might not actually learn much more from an MBA.

5. If you are looking to stay in retail, then it is your own network, more than anything, that will help your job hunt and upward progression. Starting growing that network now and when you come out with an MBA, people will notice. I completely agree with DaFonz when he says that you need a vision of your career path and how an MBA is a necessary fit. "Start with the end in sight" and that should be extra motivation.

6. Start with the GMAT. You've probably correctly identified your biggest weakness - that programs can't tell whether you have the smarts to keep up. For most people, a week isn't enough. In your case especially, the GMAT may be the make-or-break factor (which usually isn't true for those with an undergrad degree), so you'll need to give it your best. When you're looking at $50,000+ for an MBA, spending $1-2,000 on a prep course and some time on this is pretty small in the grand scheme of things. Whether that's 2 months or 18, only you can tell. You should be able to tell after a few weeks of study but you're probably being realistic with your estimates, which is a good start.

Not sure how (or why) DaFonz managed 15 seconds a question on that test when they give you closer to 2 minutes, but I'd suggest most people not follow his lead, to be safe.


Anyhow, I had more to say than I initially had thought. If anything, you can see that there are some very divergent opinions on what an MBA program values *from* you and what value it delivers *to* you. All you can do is do a ton of research and thinking about what makes sense in your particular situation prior to making one of the biggest purchases of your life. Good luck.

Thank you very much for your post!

[Tapioca]

Originally Posted by DaFonz

Paying for education for the sake of getting education or for "more opportunities" is a waste of time and money.

Opportunity cost should definitely be a big factor in any decision, but I don't necessarily agree that statement. Credentials still matter these days and sometimes, you need that extra credential to open more doors.

If I spend 15K in whatever (another degree or certification) and it results in opportunities that could earn me 15-20K per year over 10 years, well, it's not hard to see the return.
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[bcedhk]

I would never do any e-based school programs. The biggest benefit for me to attend school is to network with like-minded individuals and to network with them.

eMBA's = easy money for university.

[heleu]

Originally Posted by eddy89

I would never do any e-based school programs. The biggest benefit for me to attend school is to network with like-minded individuals and to network with them.

eMBA's = easy money for university.

"e" does not mean electronic in this case, it means executive. You still need to attend classes for an executive MBA.

[Marco.911]

Oh my goodness. Here comes a rant...... BUT it will be one with real value.

As an MBA holding (Royal Roads) I can claim that the MBA is neither good or bad. It all comes down to WHY you are taking it and what your purpose is.

I have to tell you.... I am very well educated and have a lot of great experiences, references and contacts and I had a VERY difficult time getting a position in my field.

My specific area of experience is in finance but mostly on the financial planning / tax planning side of things. MBA for me was 100% useless. There was no value for me to take it.

One thing I fucking hate about companies and society today is that everyone wants you to have all this experience and education but there is no value or purpose behind it. I personally hate school and wanted to write my MBA paper on how school has basically cornered the executive market for no other purpose then for profit. Of course, that idea was rejected and I ended up studying international trade.

The point is that you have to have a CLEAR, and I mean crystal clear goal before you even set foot (or fingers on a keyboard) on university programs.

Doctors usually know very early on they want to be a doctor and they dedicate their life to that goal. Same for most serious professions. There comes a point in your life where you need to be absolutely clear what it is you want to do and that is essentially your life's work.

Getting work experience is great and for some, it will help to figure out what it is you want to do. I worked at Zellers for a while right after high school and while I didn't know what I wanted to do, I knew I did not want to work there, or any other bullshit job for that matter. I knew I wanted to work with numbers so I took a degree with numbers.

As time went on, I found interest in economics, statistics and chemistry. It sounds weird but that's what I liked. I also liked marketing so I took some of that too. I ended up graduating not knowing fuck all about anything for a career but I knew that I liked money, I liked numbers, I liked marketing and business stuff, and I liked people.

I admire and resent the people who at 16 KNOW what they want to do. They want to be a doctor, not because mom and dad said so, but because they just really want that. I admire those that REALLY know what they want to do. For those people, I think school is AWESOME!!

For the rest of us, I think school is a very dangerous money pit of a fucking mess that should be avoided unless you have SOME kind of idea what you want to do. I am actually PRO education ironically but it has to make sense. All these eMBA courses and e-this-and-that is just another way for schools to make money. Make no mistake, school is BIG business and they somewhat have a lot of people by the balls.

I went on to banking, then investments, then trading, then working for a fund company, running my own business, and now I'm back as an advisor and ironically, what I REALLY want to be doing is business and personal coaching for sales-people, executives, and high net worth business owners.

I am happy to do that for a fraction of what I am making now because it is work that I LOVE.... For the first time, in my 30's, I can see value in going to school for coaching because I have a very clear vision and I know what I want.

True, my previous education didn't hurt me at all, but we live in a world where having an MBA/CFA, I'm lucky to get a 80k a year job while my friend who is a plumber is making more than me. My friends who are lawyers are in debt making 70k a year and my other friend is working as a cook making more!

Don't let the suit and tie fool you. Do what you love. Sounds cliche.

Anyway, maybe that was off topic.

Don't do your MBA unless you know WHY. An MBA will help you get an interview for sure, but it is a false sense of gain. The interview you will be up against people that will crush your experience and have an MBA that carries a lot more weight (not to be offensive).

I think your best bet is take some time, know what you REALLY want to do, and the focus on that. I believe you're better off with a very focused diploma in your field with experience than a degree. You can always build on that later on once you're in the field.

Job market is fucked up in Canada right now anyway. I'd save the money for an MBA and move the fuck out of here if you're serious about career.

[KimLund12]

I don't recommend you to go for an e MBA programme,it is just a wastage of time and money.

[4444]

Originally Posted by KimLund12

I don't recommend you to go for an e MBA programme,it is just a wastage of time and money.

what a superficial answer for a year old thread.

so, you'd say an INSEAD eMBA is a waste of time & money? it might be for you, it might be for 90% of people, but the connections made for those 0.1% who do it make it so valuable.

having said that, generally, you have to go for a top 10 school for MBA/eMBA, everything else you're just doing it for the paper.