School districts across B.C. planning deep cuts to balance budgets

[meme405]

Originally Posted by iEatClams

But overall I don’t want a race to the bottom in terms of wages.

Who the FUCK do you work for, and what do you do?

This is the umpteenth time you have stated this "race to the bottom" without unions. Does your employer whip you that you need a union to defend you?

[MG1]

Originally Posted by meme405

This is pretty well what I have been saying all along.

Yet when I bring up the fact that unions aren't helping the teachers in this case, people start saying how without unions employment is a "race to the bottom".

Case and point go back to this thread:

http://www.revscene.net/forums/68389...ked-out-5.html

I said almost exactly what you have said here:

And I've said the same thing years ago before that in another thread.

Unions do play an important role, but times have changed and they are slow to react. They have a mandate to follow, but more often than not, they fail to see the big picture. The Ikea saga is a classic case of unions being stupid. Those poor workers. It's always the workers who get screwed over. Someone at the Richmond location had the bright idea to unionize. I wAnder how stupid they feel now. The Coquitlam workers are well paid and working conditions are pretty good, from what they tell me.

[MG1]

Originally Posted by meme405

Who the FUCK do you work for, and what do you do?

This is the umpteenth time you have stated this "race to the bottom" without unions. Does your employer whip you that you need a union to defend you?

He might have meant "race to the bottom" as in compared to teachers in other provinces?

[iEatClams]

Originally Posted by meme405

Who the FUCK do you work for, and what do you do?

This is the umpteenth time you have stated this "race to the bottom" without unions. Does your employer whip you that you need a union to defend you?

What I mean a race to the bottom is that I feel that for the majority of the people, real income is diminishing due to inflation. Unions due try and fight for higher wages. There's tonnes of money from corporate lobbyists compared to money from unions to act for their own interests. I just feel like the pro capitalistic, money before everything else crowd is more prominent in today's society and it will have negative consequences.

As to what do I do? Idont want to state exactly where I work but basically I do kinda a commercial real estate analysis for a property management firm/ developer.

I have previously worked in the financial side and as well as for union setting in the past where I was a union rep. I see where they are coming from. And no I'm not hiding behind them for poor performance. I use to be the type that worked 70 hours a week.

[Tapioca]

Originally Posted by meme405

Maybe just like some of these teachers, many of these accountants value family, and spending time with loved ones. Not every accountant is going to grind 70 hours a week, to make 100k a year.

There are plenty of people with accounting degrees working for 60k or 80k a year in banks all over. Believe me I know, my family is full of bankers.

It was pointed out to me in another thread by Ulic, how difficult it is to break into high salary positions for those that aren't willing to grind out 80 hours a week. I never really paid attention, because I was willing to do whatever it took to make the cash. But now when I look at it the amount of truly intelligent people who have great educations but work for less money in order to have some flexibility or so they don't have to grind is immense. These people are working in industries where they have no security that the teachers do, yet they make very similar money, and they all have very similar levels of education.

Well, everyone has choices in life. What's your issue with the choice that teachers made to teach? Because they make more money than you? People on this forum talk about making choices and being responsible for those choices. It sounds like you're upset because you made the choice not to enter into a profession that has 3 months of vacation per year.

What I don't get is that if the grass is greener on the other side, what's stopping one from becoming a teacher? Because it is beneath you? Because you have to pay union dues for a union you don't support? Because of your principles - whatever they may be?

With that said, I personally feel that teachers make too much right now, or at the very least, they need a reality check in terms of place among other public servants. Quite frankly, their union is doing a poor job in terms of public relations.

[bing]

Where exactly do the teachers think the money is coming from? last I checked the province and federal government are broke.

I'm against this strike. Teacher's make decent money and I blame the unions for protecting lazy and ineffective teachers. If it were up to me I would take advantage of the new supply of grads every year and use them on a trial basis to replace the crappy teachers and only end up keeping the good ones.

[FS1992EG]

Originally Posted by bing

Where exactly do the teachers think the money is coming from? last I checked the province and federal government are broke.

I'm against this strike. Teacher's make decent money and I blame the unions for protecting lazy and ineffective teachers. If it were up to me I would take advantage of the new supply of grads every year and use them on a trial basis to replace the crappy teachers and only end up keeping the good ones.

I am for this!

But there has to be feed back between the Students who need extra help and those who consume knowledge like a sponge.

If the students from each class have a 6 month semester meeting about the teacher's performance. This will give the government an actual first hand account of the teacher's performance and teaching style.

Those who perform poorly should have points given to them and if they reach a certain threshold of points, they will lose their teaching license. If there is one.

But it won't be as black and white as that, taking in consideration that if a teacher has a C+ or B- Average. What the students criticisms will have less merit.

Those teacher's who have higher achieving classes will receive points towards a bigger bonus at the end of the year.

Money talks and if you want the best and brightest, gotta pay up but if you got 10 years of experience in the union and you suck at teaching. Time to adjust your teaching style or GTFO!

I know a lot grads that have a better approach of teaching students. Aka tutors.

Tutors exist because some teacher's out there cannot teach.

[MG1]

I'm not sure if I quite understand what you are saying, but................

You guys honestly think the new wave of teachers out there are better? They're the ones who are going into the profession for the two months off and good pay. Like someone mentioned in the first couple of pages of this thread, these wannabe teachers don't give a flying crap about the kids.

Not saying all of them, but wow, some of you really need to think this through. The quality of teachers over the years have been dropping just as much as the ability of the students they teach.

I said this before somewheres else. The education system reflects the society it serves. What really needs to be done is to somehow filter the less effective candidates before they become eligible to teach. Raise the standards. Don't give out certificates from gumball machines. If you want quality teachers, make it difficult to get that degree.

My son had to take a 200 level math course in university. He couldn't believe how dumb these teacher wannabes were. In fact, I think they were full time teachers upgrading their certification.

The good news is, with the number of people wanting to get jobs as teachers, the noobs are having to "earn" their way into full time positions. Principals know which ones are good and which ones are not so good. They will put the word out which ones are keepers. Having said all that, not all school districts have the same hiring practices and, seniority is still the number one factor.

I've been out of touch for a few years as I am no longer on the PAC, but there are ways of getting certain people ahead of the line and hired at a school. Some principals are cunning and know the ropes.

Shall we start a thread on principals? The ones who run the schools?

Perhaps we should talk about district principals, superintendents and the school boards, while we're at it. Education isn't simple as, "Yeah, I'm an expert. I know all about teachers and schools...... I went to one, you know."

[MG1]

One more thing......... if any of you are parents. You really, really need to get involved in your child's education by joing the PAC (Parent Advisory Council). Actually, let me rephrase that....... by joining the PAC executive, as all parents are automatically on the PAC as members. A strong PAC can have a very big impact on how the school is run. Not only that, you will learn the politics that go on and your eyes will be opened to what really goes on in schools. Instead of criticizing teachers, you will quickly realize that working with them will improve the overall school community.

And, the last word. PAC's, at least the good ones are not there to raise money for schools. They are there to educate and promote good parenting among 1001 other things.

Most PACs, sadly, reduce themselves to just fund raising for new playground equipment and such.

[meme405]

Originally Posted by Tapioca

Well, everyone has choices in life. What's your issue with the choice that teachers made to teach? Because they make more money than you? People on this forum talk about making choices and being responsible for those choices. It sounds like you're upset because you made the choice not to enter into a profession that has 3 months of vacation per year.

What I don't get is that if the grass is greener on the other side, what's stopping one from becoming a teacher? Because it is beneath you? Because you have to pay union dues for a union you don't support? Because of your principles - whatever they may be?

With that said, I personally feel that teachers make too much right now, or at the very least, they need a reality check in terms of place among other public servants. Quite frankly, their union is doing a poor job in terms of public relations.

I am a little confused, I am not upset about my profession, in fact it is the exact opposite, I am immensely proud of what I do. So much so that I am willing to work at it 80 hours a week, in return for that I get paid handsomely (much more than any teacher). Also I work 3 week shifts, which means that I get 12 weeks off a year, however I work the other ~270 days of the year. So I am not upset at all about the time off the teachers receive, nor am I jealous of it. The post that you quoted, was kinda related to a different discussion, one that was more for the "regular" people, the ones who are not like me, and prefer family time, and time off and not being stretched to the literal limits of their wits 24/7. These are the people who in many cases work jobs which require just as much qualifications as teachers, get paid relatively similarly and yet have about half of the benefits as teachers.

I have all along been opposed to giving teachers raises, as I do not feel our government should be spending EVEN MORE of my tax dollars on this. Not when I would rather them continue to focus their efforts on maintaining a balanced budget. I much like many others who have recently stepped forward think that teachers are paid an adequate wage for the duty they perform. I am not willing to dump more money into their pockets just so their union members can continue to siphon funds away from them, and then every 4 years convince them to strike for months on end. This cycle is getting ridiculous, it has been this way since I was in elementary school, and its goddamn annoying.

I am basically exactly in line with the opinion you shared in your last paragraph. I don't know where you got the idea that I am jealous of teachers, or that I wanted to be one...

[MG1]

Is there a difference between jealousy and envy?

When I see someone making more than me, I don't get jealous, I envy them. More power to them, I say...... as long as they are doing it legally and not on the backs of others.

I love that Dire Straits song, "Money for Nothing."

Spoiler!

Now look at them yo-yo's that's the way you do it
You play the guitar on the M.T.V.
That ain't workin' that's the way you do it
Money for nothin' and your chicks for free.

Now that ain't workin' that's the way you do it
Lemme tell ya them guys ain't dumb
Maybe get a blister on your little finger
Maybe get a blister on your thumb.

We gotta install microwave ovens custom kitchen deliveries
We gotta move these refrigerators we gotta move these color T.V.'s.

We gotta install microwave ovens custom kitchen deliveries
We gotta move these refrigerators we gotta move these color T.V.'s.

I shoulda learned to play the guitar
I shoulda learned to play them drums
Look at that mama she got it stickin' in the camera
Man we could have some fun

And he's up there, what's that? Hawaiian noises?
You bangin' on the bongos like a chimpanzee
Oh that ain't workin' that's the way you do it
Get your money for nothin' get your chicks for free.

We gotta install microwave ovens custom kitchen deliveries
We gotta move these refrigerators we gotta move these color T.V.'s.

Listen here
Now that ain't workin' that's the way to do it
You play the guitar on the M.T.V.
That ain't workin' that's the way you do it
Money for nothin' and your chicks for free

As for the raise the teachers are asking for, the union made the mistake of asking for so much at the beginning, but this is how you start negotiating, yes? Like haggling, you start high and find middle ground later.

What the goverment did in response was a slap in the face comeback with an offer of a 10 year contract. Who the hell would sign a fucking ten year contract? (besides Luongo, LOLOLOLOLOL)

I think what most teachers would settle for is what other public sector workers got. Cost of living and some compensation for the zero, zero they got previously.

The government isn't negotiating in good faith. Twice they've been told by the courts to get their shit together. Yet they still insist on fucking the teachers over.

Like I said before, the government, at least this one, is hell bent on pushing the limits. I'm no union supporter, but the government is fucked up. Their only saving grace is that the other unions are staying out of this one because the BCTF is not respected all that much by the other unions in our province and country. At least that's my take on it.

If the government doesn't do something in the next little while, the other unions might have to get involved and that is something nobody wants to see.

The BCTF is out of money. They used to have a tonne of money. I suspect they spent it all on lawyers trying to fight the province during the last two or three head buttings.

Will there be labour unrest? Nah, people hate teachers too much. Don't know what it is, but it's a fact.

"As long as it's not me," attitude is where it's at............. good luck, teachers. Should have become accountants.

[acrophobia]

On Friday the bctf proposed:
-the creation of a workload fund that would be used to address class size and composition, and specialist teacher ratios
-salary increase of 8% over 5 years, plus 5k signing bonus
-withdraw all grievances stemming from the violations of the collective agreement since 2002

On Sunday night the government countered with:
-no extra funding to the workload fund
-the ability to completely remove class size and composition from the collective agreement
-salary increase of 7% over 6 years (0.25% less than their previous proposal)

Like MG1 said, it's obvious the government is not negotiating in good faith. In an interview this morning Fassbender claimed that the government had negotiated all weekend and offered an increase in student funding and teacher salaries, all of which is untrue; their counter offer shows that they aren't even trying to end the labour dispute and will do anything in their power to avoid an increase in funding to the education system.

Also, please realize that most teachers, including myself, didn't choose the profession for the money or holidays: I'm a teacher because I love the job, and the vast majority of teachers share my passion. I work hard to make my classes exciting and interesting for students, I volunteer my time every day in the morning, lunch hour, and after school for extra help, and give up evenings and weekends with my family for four months to coach two different school teams. I'm not boasting or looking for sympathy, but remember that every year I am expected to more with less; the big push for individualized learning in larger and more varied classrooms with less funding for supplies, technology, and education assistants. My job is to make sure that I maximize the learning potential of each student in the class, but at some point student needs are missed occasionally, then more often, then quite often. I can only spread myself so thin.

I'm not asking for a huge wage increase and this strike isn't about my salary; I've already given up 4 days and 10% on 12 others, and am now facing two weeks without pay; I'm not making that money back any time soon. But I'm willing to take a financial hit to make my classroom better for my students and my own kids. I don't want my kids to be the high end or middle of the road students that fade into the background.

This morning's announcement was a punch in the gut. The entire province was and still is waiting for a resolution, but the government doesn't care. I keep reading that teachers "aren't really in it for the students". Well, I am. And at least I'm trying.

[MG1]

As a PAC exec and member I experienced first hand, dedicated teachers like you. We parents who are in the know, appreciate all that you guys do. PAC members throughout the province have supported you guys and will continue to do so.

The government promised to work hard to end the dispute, but they never came in with a counter offer till late Sunday night. I wasn't sure what the detail were, but this is a really big slap in the face.

I am glad you took the time to post here. Too many people on RS are quick to judge and jump on the bandwagon. I think they call it gang mentallity.

[meme405]

The BCGEU signed a 5 year 5.5 deal in December. The teachers will never see a penny more than this (Or atelast not a substantial one).

The reason?

Because that agreement had a "compensation bargaining comparability" clause. This clause basically stated that if at any point in the next 5 years a different union strikes a better deal, the 55 000 civil servants will also see an increase to this amount.

That means that should the BCTF or nurses union strike a better deal, the government will have to re-ink the BCGEU deal as well. When you realize that even a 1% raise on top of the 5.5 results in like a quarter of a billion dollars extra the government has to pay its hard to get over.

As soon as the BCTF or any other public union strikes a deal over about 1.1 a year, thats it we can say goodbye to a balanced budget for the next 10 years.

The government used the clause in order to strike a deal with the BCGEU, and now that they have done it, they are using that like a pair of handcuffs, and most taxpayers like myself that hear the whole situation are going to find it tough to side with the teachers. Our government can't afford to pay more than 1.1 a year, and I am VEHEMENTLY opposed to paying more taxes, its just not going to fucking happen.

EDIT: I guess it comes down to how far the government can stretch the fact that the teachers last deal was a 0/0. Maybe they can word a portion of the deal to demonstrate its retroactive, this could make up a portion of the difference.

[MG1]

The nurses got more, I think, but it was all hidden in benefits and whatnot.

[tonyzoomzoom]

this government is just a big bully, imo. They will legislate things away that they don't like. For the teachers, the only thing they will be left with at the end of the day in their collective agreement is the ability to "negotiate" their salaries / wages. And even then there is little to negotiate, since they will essentially get what other government employees are getting.

[tiger_handheld]

Originally Posted by acrophobia

On Friday the bctf proposed:
-the creation of a workload fund that would be used to address class size and composition, and specialist teacher ratios
-salary increase of 8% over 5 years, plus 5k signing bonus
-withdraw all grievances stemming from the violations of the collective agreement since 2002

On Sunday night the government countered with:
-no extra funding to the workload fund
-the ability to completely remove class size and composition from the collective agreement
-salary increase of 7% over 6 years (0.25% less than their previous proposal)

Like MG1 said, it's obvious the government is not negotiating in good faith. In an interview this morning Fassbender claimed that the government had negotiated all weekend and offered an increase in student funding and teacher salaries, all of which is untrue; their counter offer shows that they aren't even trying to end the labour dispute and will do anything in their power to avoid an increase in funding to the education system.

Also, please realize that most teachers, including myself, didn't choose the profession for the money or holidays: I'm a teacher because I love the job, and the vast majority of teachers share my passion. I work hard to make my classes exciting and interesting for students, I volunteer my time every day in the morning, lunch hour, and after school for extra help, and give up evenings and weekends with my family for four months to coach two different school teams. I'm not boasting or looking for sympathy, but remember that every year I am expected to more with less; the big push for individualized learning in larger and more varied classrooms with less funding for supplies, technology, and education assistants. My job is to make sure that I maximize the learning potential of each student in the class, but at some point student needs are missed occasionally, then more often, then quite often. I can only spread myself so thin.

I'm not asking for a huge wage increase and this strike isn't about my salary; I've already given up 4 days and 10% on 12 others, and am now facing two weeks without pay; I'm not making that money back any time soon. But I'm willing to take a financial hit to make my classroom better for my students and my own kids. I don't want my kids to be the high end or middle of the road students that fade into the background.

This morning's announcement was a punch in the gut. The entire province was and still is waiting for a resolution, but the government doesn't care. I keep reading that teachers "aren't really in it for the students". Well, I am. And at least I'm trying.

If the strike isn't about salary, why not agree and accept the salary deal but fight for classroom rights?

edit: I believe Fassbender offered a $1500 signing bonus if done by June 30 - now the teachers want $5000. And you tell me this isn't about salary?


If salary is not the biggest issue BCTF is concerned with you guys are doing a piss poor job of communicating that with the public. Last I checked, communication was one of the biggest things you learn in school..

If I were the teachers, I would go to the table with amounts in [ ]

- [2%] the creation of a workload fund that would be used to address class size and composition, and specialist teacher ratios
-salary increase of [ 5%] 8% over [6] 5 years, plus [1.5k]5k signing bonus
-withdraw all grievances stemming from the violations of the collective agreement since 2002 [ I dont know much to comment on this]

[Soundy]

Yeah and the BCTF is any better?

All those blaming the government for the strike, just remember one thing: it was the teachers' CHOICE to escalate job action. Nobody else's.

[meme405]

Maybe Ohki should actually weigh in instead of just failing people all willy nilly. Fucking beta phaggot.

I hate people who don't weigh in with an opinion and then fail others who actually contribute to the discussion.

[acrophobia]

Originally Posted by Soundy

Yeah and the BCTF is any better?

All those blaming the government for the strike, just remember one thing: it was the teachers' CHOICE to escalate job action. Nobody else's.

I can't defend every action of my union since I would also have done/would do things differently, but you can only poke a dog for so long before it bites back.

I'm not absolving the bctf of any responsibility for the strike, but at some point we have to makes things better. The system is not broken in its current state, but it hasn't been improving in my eight years of teaching and if the government has its way and continues stripping of class size and composition language, things will (not maybe, but definitely) go downhill quickly.

How do you bring attention and/or put pressure on this government to change? Striking sucks, but what else can we do? Missing a few days now to make the next five+ years better is hopefully worth the lost wages on my end and the inconvenience for students and parents on the other. You have no idea how happy I would have been this morning if both sides had made a deal; I just want to teach, plain and simple.

[MG1]

Originally Posted by Soundy

Yeah and the BCTF is any better?

All those blaming the government for the strike, just remember one thing: it was the teachers' CHOICE to escalate job action. Nobody else's.

So you are saying the teachers should have just said we are not happy we are not happy and sing kumbayah? They really don't have bargaining power unless they pull a strike. The rotating strikes didn't solve anything.

Like I said, the government wants a strike, because it's a win win for them. The BCTF could have been a little more prepared. Then again, look at who's at the head of the BCTF. Dude is like a 60's hippy gone bad. Not very eloquent, either.

Plus, this government doesn't give a shit about the laws. The reason? Christy Clark is used to this bullshit. Check out her outstanding record over at SFU. Yup, she was fined then and refused to pay. I believe she got kicked out because of it. Many were led to believe she got a degree there, but she was caught cheating in an election (ran for student president or something).

[acrophobia]

Originally Posted by tiger_handheld

If the strike isn't about salary, why not agree and accept the salary deal but fight for classroom rights?

edit: I believe Fassbender offered a $1500 signing bonus if done by June 30 - now the teachers want $5000. And you tell me this isn't about salary?


If salary is not the biggest issue BCTF is concerned with you guys are doing a piss poor job of communicating that with the public. Last I checked, communication was one of the biggest things you learn in school..

If I were the teachers, I would go to the table with amounts in [ ]

- [2%] the creation of a workload fund that would be used to address class size and composition, and specialist teacher ratios
-salary increase of [ 5%] 8% over [6] 5 years, plus [1.5k]5k signing bonus
-withdraw all grievances stemming from the violations of the collective agreement since 2002 [ I dont know much to comment on this]

The 5k signing bonus is certainly negotiable and is likely a move to get around the BCGEU clause that meme405 mentioned. While 5k would be great, I don't think anyone expects to actually get close to that number. The workload-type funding we have had the past two years is currently at 75 million per year; pre-2002 it was 300 million.

While I don't always agree with the methods of my unions, when it came to crunch time we reduced and reworked our proposal to something fair and negotiable while the government twiddled their thumbs for 48 hours.

[meme405]

Originally Posted by MG1

So you are saying the teachers should have just said we are not happy we are not happy and sing kumbayah?

That's how non-unioned employees do it.

It's very simple, every necessary profession has a market price. That market price is dictated by the number of positions available and the number of capable people willing to fill that position at any given time.

Non-unioned employees are paid based upon merit, do a shit job and you get paid shit (for the most part), keep doing a shitty job and you get yourself fired. Do a good job, and your pay rockets upwards, and you pretty much have guaranteed employment.

I don't see many engineers or accountants, or even general employees working for large office companies who have any problems making a living without striking. They seem to do just fine.

The place for a union in our culture is gone, the only people left working 80 hours a week are those who choose to. The people working for minimum wage, are those who do not yet have the abilities to do anything else (this can be for various reasons).

I'll ask another question from everyone:

1. What is the fundamental difference between a Teacher and a Bachelor of arts student working in an office setting?

2. Why does the Teacher need a union, and yet that Bachelor student seems to make an entire career with no problems, and certainly without the need for job action?

[Soundy]

http://globalnews.ca/news/1398017/a-look-at-whats-on-the-table-between-the-bcpsea-and-the-bctf/

[MG1]

Soundy, you old fart, you gonna make us copy and paste?

j/k


Yeah, the government offer looks good. I think most teachers would go for it. Unfortunately, the hippie wannabe and his merry men are speaking on behalf of the teachers. Who knows, perhaps some teachers might start to prod the union to get their shit together and reach a deal. As I've mentioned before, it's always the workers who get the short end of the deal.

I still think class size and composition should be decided by people other than the teachers.