School districts across B.C. planning deep cuts to balance budgets

[MG1]

Originally Posted by bing

And No, I disagree with MG1 that if you have the grades to get into UBC that you get easily get into an Ivy. I think you need min. 1300-1400+ SAT scores as well.

What? When did I say that?

[bing]

Originally Posted by MG1

What? When did I say that?

sorry. Correction godwin.

[Lomac]

Funny enough, it's actually not that hard to get into an Ivy League school. I know two people who are attending them, one at Brown and the other at St Andrews. The biggest issue for them wasn't grades, but the cost of associated with attending. As neither one of 'em came from a rich background, they busted their asses to get scholarships and bursaries and everything else they could get their hands on.

As for the UBC comparison, I believe it's course dependent at certain Ivy League schools. You may need X to get into Politics at St Andrews, but only Y for Physics.

[MG1]

Originally Posted by bing

sorry. Correction godwin.

Oh, okay. At least I'm in good company

[bing]

St. Andrews is in the UK and not one of the 8 ivies (brown, cornell, harvard, U penn, dartmouth, princeton, yale, columbia), which are all on the US east coast.

[godwin]

I don't know what your personal experience is but I found getting into US universities not that hard for a Canadian, granted it was a couple decades ago. I went to Cornell Engineering but I also got into Brown for Computer Science, for the same score I was also admitted to all the universities in Canada that I applied for.

After working with a few profs who helped designed the testing schemes at ETS. and having taken SAT. I would say SAT is a lot easier than provincials since it is not subject based AND it is known one is able to train for it. (whether a student would train or not is another question). The key here is prep time, you only know you cannot achieved the best score not on the first try, I think the mean is about 5+ times, when you performance plateaus. I think these days computerized simulation helps a lot.

As for the essay part, I think it is easy as long as you had spend time around at campuses and are familiar with the university and what they do. For Cornell it can be a riff about the counter culture around the area.

The issue with US universities for Canadian parents is you have to start really early to travel with your kids to the universities to help them select. Most of my classmates and I started at grade 10, to visit universities, attend summer camps, practice writing essays, 11 is basically a test application and 12 is the actual application . It is way more productive than helicoptering kids till university that a few of you seem to imply? (seriously!?) Do parents still wipe their kids asses in high school these days?

The advantage of the US? If you are a student you have an idea, the university is more than happy to help you patent / start your business, or pair you up with a prof to mentor you (don't be too trusting would be my advice here). I think that is invaluable. Coop is great and chances you will get your green card that way. Not to mention there are more post grad places in the US (no matter it is med, law or liberal arts)

I admit it will be impossible to talk to Vancouver public school career counselors about it because it is just an area they are not familiar with. It seems very weird that a lot of young Vancouverites seems to think the world ends at the Rockies and the Columbia River.

Originally Posted by bing

And No, I disagree with godwin that if you have the grades to get into UBC then you get easily get into an Ivy, which have acceptance rates ranging roughly from 6.72% - 14%. There are also minimum SAT scores you probably need to be accepted which many students can't attain without an excellent grasp of English. Another personal anecdote, my other cousin even got rejected for Stanford undergrad yet she was obviously capable since she ended up graduating magna cum laude from a different Ivy and then later getting an MBA as class president.

[bing]

Godwin, it sounds like you had a privileged background growing up and were one of the brighter students. My neighbor is from Cornell as well but I still think that statistically, it is hard to get in.

For example (assuming these numbers are realistic):

Total undergraduate enrollment -- 15.7 million
Total four-year college enrollment -- 11.5 million
Total Ivy entering/graduating class -- 14,000 (Cornell and Penn are pretty big)
Total Ivy enrollment -- 60,000

So . . . Ivy graduates are about 0.9% of total bachelor's degree recipients. Ivy students are about 0.6% of total four-year college full time students, 0.5% of all four-year college students, and 0.4% of all college students.

Also, I found this on a blog but can't verify the numbers.

Brown University:

Out of 30,946 applications received, Brown University accepted 2,692 applicants. That’s an 8.7% admit rate, including applicants who applied both Early Decision and Regular Decision. For the fall of 2011, Brown anticipates an incoming freshmen class of about 1,485 students.

In recent years, Brown has experienced a 50% surge in applications. Three years ago, for the Class of 2012, Brown received 20,630 applications.

Here are the highlights of the admitted Class of 2015:

Geographic Diversity: Admitted students hail from all 50 states. The states with the highest number of accepted students are: California (393), New York (322), Massachusetts (216), New Jersey (141), and Texas (101). International students were admitted from 79 countries. The nations with the highest number of admitted students were from China (57), India (34), United Kingdom (33), Korea (30), and Canada (28).

If I had to make a guess, I would say it is much harder to be accepted today with all the competition from international students and the larger number of people entering post-secondary (along with the fact that with the Internet, everyone knows which are the top schools to apply to).

College Admissions: Ivy League Acceptance Rates Decline | TIME.com

[Lomac]

Pft. Anyone can get into Cornell these days.

[godwin]

I would say BC students are doing okay on terms of competition (ranked 3rd in the world). In fact you will be amazed the large contingent of Canadian students at US grad schools.Considering we are talking about Ivy League schools which are invariably private US universities where students are considered by merit and the same no matter it is out of state or in state. Where BC Students lack are parental awareness and honestly school counselors that are not very good.

My family is not rich but middle class, but my school had a school counselor who cared and see Canada is not the only country in the world for education. He himself was US educated. I think that made a huge difference as he invited pretty much all the Ivy League reps to come and give talks. I am not "bright" either, I prefer median + a bit less of one SD.

By the time parents are aware of the US opportunities (Grade 11 or 12) it is always way too late. I don't find it too surprising, but I find it is the new immigrant Chinese parents who are most on the ball realizing the opportunities of US colleges. They sink the time in for research and visits. (not to mention some rather lack lustre efforts like educational consultants).. but they care vs I find local parents just seem to moan and groan how hard it is to get into UBC and do crap all or constructive about it. If you kid score a solid 85 and can't get into UBC, don't stick them to Langara etc! there are alternatives in the States on the East coast.

For students who are interested to US colleges. Look up universities local alum meetings, usually once a year. You get a free dinner at a fancy hotel and get to meet and greet some officials and students and get a sense of what the university are like. VISIT the college and surrounding area, do a summer camp (Grade 10).. It is not just for private school kids, I know a few students from the inner city who got invited to the Yale science camp this summer. The key is research and connect early. The kids initiated the connections themselves, and I have to say the teachers were hapless.

Originally Posted by bing

If I had to make a guess, I would say it is much harder to be accepted today with all the competition from international students and the larger number of people entering post-secondary (along with the fact that with the Internet, everyone knows which are the top schools to apply to).

College Admissions: Ivy League Acceptance Rates Decline | TIME.com

[Traum]

Canadians studying in US universities should be way expensive. Not unaffordably so for middle class families, but definitely way more expensive than sending them out to other Canadian universities. We have lots of good schools across Canada that are close to UBC / SFU level, and I'd say those are more financially viable than sending someone down to the States or overseas.

[godwin]

Of course it is, but if your kids only score 86 in provincials.. or have aspirations to work as in fields like automotive engineering or technology, US just offers a heck lot more opportunities.

Besides some places like North Western.. living costs is extremely low.. 3 bedroom houses in the college down is about 70k.

I content most public school counselors in BC are not aware or know how to approach it because it is not on their radar or priority. Advising their students to local school is just easier and areas they are familiar with in detriment of their students.

Originally Posted by Traum

Canadians studying in US universities should be way expensive. Not unaffordably so for middle class families, but definitely way more expensive than sending them out to other Canadian universities. We have lots of good schools across Canada that are close to UBC / SFU level, and I'd say those are more financially viable than sending someone down to the States or overseas.

[gars]

Like Traum said, I don't understand how a middle class family affords to send a kid to the US for schooling. Yes, you will have more opportunities coming out of university - but you will also be heavily in debt. Unless your family has saved 100k+ (just for tuition), you will be saddled with massive student loansout of graduation.

A 3 bedroom house may be cheap to buy outright because of their housing bubble that burst, but your tuition alone will cost you more than the house.

[godwin]

If a family bought a house in the early 2000s.. time to put that home equity to work?

You do realize say UBC denistry annual tuition is ~50k right? (no gov subsidy vs med school). All education involves some kind of debt.

Calculate how much kids spend on Hockey in the summer / soccer or baseball in the summer and fall, camps etc it adds up. So any sane human being would do is to plan with finite resources.. much like this thread is all about (callback to the original argument). What do we do with finite resources.

Of course each family has their own priorities. However I do believe it is viable for most. You won't live like a chav in the States, put your head down and work hard (there are amazing amount of bursaries reserved for Canadians). Much better than moan and groaning how your kid can't get into UBC.

Honestly I do think tertiary education is another frontier at the fight for jobs in the global economy, we have highly qualified new immigrants competing with local kids for local university placements and local parents are caught napping (I think simply don't care). Don't complain your are stuck at home with minimum wage jobs because you choose not to compete.

Life is full of uncertainty, but one thing is certain if you expect and wait for other people to do things for you, you are bound to fail.

Originally Posted by gars

Like Traum said, I don't understand how a middle class family affords to send a kid to the US for schooling. Yes, you will have more opportunities coming out of university - but you will also be heavily in debt. Unless your family has saved 100k+ (just for tuition), you will be saddled with massive student loansout of graduation.

A 3 bedroom house may be cheap to buy outright because of their housing bubble that burst, but your tuition alone will cost you more than the house.

[Ulic Qel-Droma]

a family friend of mine got into harvard, and is now an intern at one of the major banks in new york.

the banks pay these interns 2500 a month, and i think supply then with 2500 dollar rent money a month too.

her rent is 5000 dollars per month for a 200sq feet apartment split with another intern. lol. (washrooms are shared with other apartments haha).

you guys tell me, how anyone in the middle class or below can ever land or support themselves through this.

remember, this is while paying your Harvard tuition.

that being said, her family has millions so it's not a problem.

and that being said, she's probably gonna do it a for a few years, reach middle management and pull in several hundred k a year, then quit cuz she'd rather have kids and do more important things in life than slave away for a bank haha...

[Mr.HappySilp]

Originally Posted by Ulic Qel-Droma

r, then quit cuz she'd rather have kids and do more important things in life than slave away for a bank haha...

Important thing as in get implants and plastic surgery and marry a rich husband, then start her own "Super Duper Rich Asian Mom show"?

[bing]

I think it'll be a challenge affording US tuition if your not at least upper middle class (even though many people tend to identify as 'middle class', there's a huge distinction in terms of resource availability between those in the lower middle, middle middle, and upper middle classes i.e. see Bourdieu's distinctions on social/cultural/economic capital). Average US tuition even at state universities should be way higher than us including the fact that international status means higher prices.

I agree that the US has more choices in schools especially post-grad. For instance, my buddy's girlfriend is an eye doctor and she told me there is only one school for that in Canada whereas there are a number in the US.

[godwin]

2 one is Waterloo and the other is Montreal but the Montreal one you need university level French. You don't have an option if you choose to self deselect in a school"s core requirements.

The closest school of optometry to us is Seattle.

Originally Posted by bing

I agree that the US has more choices in schools especially post-grad. For instance, my buddy's girlfriend is an eye doctor and she told me there is only one school for that in Canada whereas there are a number in the US.

[adambomb]

Anyways... Can we pleeease get back to thinking about the children!!

VANCOUVER (NEWS1130) – Another potential mediator has declined a request to get involved with the ongoing teachers dispute.

Supreme Court Justice Stephen Kelleher participated in exploratory talks with the BC Teachers’ Federation and the BC Public School Employers’ Association.

Kelleher has found that both sides remain too far apart for mediation to be effective.

Fassbender adds the government is committed to balancing the budget and has an obligation to “deal fairly with all 300,000 B.C. public sector workers.”

“However, the BCTF continues to demand total compensation gains that are more than twice what other unions have settled for. On top of that, they are also pushing for hundreds of millions more each year in other contract demands,” he adds.

BCTF and BCPSEA denied by another mediator | News1130

[Traum]

A second potential mediator turning down the job. That is probably enough reason to confirm that all the mediators know how difficult / impossible it is to bring the 2 sides together, so nobody is gonna touch this big pile of shxt with a 10 feet pole.

[Durrann]

so no summer school at all now?

[Mr.HappySilp]

Originally Posted by Durrann

so no summer school at all now?

Looks like it. Is kinda of funny how the gov wants to summer school to open claiming is for the students who fail (Most likely they want summer school open for the $$$ from international students). The teachers came quickly and said they can offer summer school but only those those gr10 to 12 students what actually failed a class ONLY. Funny how it turn out and the gov is piss off now coz they can't milk the international students and the teachers know it.

[inv4zn]

Something I overheard over the watercooler and was wondering if it had any merit or truth to it.

Basis was that the government saves $$$ every day the strike goes on, because they don't have to pay the teachers.

So by prolonging the strike and refusing to negotiate, they now have the money to give the teachers and satisfy them.

So in the end, the teachers think they got what they wanted (a win), the government doesn't actually spend more money (a win), and the only ones shafted are the kids.

Again, not my opinion, but asking for opinions.

[Traum]

^^ Usually, that is what happens, and it has already happened that way the last few times.

[quasi]

Nothing will happen until Sept, I'm guessing the start of the school year will be delayed 1-2 weeks before finally either coming to an agreement or getting legislated back. The public backlash at that point will be so huge neither side will have a choice.

[MG1]

So, this 10% claw back that the government initiated and got LRB ruling on has nothing to do with extra curricular work (coaching, arranging games, etc. ) it has everything to do with what is expected of a teacher. Attending staff and department meetings, planning, supervision duties, marking, etc. When the teachers went into stage two, they were not doing those things - so why pay them? I have no idea how the LRB came up with 10%, but it could have been more, way more. It's a moot point since a full out strike means no pay, period. Just thought I'd point that out. A lot of people were confused about that part of the job action.

As for summer school, it ain't gonna happen. Some districts were planning on getting administrators to look after that, but it was too difficult to make it work.

As for legislating teachers back, it's no going to be that easy. They would have to declare education an essential service (life or death) again. There would be no bargaining and the alternative would have to be binding arbitration. Once that happens the other public sector unions would have to get involved. General strike.

I think the only way out of this is to suspend the talks on class size and composition on the promise it will be discussed. Settle on wages and benefits for the time being to make sure the school year starts off as it should. A third party has to be agreed upon to ensure the government not just make an empty promise. This way, the teachers won't be getting more than the other unions, things will get rolling again.

Can you tell I want that $225.00/hr job? LOL. It's a helluva lot more complicated than that, but what the heck.........

What will be interesting is while the government is saving oodles of money by not paying its teachers, the teachers themselves will eventually have to give in. They have to pay bills and feed their families. No win on the teachers' side. Government will wait it out. Only if their popularity suffers will they act.

Class size and composition should be fought by the parents. When I say that to people, the first thing they say back to me is, it ain't gonna happen.