Malaysian Airline loses contact with passenger airline

[Ulic Qel-Droma]

Originally Posted by underscore

We can be pretty sure it crashed, but grieving family members will be holding onto every last bit of hope that their loved ones could still be alive somehow.

that's their own issue they have to deal with.

the responsibility of closure doesn't lay on anyone except those who wish to seek the delusional thought.

i'm sure when they announce evidence, the loved ones will leap with joy or sleep better. that's exactly what's gonna happen. yep.

[underscore]

I'm sure most will eventually, but it'd be a hell of a lot easier for them if the plane was found.

[Infiniti]

Originally Posted by Ulic Qel-Droma

that's their own issue they have to deal with.

the responsibility of closure doesn't lay on anyone except those who wish to seek the delusional thought.

i'm sure when they announce evidence, the loved ones will leap with joy or sleep better. that's exactly what's gonna happen. yep.

I think its important that we empathize with the relatives of the victims here. Amidst incredible grief and sadness, most of them realize that they'll eventually need to move on, however, the tricky part about mourning is that everyone progresses at their own pace.

Not knowing exactly what happened, let alone where the incident took place adds particular torment to a grieving individual. Its easy to sit there and subscribe to a form of rationale, but in reality, none of us are dealing with the emotional experience these people are going through, thus, how can we say with certainty that we wouldn't be reacting in similar fashion to them.

I know that I would probably be a mess emotionally. I agree that there are certain logical steps one can take to "get on" with their lives, but in this instance, the wound is still fresh and the lack of conclusive evidence has turned this into an emotional cliffhanger for those involved.

[4444]

Originally Posted by Ulic Qel-Droma

I'd wanna know, but then i'd already know. i'd know the plane is gone and whoever was related to me was gone too. and that's enough.

at a different scale. it's like if your friend got in a gruesome car crash. his body and face are completely mangled. but all you know is "fatal car crash"... wouldn't you wanna now EXACTLY what happened? was his skull crushed? did he bleed to death? was he knocked out RIGHT away? you can always get more detailed.

some people ... most people would be good just knowing he's dead. but would u really wanna see his body? see his face? hear the corners report in full? watch the corner perform? i mean those are "knowing for sure".

it's the same... they say the plane crashed. they drowned. do you really need to know the exact details? lost at sea is pretty decent to me. lost at sea or find a bloated body. i duno man. details aren't necessary.

wow, i didn't expect such a dumb response from you:

i wouldn't want to see nasty photos or details of their last moments, but i'd want to know why the plane went down, who was responsible, was it just a freak of nature, was it terrorism, was it a 1 in a million mechanical fault, were they knocked unconscious due to lack of oxygen (what you'd hope, so they'd know nothing).

also, you really think they'd have drowned? a 777 going down, and you think drowning would have killed them? they'd be so lucky to have a chance of drowning vs. being killed on impact.

again, i expect more from you, given previous intelligent thought

[Ulic Qel-Droma]

drown, die on impact... who cares. they were in an airliner crash in the middle of no where in the high seas. that's all you need to know man.

i know im being an ass but that's the reality.

it's like the guy that got dumped by the gf. and since she cut him off from communication, he is obsessed with finding out every detail of what she's been doing so he can somehow feel some weird delusion satisfaction (but actually it does nothing but fuel the delusion that you can get satisfaction from some new information).

it makes no difference. the destiny and end result is the same. it's in YOUR hands.

suppose i feed you whatever you wanted to hear and you believe it... but it's not actually what happened. what matters most? the truth? or how you want to handle the situation?

sure sure... find the air plane. so we can solve the mystery and really close the books and not be worried about the same mistake happening again. but will it really make them feel better? or worse... what if they find out they were abducted and brutally tortured or left to die in inhumane way?

whatever... just don't go around crying to others telling everyone how you cant get over it cuz you need to know the details. 1 month to get over it. 1 year. 10 years. whats the diff. as long as they don't hold on to it till the day they die.

we all know someone who's lost a love one or got dumped and they're scarred for life and become all retardedly emo forever. that's all im saying.

the mentality of wanting closure, is the path of the same as the forever emo.

[4444]

wtf are you saying, you're making no sense in what you say. i'm not going to bother discussing it any further

[Hondaracer]

Is finding a panel off the plane closure?
Posted via RS Mobile

[underscore]

I think finding any physical trace of the plane would be huge.

Originally Posted by Ulic Qel-Droma

it's like the guy that got dumped by the gf. and since she cut him off from communication, he is obsessed with finding out every detail of what she's been doing so he can somehow feel some weird delusion satisfaction (but actually it does nothing but fuel the delusion that you can get satisfaction from some new information).

Again, your analogy sucks (no surprise). It's more like getting dumped and wanting to know why he got dumped. It's the circumstances leading up to the failure that people want to know, if nothing else to ensure it doesn't happen again.

And yes, knowing what lead up to the disappearance and likely death of the passengers and crew with be huge for the families, regardless of the exact circumstances. They don't need to know the gritty details, but they want to know where the hell their loved ones went.

[4444]

Originally Posted by Hondaracer

Is finding a panel off the plane closure?
Posted via RS Mobile

have you not followed the discussion

those that want closure don't get closure from seeing that the plane went down - WE KNOW THAT ALREADY. it's the why, not the gruesome details, but the story behind it.

god people, avg. IQ around here is stupid low these days

[Lomac]

Originally Posted by Ulic Qel-Droma

Spoiler!

drown, die on impact... who cares. they were in an airliner crash in the middle of no where in the high seas. that's all you need to know man.

i know im being an ass but that's the reality.

it's like the guy that got dumped by the gf. and since she cut him off from communication, he is obsessed with finding out every detail of what she's been doing so he can somehow feel some weird delusion satisfaction (but actually it does nothing but fuel the delusion that you can get satisfaction from some new information).

it makes no difference. the destiny and end result is the same. it's in YOUR hands.

suppose i feed you whatever you wanted to hear and you believe it... but it's not actually what happened. what matters most? the truth? or how you want to handle the situation?

sure sure... find the air plane. so we can solve the mystery and really close the books and not be worried about the same mistake happening again. but will it really make them feel better? or worse... what if they find out they were abducted and brutally tortured or left to die in inhumane way?

whatever... just don't go around crying to others telling everyone how you cant get over it cuz you need to know the details. 1 month to get over it. 1 year. 10 years. whats the diff. as long as they don't hold on to it till the day they die.

we all know someone who's lost a love one or got dumped and they're scarred for life and become all retardedly emo forever. that's all im saying.

the mentality of wanting closure, is the path of the same as the forever emo.

Just because YOU don't need to know what happened, doesn't mean someone else also doesn't need to know. Yes, dead is dead. But half the point is trying to determine whether that death could have been avoidable or if it was something that was beyond anyone's control.

You're like a religious nut, man, spewing out your rhetoric in an attempt to sway others into thinking that your way is the only way.

[underscore]

Originally Posted by 4444

have you not followed the discussion

those that want closure don't get closure from seeing that the plane went down - WE KNOW THAT ALREADY. it's the why, not the gruesome details, but the story behind it.

god people, avg. IQ around here is stupid low these days

Actually we still don't know anything, unless I missed a report of them finding physical evidence of the plane somewhere. Until they pick up a piece of that thing somewhere pretty much anything is still technically possible.

[Ulic Qel-Droma]

well obviously from this discussion, it's obvious no one will find closure from anything.

cuz like honderacer hinted.... you guys keep refuting.

there is no such thing as closure.

they can find more shit. and find bodies. and find whatever. it wont bring closure.

that is my point.

all the shit u guys keep saying. is just delusional words trying to capture some feeling that you WILL NOT GET.

that's my point.

not to do with my analogies. or specifics or whatever.

there IS no closure.

doesn't matter if i don't need it.

they don't need it either. and the sooner they realise that, the better off they'll be.

hondaracer gets it. the rest are still walking in circles trying to satisfy something that can't be satisfied.

i don't know how much clearer it can be.

the closure you guys imagine, simply, does not... exist.

they will find reasons or make up reasons eventually... what? the families will finally go "oh he can rest in peace" "i feel better".
NO.

they'll just keep going "i wish the plane didnt go down" "i wonder what it would be like if he were still around".

it's just another step to another type of attachment and clinging onto something that is GONE.

the concept is simple. if something is gone, it is gone. no amount of info will give you closure. period.

it's that simple.

[4444]

Originally Posted by underscore

Actually we still don't know anything, unless I missed a report of them finding physical evidence of the plane somewhere. Until they pick up a piece of that thing somewhere pretty much anything is still technically possible.

i was taking a leap of faith. i think we all 'know' that the plane went down... you'd be hard pressed to still hold hope for anything different, sadly

[Ulic Qel-Droma]

Originally Posted by underscore

they want to know where the hell their loved ones went.

they are somewhere here on earth. is that not a good enough answer. they are DEAD somewhere here on earth.

not dead in some far off galaxy lost in space. they're here, on this little tiny planet. decaying somewhere. like the way EVERYONE ELSE has died in all of history. clear? happy?

what? okok.. they're in a little crevas 1000m under the sea, 80% decomposed and fish nipping at their bodies.

oookook they were executed and dumped at some site and buried. and they're decayed and birds are picking at their bodies.

okkko.. they crashed and they burnt up.

they're here. ok. they're dead.

the only concern should be why the aircraft disappeared and how to stop it from happening to others.

the ones that have suffered this accident... that was their destiny. and hopefully we can learn from it.

greiving, and attachment to their bodies. and those things are.... yeah.. perhaps to ME it's not necessary.

but to the ones who keep greiving, i'm telling you. it's not necessary, and you will be as happy as the ones that have already started to move on.

it's SIMPLE as that.

5 years from now if any of these people still cant get over it, and are seeing psychiatrists and therapists and all that... you think their going to instruct them to grieve?

no they're gona tell them to shut the fuck up and get over it (in the nicest and professional way possible).

so you can shut the fuck up and get over it NOW... or you can shut the fuck up and get over it years from now.

it's your choice. i have laid out the options. and i have laid out the path that will bring you least suffering and guilt and pain.

it's up to you which one you wanna pick. but anyone with any amount of willpower will pick the obvious route.


obviously moving on takes time. but the sooner you start the path, the sooner you'll feel better. that's all im sayng.
and it seems like you guys are too narrow sighted to see that.

still digging holes in the ground looking for closure. keep digging. have fun.



how many of you have had loved ones that died?
how many of you have had the thought that "i wish i spent more time with them when they were alive"?

a lot of us. almost all of us.

now the question is. when they were alive, you didn't care to see them or spend that time with them. it's only after they're dead you throw some overt form of attachment that you didn't have before. why?

it's the same shit. you wish you had more time with them. you wish you knew why. you wish this you wish that. but at the end of the day.. or year or decade.. whenever you get over it... you move on. because you realise you can't fucking change the past. no amount of info matters. nothing matters. only forward. your life and the people around you that are still alive and ticking.

they're dead. they're off in whatever land you believe in. in the dirt. in the afterlife. whichever. it doesn't matter. it's out of your control. what's in your control is your own willpower. unless you have none. then i guess you are excused to lead a miserable life hah.

[underscore]

edit: not even worth my fucking time. Ulic, you're an idiot. Learn to read and try again.

[Hondaracer]

Gotta agree with ulic
Posted via RS Mobile

[Ulic Qel-Droma]

Originally Posted by 4444

those that want closure don't get closure from seeing that the plane went down - WE KNOW THAT ALREADY. it's the why, not the gruesome details, but the story behind it.

you REALLY think they're gonna feel happier? you REALLY think they'll get closure from that?

like i said, the story is not going to be happy.

"everyone got drunk, and had a fun time, so much so they forgot they were in the air and the plane crashed and they all died happily ever after".

no... it will be more like... the plane had some problem, they got hijacked, etc. everyone was probably pissing their pants. wishing this wishing that. their life flashing before their eyes. boom. most of them are dead. the unfortunate ones that are still conscious will be surrounded by dead people and body parts, and slowly pulled down to the sea. drowning. the ones that survived that... will have frozen to death, or drowned to death.

is that the story that will give them closure?
what exactly are you guys talking about?

what details are going to give them SATISFACTION?

except none of you, except a few, realise, that actually, that's not going to give you any closure.

you can ask anyone that's loved a close one to an accident. and then found out the details after.

you can ask them... did that suddenly make them feel better? make them have a new outlook in life? the sun suddenly shines brighter?

c'mon guys get real. they should take their respective time to grieve. and let go. and take care of the ones that are still around them.

closure is a word created for those individuals unable to cope with any type of relationship ending.

seeking closure is chasing your tail. chase away.

Originally Posted by Hondaracer

Gotta agree with ulic
Posted via RS Mobile

thank you.



i only say this cuz i learn from experience. lost many, lots of down times. each time each down time has become shorter and shorter, because i realise seeking closure is just bullshit.
it's like getting dumped. you feel like shit, but you move on. waddling in your own filth of negative emotions seeking some reprisal against the lack of information or WHY WHY WHY... will NEVER fucking help. i can guarantee you that.

for those of you that are religious, you'll see them when you're dead.
for those of you that are not, your body will join them in the dirt when you die too.

either way, in the short short ~90 years you'll live, you should try to be happy. time is nothing. you will join them for all of eternity sooner than you want.

[MarkyMark]

This is retarded. Everyone grieves in different ways, some don't want to know anything and others want to know what went down. Saying you know what's better for them is stupid, you don't really know anything except what's better for yourself.

God some people really are high on their own philosophies.
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[Ulic Qel-Droma]

yeah i know they are different.

i know some would rather not know. and some wanna know.

I'm just saying. yes, if u wanna know, and u know, you will get satisfied because you KNOW... but you wont find closure there. you wont feel better.

no one has ever found closure that way dude.

ask any psychiatrist, psychologist, or counselor that look over people that have been looking for closure for years and years and years.

some people don't wanna smoke, some people smoke. they both get satisfaction out of what they do.
all im saying is smoking is unhealthy, and you ain't gonna live longer.
the smokers will disagree. and keep smoking. but the fact is, they're going to be unhealthier.

that's all im saying.
grieving, and seeking closure that doesn't exist, will not give them what they are seeking.

if you seek the details for the sake of details. ok great. you will find some satisfaction in the answer.

but if you are seeking a better emotion because you lost a loved one, that action will not make you any happier. they'll seek something else after.

people are only hating because i'm being very frank about this. because i'm basically bashing victims. but really i'm not.

if you took a survey of the victims... the ones that are happier have already started to move on. and the ones still in gut wrenching emotional pain are the ones seeking more closure.
MORE. more... there can never be enough.


they find out why the plane went down, the details. great. closure? NO.
now they'll want to take justice into their own hands. suing airliners. "outraged" at how something like this could happen. they'll direct their emotion somewhere else when you give them their "closure", cuz really, their emotions haven't been tamed, they'll just direct it elsewhere.

if you guys can't see that. then you guys are truly blinded by emotions.

[underscore]

Originally Posted by Ulic Qel-Droma

no... it will be more like... the plane had some problem, they got hijacked, etc. everyone was probably pissing their pants. wishing this wishing that. their life flashing before their eyes. boom. most of them are dead. the unfortunate ones that are still conscious will be surrounded by dead people and body parts, and slowly pulled down to the sea. drowning. the ones that survived that... will have frozen to death, or drowned to death.

is that the story that will give them closure?
what exactly are you guys talking about?

what details are going to give them SATISFACTION?

I'll try this one last time, maybe this time it will sink into your thick head. The part I bolded is the part they want to know, the part that will help the families. Was the plane highjacked? Was it a mechanical fault? Did it crash in the Indian Ocean, or did it land in Iran? Currently, they don't know any of this. For all we know, they could possibly be alive somewhere since they haven't found anything to confirm that the plane crashed somewhere in particular and that everyone was killed. It's the knowing what took their loved ones away from them that helps.

The part in italics won't help, what happened in their final moments won't help their family and friends. It's the circumstances leading up to it that will help. Have you seriously never seen an interview with a family member who feels a lot better knowing where they went?

[Ulic Qel-Droma]

and ill get it through your thick skull. that info will not make them feel better overall.
it will be some temporary feeling of satisfaction. like answering a math question. yes, you have the answer... now what?
they still have to "seek closure".

the point of this is SEEKING CLOSURE. and me saying that info will NOT help.

and you just keep saying it will. it will. it will. give them the info. it will give them closure.

i am saying give them the info. but that is not related to closure. it will just satisfy them, the same way it will satisfy us. it will satisfy human curiosity.

but it will not help them get over the attachment of a loved one.

YOU UNDERSTAND?


when in history has ANYONE had closure, because they heard a coroner's report?
it doesn't help them get over the death. it only satisfies the story because the story has blank lines.

now the story is complete. you can fully absorb it.

it's like reading a story about your loved one. and there's lots of blank spaces in the book.
sure, after filling in the blanks you go "YES" i can read the story.

but when you get to the end and realise the end is still shitty. you really get "over" them?
no. you just understand the story better.

the only time u get over them is when you STOP picking up that book and trying to fill in the blanks or reading it over and over and over again.
you read it once if you wish, and you put it away, forever. then you will seek the feeling you want.

the term "forgive and forget" comes to mind. forgive god, forgive the terrorists, forgive the airliner, forgive whoever. and forget. move on. you'll only feel happier when you put it in the back of your mind and start to fill your mind with new memories.

how can none of you guys realise this is the actual path that helps?

are any of you still seeking closure from some distant broken relationship? jeez.

as for thes ones that want to keep reading the book. ok go ahead and do whatever the fuck you want. just don't cry to everyone about it. keep that shit to yourself. or your psychiatrist. lol.

[MarkyMark]

Given the choice to know what happened to my disappearing family member or not I'd want to know every time. They are already dead, knowing or not knowing it's going to take time to move on either way. Not knowing the details isn't going to magically make me feel better about it.

"I wonder whatever happened with the whole plane thing..."

"The plane was hijacked and crashed"

Pick your poison. But thanks for the insight anyways doctor.

"
Posted via RS Mobile

[Ulic Qel-Droma]

not knowing wont magically make you feel better about it... unless you want it to.

knowing isn't magically going to make you feel better about it either.

"why did the electrical problem happen?"
"why'd they hijack THAT plane"
"what if my loved one didnt get on that plane?"
"what if i talked them out of taking that trip"
"aw man i was going to tell them to book another flight"

you see. thoughts will always come up. that's my point.

given the choice people will always wanna know.

but that's a different topic.

we're talking about how to get OVER the event. not how to get more involved.
the only way you get over shit, is to distance yourself from it. not go further towards it.

you say pick your poison.
i say fuck the poison and walk away.

but obviously a weak emotional addict will always choose the poison. what can you do. you can only inform them.

[snails]

@ ulic...

have you ever dealt with a close death?

thinking about the posts above has encouraged me to enlighten you.

when i was 17 (6 years ago) i came home one day to my dad who had hung himself in the hallway of the front door. its pretty fucked up for a 17 year old to see his dad chillin there like that but i reached my closure quickly because i knew what happened. not just because me and my brother had to take him down.

he left a letter for us. it described why he had done what he had and that he cared for us regardless but his time has ended for him.

to him. it was justified and i had a hard time after that. but knowing it was his choice brought me closure. to the point im completely comfortable talking about it because death is part of life.

BUT

if my dad just disappeared and i was told he was dead with little/no information of why.. i would spend a lot of time wondering.. why.. where.. how..is he suffering? can i do anything.. you know because im a human and not some fucking animal.

i would be pretty disappointed if i disappeared and people were so quick to write me off as dead.

who is to say the plane didnt go down close to some remote island and there are a handful of survivors? sure that may be 0.0001 % but to those family members thats enough.

[MarkyMark]

Well then you're dwelling on the people who can't let go. Not everyone is that way. You say no one in history has gotten closure from knowing all the details. You don't know that and if you think you do maybe you're the one who needs to see the shrink.
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