Sea2Sky Closure

[meme405]

Came on to RS fully expecting a 2 page thread on this:

UPDATE: Two young women dead after head-on crash on Sea to Sky Highway | Globalnews.ca

Spoiler!

Two young women are dead and two others are injured after a crash on the Sea to Sky Highway north of Lions Bay Saturday morning, RCMP confirm.

The crash happened at around 7:35 a.m. near Loggers Creek, about five kilometres north of Lions Bay.

Mounties say four young women between the ages of 19 and 20 were travelling to Whistler in a Jeep Cherokee when the driver lost control turning a corner.

The Jeep, which has Washington State licence plates, hit a Chevy pick-up truck head on, killing two of the four women, according to police.

The other two women were taken to hospital and one is in serious condition.

Two of the women in the vehicle are Canadian and two are American, according to police.

Investigators are still trying to determine their identities.

The man driving the pick-up truck was uninjured.

Inspector Tim Shields with Lower Mainland RCMP calls the accident “a tragedy beyond words.”

Shields says they do not yet know what caused the collision, but road conditions were icy at the time.

“We have collision reconstructionists at the scene trying to piece together everything that happened in the second leading up to the impact to determine the cause of the crash.”

The highway is now open north of Lions Bay, but drivers should expect delays.

First off, devastating accident, my sympathies are with the families who were affected by this tragedy.

At the same time people have to recognize that the actions of these 4 girls, obliterated the plans and weekend for an enormous amount of people. I was up in Whistler today, and I was stuck for the day because I had no idea what was going to happen with the highway (Not that I am going to start complaining about having to spend an extra day in whistler), but for those who got stuck in this mess, or had their weekend getaway squashed by this accident it can be a pretty shitty deal.

I came back late and waited just before Lions Bay for about an hour until the road opened. The number of people who were stuck in that lineup was astronomical, and I can't even begin to fathom the number of people who just said fuck it and scrapped their plans and went home. These people most likely forfeited hotel costs. Sorry but if that had happened to me I would still have been a pretty bitter individual.

What really kills me beyond this though, is how this is going to lead to even more "speed kills" BS in the media. Speed doesn't kill, what kills is poorly trained drivers, driving poorly maintained cars, all while distracted by their cell phone or friends.

I drove up the S2S on Friday morning, I was moving at a good speed for the road (yes, it was slightly above the 80km/h speed limit). I got passed by a few vehicles; however, the two noteworthy cars i got passed by were, a dodge neon, with a rear bumper almost falling off, and a toyota tercel. That dodge neon must have been going atleast 140 when he passed me.

The other interesting vehicle I encountered was a GFS dual axle cube van which was hauling along just past squamish where the speed limit is 90km/h. Once again I was moving at a speed above the speed limit, funny thing paced the truck for a bit, and he was moving through all the corners and bends at above 110km/h. At one point he got fed up with me going 110km/h in front of him and he started to passed me.

If these vehicles are capable of travelling that road at 110km/h when the conditions are less than ideal (as they were, the road was wet in sections and the temperatures were pretty low). Then I see no reason that the S2S is still 80km/h. The speed limit is absolutely ridiculous.

I am especially eager to see the details of the accident that happened this morning. They should have no problem telling us what happened since they closed the HWY for over 10 hours to figure it out.

Spoiler!

InB4 Soundy castrating me for driving above the limit
InB4 the failstorm for me being an asshole about the two girls who gave their lives

[ancient_510]

Originally Posted by meme405

I was up in Whistler today, and I was stuck for the day because I had no idea what was going to happen with the highway (Not that I am going to start complaining about having to spend an extra day in whistler)

If you really had to get home, you can just drive north through the Duffey.

[inv4zn]

Wait, I'm confused.

Are you complaining about the speed limit being too low, or too high?

I drive a well maintained car with good tires, and I actually find the speed limit mostly ok on the S2S. There are some stretches that could be higher, but I think it'd be even more confusing if there were 5 different speed limits on a 20km curvy road.

That being said, it is a tragedy all around. RIP.

[meme405]

Originally Posted by inv4zn

Wait, I'm confused.

Are you complaining about the speed limit being too low, or too high?

I drive a well maintained car with good tires, and I actually find the speed limit mostly ok on the S2S. There are some stretches that could be higher, but I think it'd be even more confusing if there were 5 different speed limits on a 20km curvy road.

That being said, it is a tragedy all around. RIP.

The speed limit on the S2S is low by about 20km/h.

I think the entire thing should be 100km/h, except through lions bay, Britannia beach and squamish, it should be 70km/h through those sections.

It makes no sense to have 60km/h through lions bay, when the speed limit through squamish is 70km/h. There is no traffic lights in lions bay, nor is the population even nearly as high as squamish. So if 70km/h is reasonable through squamish it should be the same through lions bay.

The rest of the highway was 80km/h before the complete overhaul of the S2S, now after all the improvements, the speed limit is the same as before. That makes zero sense. The highway was dramatically improved yet we can't go any faster? So I ask the question I have posed a thousand times before: were we all just crazy maniacs when we were driving the S2S at 80km/h before the overhaul?

There are many city roads within Vancouver and Burnaby which have the same 80km/h as the S2S. I'm talking roads like SE Marine Dr. and the likes of that, if we can do 80km/h on these roads, where a traffic light appears every 500m, or there is pedestrian crossings, then the S2S should be dramatically higher.

The thing I find funny too is the complaint people put up about an animal running into the road and people not being able to stop in time and such. The portion of the S2S which is most prevalent for animals is after Alice lake, where the speed limit is coincidentally raised to 90km/h. Its funny because the road has not changed at all in its construction, yet all of a sudden when you reach the section where weather is of a greater impact (you are almost 2000' higher by that point), and the wildlife population is extraordinarily higher (you see like 10 signs about dear and bears wandering in the road), the speed limit actually goes UP not down.

Realistically though the complaint of animals on the road way is a farce anyways, you are much more likely to hit a deer near williams lake or PG then anywhere within the areas neighboring vancouver, and that never stopped then from setting 100 to 110km/h speed limits...

But don't take my word for it here was what the we (the tax payers) were told when we were asked to approve the S2S funding:

shorten travel times,

This was one of their 3 main reasons for upgrading the S2S as told to us the tax payers as seen in this report:

http://www.partnershipsbc.ca/pdf/SeatoSkyFinal.pdf

Yet travel times were not shortened, because the speed limit for which they engineered the highway for, was never implemented.

[BBMme]

I can't imagine the traffic it created
RIP

[Soundy]

Originally Posted by meme405

InB4 Soundy castrating me for driving above the limit

Fuck, RS and reading comprehension really are mutually exclusive.

I never gave anyone crap for going over the limit. I give crap for whining about the consequences when you get busted. You KNOW the limit, you WILLINGLY exceed it, then you have ZERO room to whinge. You pushes yer skinny pedal, and you takes your chances.

That is all.

[Lomac]

Am I correct in stating that you're complaining about a driver that lost control during highway corner and that it forced hundreds of people to adjust their weekend plans? Roads get icy during this time of year; hell, black ice is pretty prevalent already, and that's stuff you can't see in order to avoid. It's possible this girl was driving below the speed limit but still managed to hit a patch of black ice and was unable to gain control of the car before it crashed.

Don't ever drive the Coquihalla, then... you do that drive expecting at least a two hour delay going up (or down) the Snow Shed, due to accidents this time of year.



That said, I do agree that the speed limit on the S2S could be higher in a few sections, but this is starting the time of year when drivers need to start slowing down on that highway, regardless of posted limits.

[jlenko]

The corner it happened on, is the same damn corner that head on accidents KEEP happening on, yet the ministry is doing nothing about it.

It's the stretch just north of Lion's Bay, where it's twisty as fuck because it's too tight to widen to four lanes. It's one lane in each direction, with no centre divider.

Even some cones bolted to the pavement on the centre line would be a start.... but nooooo....

[BrRsn]

This corner?



Seeing the photo of the jeep is pretty grim.
Drivers/occupants were pretty young -- I'm only a few years older but the amount you mature from 19/20 to mid 20's in terms of driving is huge.

Anyways ... as always, drive appropriate to road conditions and you'll be okay. 7:30am would make sense for frost on the road

[meme405]

Originally Posted by Lomac

Am I correct in stating that you're complaining about a driver that lost control during highway corner and that it forced hundreds of people to adjust their weekend plans?

No, you are incorrect if you state that, all I meant by it is the people who are slightly upset or disappointed have every right to be upset and disappointed. I am not in any way blaming the owner/driver/occupants of the jeep, nor am I angry at them. What prompted me to say that portion at all is because I mentioned to someone it sucked that I probably wouldn't make it back to Van in time for the Pac V. Rios fight because of the accident, and someone else went off on me about how disrespectful I was being to the two girls who died.

I was in no way saying like "Fuck those girls they messed up my plans". I'm simply saying it was an all-round bad scenario.

Originally Posted by Lomac

Roads get icy during this time of year; hell, black ice is pretty prevalent already, and that's stuff you can't see in order to avoid. It's possible this girl was driving below the speed limit but still managed to hit a patch of black ice and was unable to gain control of the car before it crashed.

Don't ever drive the Coquihalla, then... you do that drive expecting at least a two hour delay going up (or down) the Snow Shed, due to accidents this time of year.

That said, I do agree that the speed limit on the S2S could be higher in a few sections, but this is starting the time of year when drivers need to start slowing down on that highway, regardless of posted limits.

I completely understand that, nor did I ever say that speed was a factor in this particular accident. In fact since we literally know nothing of what happened, its really only speculation.

What I am saying, is how the media is going to twist this to make it out as if speeding is the whole problem and it would have prevented this accident if speeds were slower...

Originally Posted by Soundy

Fuck, RS and reading comprehension really are mutually exclusive.

I never gave anyone crap for going over the limit. I give crap for whining about the consequences when you get busted. You KNOW the limit, you WILLINGLY exceed it, then you have ZERO room to whinge. You pushes yer skinny pedal, and you takes your chances.

That is all.

I was just playing man, I know what you mean, and you are right, I knew I was speeding the entire time. Had I gotten a ticket I would have bitched cause I got a ticket and obviously I don't want one, but I wouldn't complain that it was unfair...

Originally Posted by jlenko

The corner it happened on, is the same damn corner that head on accidents KEEP happening on, yet the ministry is doing nothing about it.

It's the stretch just north of Lion's Bay, where it's twisty as fuck because it's too tight to widen to four lanes. It's one lane in each direction, with no centre divider.

Even some cones bolted to the pavement on the centre line would be a start.... but nooooo....

To be clear, this is actually not the same corner as where the motorcyclist and the other vehicle happened earlier this year, but it is in the same direct vicinity.

To be fair, to the crews involved, the shoulders are widened as much as humanly possible here, and the double yellow line is much wider than a regular highway (all of the S2S has this). If you look at the double yellow on the S2S its like double the seperation size of that of any conventional highway in NA. Agreed though, they should work on a solution to this small section.

[jlenko]

Originally Posted by dhillon09

This corner?

Nope, north of that. The part where it's only one lane each way. Watch the video again.

There have been crashes at that spot, over and over, since before the highway was rebuilt. It's always been bad. It's too twisty to be able to do much, and if you go too quick, you have no choice but to cross the centre line in order to maintain control. I've done it myself.. it's a bad spot.

[dared3vil0]

The speed limits of the sea to sky SHOULD be raised-

That doesn't change the fact you'd be a fucking retard to drive that fast in snow/ice.

[meme405]

Originally Posted by dared3vil0

The speed limits of the sea to sky SHOULD be raised-

That doesn't change the fact you'd be a fucking retard to drive that fast in snow/ice.

Lol thats the brutal truth.

I mean after watching a dodge neon, a car that is not exactly renowned for its sporty prowess, navigating the curves at well above 120km/h in the wet. There is no reason that any person couldn't do 100km/h in dry conditions.

[westopher]

One thing I'm not surprised about. Notice the vehicle the girls were driving. An older most likely poorly maintained jeep cherokee. I've never been in a vehicle that I have felt less safe in than a mid/early 90s JGC. Terrible handling vehicles do not fare well on winding frost covered roads. As much as the selfish man in me wants the speed limits raised, we need to account for how many shitboxes are travelling this road, and realize people don't understand discretion for road conditions and their vehicles capabilities.

[GS8]

Originally Posted by westopher

One thing I'm not surprised about. Notice the vehicle the girls were driving. An older most likely poorly maintained jeep cherokee. I've never been in a vehicle that I have felt less safe in than a mid/early 90s JGC. Terrible handling vehicles do not fare well on winding frost covered roads. As much as the selfish man in me wants the speed limits raised, we need to account for how many shitboxes are travelling this road, and realize people don't understand discretion for road conditions and their vehicles capabilities.

And sadly, people still think that AWD / 4WD + shit tires is better than RWD + Winter tires.

A car is only as good as the driver is. New gadgetry in cars tries to minimize driver stupidity but it can never eliminate it.

Sadly, when a person loses their life, then the lesson was never learned.

[inv4zn]

Originally Posted by GS8

And sadly, people still think that AWD / 4WD + shit tires is better than RWD + Winter tires.

A car is only as good as the driver is. New gadgetry in cars tries to minimize driver stupidity but it can never eliminate it.

Sadly, when a person loses their life, then the lesson was never learned.

New gadgetry actually seems to give bad drivers some blind sense of confidence.

Oh don't worry, it's below freezing and I can't see shit, but my ABS, SH-AWD, TCS, VSA and and of course, my v-tec will magically allow be to drive like those Finnish rally drivers!

(Again, not saying that the girls were doing so, but just a general statement)

[duy-]

Originally Posted by jlenko

Nope, north of that. The part where it's only one lane each way. Watch the video again.

There have been crashes at that spot, over and over, since before the highway was rebuilt. It's always been bad. It's too twisty to be able to do much, and if you go too quick, you have no choice but to cross the centre line in order to maintain control. I've done it myself.. it's a bad spot.

don't go too quick then? I was doing 50 on that corner and it was fine, not twisty at all at slow speeds.
I think the problem is, yes the speed limit should be raised in certain areas, because people are too numb to signs. there seems to be a need for a "seriously slow the fuck down around here"
it's one of my favourite highways, well built, good turns, smooth road and great scenery... yes accidents do happen, sometimes they're unavoidable variables and sometimes it's driver error
the problem comes down to common sense, I'm not sure what the limit on that corner is but you're not obliged to go that fast, go with what speed you're comfortable with and there's no passing to anyone behind you can sit and wait until it opens up again (where it's safe to pass because it usually straightens out). basically I'm just annoyed at anyone who complains it's too twisty, next time put it in first gear keep it there the entire stretch, tell me how twisty and exciting it is.
Posted via RS Mobile

[Geoc]

It only takes one experience for someone to see how fast they can lose control of their car. Unfortunately for some, it is also their last.

I think there would a lot less accidents if people have experience of how fast everything goes out of hand in car as part of their drivers licensing program.

[Lomac]

Originally Posted by westopher

One thing I'm not surprised about. Notice the vehicle the girls were driving. An older most likely poorly maintained jeep cherokee. I've never been in a vehicle that I have felt less safe in than a mid/early 90s JGC. Terrible handling vehicles do not fare well on winding frost covered roads. As much as the selfish man in me wants the speed limits raised, we need to account for how many shitboxes are travelling this road, and realize people don't understand discretion for road conditions and their vehicles capabilities.

I think there are many highways in just BC alone that would greatly benefit from having those electronic speed limit signs. If it's 2pm on a sunny August afternoon, jack the speed limit to the maximum allowable. However, if it's 4am on a snowy January morning and there's the possibility of black ice under a fresh layer of snow, simply lower the limit to something like 60km/hr.

The issue is that there will always be people who see the speed limit as something to achieve, regardless of the prevailing weather conditions. I tend to drive my vehicles probably 85-90% of what I think is their limit during poor weather, and I'm still passed by other cars that are obviously not suited for the situation they're in. Usually, I come across these vehicles at a later point and they're almost always in a ditch or half stuck in a snow embankment.

[ilvtofu]

Originally Posted by inv4zn

New gadgetry actually seems to give bad drivers some blind sense of confidence.

Oh don't worry, it's below freezing and I can't see shit, but my ABS, SH-AWD, TCS, VSA and and of course, my v-tec will magically allow be to drive like those Finnish rally drivers!

(Again, not saying that the girls were doing so, but just a general statement)

In the real world most people don't actually know what kinda gadgetry their cars have, you're thinking of the type of people that think they're driving heroes but in reality most people don't go into a corner thinking "oh SH-AWD take the wheel!" and in those cases ABS/TCS/ESC/so on and so forth make a huge difference.
Some times you're turning and there's a patch of black ice you couldn't see and electronic aids might just be the difference between ending up in a ditch and barely noticing you hit black ice. I'm not suggesting it is an excuse for a driver to be negligent but all the money invested in safety systems combined with a safe driver and proper tires makes a profound difference over not having any driver aids.

[Soundy]

Originally Posted by Lomac

I think there are many highways in just BC alone that would greatly benefit from having those electronic speed limit signs. If it's 2pm on a sunny August afternoon, jack the speed limit to the maximum allowable. However, if it's 4am on a snowy January morning and there's the possibility of black ice under a fresh layer of snow, simply lower the limit to something like 60km/hr.

Unfortunately, those who figure the speed limit shouldn't apply to them will still go into it at whatever speed they THINK they and their cars can handle. Whent they're ignoring the speed signs anyway, why does it matter what it actually says?

[meme405]

Originally Posted by Lomac

The issue is that there will always be people who see the speed limit as something to achieve, regardless of the prevailing weather conditions. I tend to drive my vehicles probably 85-90% of what I think is their limit during poor weather, and I'm still passed by other cars that are obviously not suited for the situation they're in. Usually, I come across these vehicles at a later point and they're almost always in a ditch or half stuck in a snow embankment.

This is called natural selection.

It is taught to every driver in BC that the speed limits are set for OPTIMAL conditions, when the road is dry and the weather is warm. If they still cannot understand the simple concept that they should slow down in the snow and rain, that is nobodies but their own fault...

At some point you need to decide what you are willing to accept, I mean sure we could lower the speed limits to 30km/h across the entire road system and accidents would be eliminated all together, but that would come at a ridiculous cost, to the economy, our daily lives, and people's sanity.

I think we have reached a point where we have improved the safety of our roads and vehicles enough that an increase to the speed limit of some roads simply makes sense.

I will re-iterate the SOME ROADS portion, because people seem to get all bent out of shape and think that I am advocating making the speed limit 60km/h through school zones and 100km/h down Kingsway. This is simply not the case, I am advocating the government to simply follow the determinations made by the countless studies that they spent our tax dollars to fund then subsequently ignored. Studies that were done by professional engineers and traffic authorities. Instead the government has decided they know better than all these people and went a completely opposite direction, and I do not believe it has benefited the people they were elected to represent in any way...

[kunoman1]

RIP to the two girls
They were friends of a good friend of mine

[twitchyzero]

19-20 years old...too soon to go
https://www.facebook.com/pages/In-Lo...02982566554387

[westopher]

Very sad. All it takes is a quick mistake or simply bad luck to end it all.