Thoughts on laser jammers?
 

There are no specific laws banning the use of laser jammers, but apparently police officers can charge you with obstruction of justice. Heres an article regarding the actually offence:

Take the ?trap? away from speed trap before laser jammers considered obstruction.

What do you guys think about the use of laser jammers?

dont speed???

I think you're tempting fate, if I had the money would I rock one; yes. Will I get one, dunno cuz a detector "should" be enough.

And I suppose you drive everywhere and go the exact speed limit?

Detector is no longer enough with most PD's switching to laser.

The detector does nothing to warn you about laser, once your hit it might beep, but by that point the damage is done.

Also I don't think hes "tempting" anything, there are no laws against owning or using a radar detector or jammer in a civilian vehicle. There is a specific law drafted against their use in commercial vehicles and therefore if they were supposed to be illegal across the board the government would have made them illegal then.

Issuing an obstruction of justice ticket for a radar jammer is abuse of power.

Laser jammers are illegal under the criminal code. You are letting a judge to decide if you get a record or not, let us know how that goes :facepalm:

Technically, it is not illegal to own and operate a jammer, but if you are PREVENTING an officer from recording your speed, that is obstruction of justice.

Just going to leave this here

Obstruction of Justice is illegal under the criminal code, but there is no specific law banning the ownership of a laser jammer. The case in the article said that a "person cannot willfully obstruct the police if not clearly informed that the police are executing a duty prior to the alleged obstruction." The whole point of a speed trap is so that we don't know they're there.
This case is precedent, meaning any judge dealing with similar cases has to consider or have a similar decision to prior judges.

If the cop really wanted to charge someone for the use of a laser jammer, what other charges could they recommend? (that will stick)

So you are driving along with your laser jammer (a device designed to interfere with the operation of Police laser and prevent them from detecting your breaking of the law), powered up in case Police are operating laser units to detect your speed. If you are not expecting to prevent them from recording your speed, why are you using the jammer?

You may not know the location but you are attempting to obstruct any Police laser use that might catch you. If not, what reason do you have to use a laser jammer? The legal phrase "mens rea" means guilty mind and shows intent to break the law by obstructing the readings. If and when you encounter the laser, your jammer will jam the speed readings and you have obstructed the Police . How can you articulate that in court.

Section 129 of the criminal code. of the criminal code says: Every one who (a) resists or wilfully obstructs a public officer or peace officer in the execution of his duty or any person lawfully acting in aid of such an officer, (b)

They are not illegal anywhere in the law books, laws do not contradict each other and the above proves that they are legal. It is legal to own and operate a jammer and detector in BC and AB. So I don't have any idea what the fuck you are on about.

Also yes in theory you undermining the ability of an officer to do his job, but what my point was, why would they leave something so specific legal if they didnt want us using them. They could have just made it illegal and then charged you for that.

Instead the government said something was legal, and the cops found another way to hammer us about it.

Also if you are going to quote somewhere atleast give the source, don't worry i found it for you:

http://drivesmartbc.ca/equipment/rad...-laser-jammers

As well members in here can go read the compelling counter arguments in the comments.

As I said above, IF THE GOVERNMENT DID NOT WANT US TO USE THE DEVICES THEY WOULD HAVE MADE THEM ILLEGAL. Just because the cop found a way to still nail someone, and the judge upheld it that still doesn't necessarily make it right. In fact I would love to see one of these cases go higher in the court system to hear a real outcome, because as it sits right now the judges are just going to continuously uphold a stupid verdict.

I dont feel like going through this, but luckily a commenter in there shares my sentiments exactly. So I will just say that I concur with his statement.

EDIT: Out of curiosity about the reflective portion of the above, I have head the same thing a variety of times, and they even sell film and stuff meant to stop lidar traps. Since my car is vinyl wrapped a matte colour, would the officer not get a reading unless he hit my windshield?

And if so would that mean that my vinyl wrapping my car a matte colour was obstruction of justice?

Can you see where this line starts to get really fuzzy really fast?

Under the CCC, laser jammers are illegal, as it meets the elements of the offence for Obstruction.

BC may not specifically have a law or section under the MVA regarding jammers, but it does not make it "legal". A lot of provincial and city bylaws do not cover the same offences as the CCC. For example, Richmond does not have a blyaw against fighting in public, but fighting in public is an offence, Cause Disturbance, under the Criminal Code. Just because Richmond does not have a bylaw stating fighting in public is illegal, does not make it legal. That is not how it works.

Unless there is a statute in place in BC that specifically states laser jammers ARE LEGAL, it doesn't make it legal because there's no Provincial statute saying they are illegal.

My question for drivers who own jammers are; How often are you deliberately driving WELL OVER the speed limit, to have to own one of these? You will rarely ever get a ticket for going 10-15 over the speed limit, unless you were in a school zone.

Also if you are going to quote somewhere atleast give the source, don't worry i found it for you:

http://drivesmartbc.ca/equipment/rad...-laser-jammers


I didn't reference the link you provided and was not even aware it existed. My "quote" was from 28 years of traffic enforcement experience, which included a CC obstruction conviction for using a jammer.

Laser jammers do not obstruct, they simply delay the reading until the operator turns the jammer off, I hardly find 2 seconds delay an “obstruction of justice” the officer will not get a JAM code, not unless they use Laser Atlanta, and those guns will shows JAM for many reasons, if you ever worked with laser guns before, you’ll know those laser guns will show “JAM” because of sunlight hitting the gun, car being too far away, and if the vehicle is not reflective. All modern guns do not show JAM, they simply don’t show a speed.


Nice to know that you also are trained in the operation of Police Laser. This entire quote is not true in my training and experience....eg. sunlight does not show a "jam"....and I have "worked with laser guns"... BTW, trained operators do not call them "laser guns"

Woah we got a badass in here.

@meme405

Let me guess, law student? :lawl:

Are you volunteering? I would love to see you pick up a jammer and test it out since you seem to have the 'I'm 110% correct' stance. Heck, I would love to see you build a pointless case just to go up to a judge and claim that 2 seconds is not enough to obstruct justice. :haha:

The judges in these cases have already sided with authority. Why? This is to protect the safety of the public and their interests in terms of speeding Just because you know how to question something in context doesn't mean shit. Remember DUI laws that was ruled unconstitutional?

A laser jammer is also not 100% guaranteed to get your ass out of trouble. Even if a lidar unit does not get a reading due to being jammed, a knowledgeable officer in this situation could easily pull you over in search of evidence. This is pretty much a guilty conviction in itself.

Just because it hasn't been outlawed by big brother does not make it legal. Until it becomes a common occurrence, the law in context isn't changing because it is a waste of time. Even though judges have already handed out guilty convictions.

I don't know what's worse, trying to prove your point that with no regards to the reality of the situation or the fact that speeders use laser jammers just so they can speed.

buy jammer.
cut car panels
shove that bitch in (4 corners if im not mistaken)
wire the bitch with all wires hidden.
weld those panels back on.
bulletproof.

You took the above out of my quote when I was speaking directly to Tarobbt. So that was not direct at you when I said a source should have been provided. I know full and well that you speak from your own experience and I respect that.

On the note of that quote; it was from someone at the link, I did not validify what he was saying nor am I trained in the use of Lidar. I simply agreed with his general premise that jammers are simply a countermeasure against radar they are not obstructing the officer.

Nice try but no, show me where jammers are illegal in the CCC. Lets take this one fucking step at a time:

Ignoring their use, obstruction of justice, or all that other bullshit, IT IS 100% LEGAL TO OWN, DISTRIBUTE, AND HAVE INSTALLED ON YOUR CIVILLIAN VEHICLE A RADAR JAMMER.

I can show you exactly where it says it is ILLEGAL, for a commercial vehicle to have these types of devices, but in that very section (or any other section) it makes no mention of legality in regular civillian vehicles. Wouldn't you say that our brilliant law makers would have included ALL vehicles if that was their intention?

Also this thread has nothing to do with my driving habits, or if and when I need a radar jammer. A simple legal question was asked, so lets stick to that. If you would like to talk about speeding, we can take it back to any number of the other threads which digressed into that topic, where everyone eventually reached a stalemate.

No, I am just a lowly welder, millwright and engineer, but that has no bearing on this thread, also I am not being a badass, I am simply digging into the facts, facts which you have no understanding of apparently.

So its not 100%, then why the hell should it even matter?

And no once again having a radar jammer is NOT something thats worthy of conviction. That makes no sense.

What? I don't even understand what point your getting at.

Lets get to the root of this:

1. There was a specific law drafted that made jammers Illegal in commercial vehicles. In this same law they make no mention of civilian vehicles, so by design law makers allowed civilians the right to use jammers in their vehicles. My point everytime I say this is because they could have easily just said "ALL VEHICLES" or banned the use outright, but they didn't instead they specifically only did so for their use in commercial vehicles. So clearly at some point a group of individuals sat down and examined the issue and decided normal people are well within their rights to use this type of equipment withing their day-to-day life.

2. You say I am obstructing the officers ability to do his job, I say that I am simply using a tool at my disposal to protect myself and the occupants of my vehicle. A tool which apparently Law makers felt was perfectly fine for civilians to use.

Actually I may as well point out in regards to Spidey and Tarobbt questioning my driving habits and such, I do not have a radar detector or a jammer installed in my vehicle.

In fact the only thing I have is a dash camera and thats just to protect me from the other idiots who have no idea how to navigate a roundabout or 4 way stop.

I have 1 speeding ticket in 8 years of driving. (yes it was an excessive speed, and yes it was quite stupid, but it happened and I learned from it).

Since then I keep a much closer eye on my speed and I don't find myself in trouble at all.

Also its worth pointing out that years ago the chief of the police association asked the attorney general to make jammers illegal across the board and their request was denied.

Jammers remained legal in civilian cars, so as the police are, they found a way around the problem and instead bent a different law to their favor.

The way the Law system works here in Canada, is that once a ruling is made on a matter all following rulings uphold that verdict, that is until someone starts to take the rulings to the appeals court or the supreme court to in order to see what the rulings are among a panel of judges and law makers.

What appears to have happened here in my mind is that one judge made an unfortunate decision and now since then that frankly stupid verdict is being continuously upheld. As I stated before I really would like to see this issue be moved to the supreme court and see what they have to say on the matter, as I truly believe that having jammer does not fall under the intent of the obstruction of justice offence.

As Ian toothill once stated himself:

Its unnecessary, weighs down the legal system, and costs tax payers a lot of money for an almost Non-issue

I never questioned YOUR driving habits or accuse you of having a laser jammer. I questioned those who have them installed in their vehicle. I wonder why someone would go out of their way to install devices such as radar detectors and laser jammers, when the majority of people who get caught speeding are ones who are travelling well over the limit.

As for the legality of the jammer, there isn't any laws against a jammer specifically. You can also, own, sell, and use a kitchen knife. But if you use the knife to rob someone, you are now committing robbery. No where in the CCC does it say a kitchen knife if illegal. Same goes with jammers. The device in itself is not illegal. You use it to interfere or interrupt duties of a cop, then you are committing a CCC offence. Whether you believe it is Obstruction or not, that is up to you. For people with common sense, it is perfectly clear that if you buy a device that is only meant to be used to interfere with Police equipment, it is hard to argue it isn't Obstruction. At least with radar detectors, it is giving you a heads up, and not messing with Police equipment.

I guess you are okay with criminals having radio jammers too. The concept is the same thing.

The difference between a kitchen knife and a radar jammer is that a kitchen knife has a legal practical use.

Whereas by your definition the only use of a jammer is an illegal one, so then why have them as legal?

Lets bring together two likes, take heroin for example. It is illegal to use heroin, therefore the law also says it is illegal to make, sell, or otherwise have heroine on your persons.

If it is illegal to use jammers, then they should make them illegal to sell, use and install as well... And yet instead they have made it perfectly legal to own, have installed or sell such devices...

I didn't make the law, so you are asking the wrong person. Personally, I do think jammers should be illegal because there is only one use for it. And it has already been banned in the majority of Provinces in Canada, so I personally don't see why it shouldn't be illegal. What is going to happen is that people will be nailed with a CCC charge and possible conviction for Obstruction, rather than a VT (which is only a charge under the MVA).

Steroids are not illegal to possess, but is a controlled substance and is illegal to sell or distribute. So your idea of what makes or should make something legal/illegal is flawed.

Yeah that was a little flawed but I think you understand my point.

Like I said, the police specifically asked the Attorney General to make Jammers illegal and they were rejected in my mind right then the decision was made that Jammers are legal.

Instead the police decided they were unhappy with that point and went about bending laws in their favor to create the rules they wanted. The police are taking it upon themselves to pursue something they have no authority to pursue.

It is absolutely mindboggling how an MVA infraction has ballooned into a criminal conviction, that is simply such an abuse of the criminal code that its almost criminal in itself. As said before its like using a sledgehammer to swat a fly.

EDIT: Also nice try retracting your statement on heroin, but I am much faster than that...

If the Police were bending the laws, Crown Counsel would have caught it and wouldn't approve of a Charge that they thought had an unlikelihood of conviction. That said, it seemed like the judge even agreed the laws were not "bent".

If there are municipal, and or provincial bylaws, those are enforced before CCC investigation. Like in Vancouver, there is a bylaw that prohibits people from fighting in public. Those people are nailed with a fine, rather than being charged for a CCC for Cause Disturbance. The fact that there are NO laws against jammers, isn't really giving the Police much choice. You can't honestly think the Police are going to be okay with having people jam up their equipment left right and centre, and not do anything about it.

As for the heroin comment I edited, I retracted it as I wanted to make sure I did had not missed some case law regarding "possession". From what I can see, having drugs in your system does not constitute as possession, in Canada.. Unless you've ingested a condom full of drugs to smuggle lol

Lol drug law is so convoluted now, it makes no sense anymore. I think what you said was correct, but then again I don't really know much about that stuff as I am not a user nor do I give a fuck about it at all.

Much like drinking and driving I think that users should have the book thrown at them.

The question I always have about radar detectors and laser jammers, is that generally to get one worth owning you're spending several times the cost of a standard speeding ticket. So unless you're currently getting speeding tickets very frequently it makes no sense to get a detector/jammer.

And even if you do jam the signal can the police not eyeball your speed? the radar detectors told you to slow down before the police saw you, but a jammer will just block the laser when they can already see you.

Also note that almost all pickup trucks are plated as commercial vehicles.

I would presume it's only considered to be "possessed" if you're able to retrieve the substance.

I've ran a jammer/shifter/parking aid/countermeasure or w.e you want to call it, and I install them.

Owning a Laser Jammer is legal, having it installed is also legal, but the operation of the jammer is illegal as you are obstructing the officer from doing his duties. I have yet to personally hear of anyone being charged with obstruction in BC because of operating a jammer, it may or may not have happened.

One client of mine was pulled over for speeding (ironic), and when he went to go reach for his insurance papers in the glove box, the officer saw the unit, and wrote a VI box 1 to have the Jammer removed from the glove box. The laser heads could all stay, but the control unit had to be removed. Another incident was when a 997 911 Turbo jammed a police laser unit, and he was pulled over anyways because the officer suspected the car had a jammer equipped. This was because the imbecile didn't switch off the jammer after he slowed to an appropriate speed. The officer found the control unit in the car, and took his knife to it and cut it out and kept it.

Why run a jammer? Because when I'm doing 75 in a 60 zone in traffic flow, I like the piece of mind that I can slow down right to the speed limit when being tagged by a cop. I probably wouldn't get pulled over for doing 75, but its just better to do 60. And before a smart ass says why not just do 60, you try driving everywhere with the needle at exactly the posted limit while traffic flies by you.

Some of the people I've installed these units for are under the impression that they can simply do 180 everywhere because a cop has no evidence of speed. One person I know spent nearly 5,400 on jammers and detectors, and then did 160 near UBC and lost his license the day after. Officer clocked the obvious speeding car, either got the speed or error code and then pulled the car over anyways.

If you are buying a jammer thinking that speed limits no longer apply, I'm glad to take your money and watch you get caught in the end. If your going to be speeding, use common sense and don't rely on equipment to get you out of it.

Is it worth it? Meh, on the fence about it, they do work, and they have saved me when I definitely deserved a ticket. But the costs of good jamming equipment and risk of getting caught is something you should consider.

I saw someone mention radar jamming earlier, that will land you a criminal charge instantly and huge fines or jail if you are caught.

If it is illegal to use jammers, then they should make them illegal to sell, use and install as well... And yet instead they have made it perfectly legal to own, have installed or sell such devices...
__________________

Except in those provinces you listed where they are specifically prohibited. There is a difference between something being legal and being illegal. Just because something is not specifically prohibited, that does not make it legal. It just means it is not prohibited specifically.

The conditions under which something is used can make a 'not specifically prohibited" object, illegal. You can carry a hunting knife on you but take that "not specifically prohibited, ergo "Legal" knife, into a bar and it become illegal. You can legally consume alcohol in that same bar, but if you take it outside the premises, it's illegal. To misquote Austin Power's Dad..."it's not the size mate, it's how you use it"