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REVscene MotorsportsRS Motorsports by The Speed Syndicate RS Race Team
Pitt Meadows & Mission Raceway. Organize Race Pre-meets, post Racing related event Pics and discussion. In collaboration with The Speed Syndicate, Official race events presenter. [Solicitation of Professional Racing Events Allowed]
Got soaking wet yesterday but it was really good to learn RWD car control. Started getting comfortable towards the end of the day and used the throttle to steer the car a bit more in order to get more rotation.
Definitely not the ideal day, but good for learning throttle control!
First track day with the S2000 at Mission, I am very n00b at manual performance driving, kept on forgetting to upshift or downshift. Not terrible, but more practice needed. The TPS channel didn't work for some reason even though I got it to calibrate. Was great doing it in a 101 environment where it wasn't as pressurized and had an instructor sitting in the right seat coaching me.
Lesson also learned that Mission is really hard on S2K rear brakes - ran through half-depth pads in 2.5 sessions of 7-8/10 driving, necessitating an emergency trackside pad change lol. Car did really great otherwise, it's the driver that needs work. My manual skills are very bad, you can see me hesitating to shift or having problems letting out the clutch smoothly enough.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeanutButter
Damn, not only is yours veiny AF, yours is thick AF too. Yours is twice as thick as mine.. That looks like a 2" or maybe even 3"?
First track day with the S2000 at Mission, I am very n00b at manual performance driving, kept on forgetting to upshift or downshift. Not terrible, but more practice needed. The TPS channel didn't work for some reason even though I got it to calibrate. Was great doing it in a 101 environment where it wasn't as pressurized and had an instructor sitting in the right seat coaching me.
Lesson also learned that Mission is really hard on S2K rear brakes - ran through half-depth pads in 2.5 sessions of 7-8/10 driving, necessitating an emergency trackside pad change lol. Car did really great otherwise, it's the driver that needs work. My manual skills are very bad, you can see me hesitating to shift or having problems letting out the clutch smoothly enough.
The fact that you had a set of pads ready to go meant you were well prepared. I've never brought pads to the track and I guess I'm either getting a tow home or not using the brakes.
The fact that you had a set of pads ready to go meant you were well prepared. I've never brought pads to the track and I guess I'm either getting a tow home or not using the brakes.
I didn’t have a set of pads ready, had to run to CT to get them (5 mins away in Mission thankfully) lol. S2000 uses same rear pads as 8th gen Civic rear so at least they’re common.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeanutButter
Damn, not only is yours veiny AF, yours is thick AF too. Yours is twice as thick as mine.. That looks like a 2" or maybe even 3"?
Looks like you were having fun and a great looking car!
One thing to keep in mind is that it is actually harder than you think on the brakes to brake less hard, and for longer. If the G meter in your video is accurate, you are braking at 0.3-0.4G with maybe peaks of 0.5G. That's definitely less than half of what I expect a modern street car with ABS can achieve on a dry day in a straight line such as coming into turn 1.
If you use the brakes harder for less time, you'll actually put less heat into them. (Mission is killer on brakes regardless, but this is still good practice). To achieve a margin of safety, you should still be braking basically as hard as you can, but just earlier, and let off the brakes earlier and roll into the corner.
For example - if you figure you can brake at the 3 marker in the best possible case scenario, then brake at 4 or 4.5, and as you get to your desired speed, get off the brakes and roll into the turn. Then, as you get more and more comfortable, move the braking point from 4.5 to 4, then to 3.5 and so-on.
First track day with the S2000 at Mission, I am very n00b at manual performance driving, kept on forgetting to upshift or downshift. Not terrible, but more practice needed. The TPS channel didn't work for some reason even though I got it to calibrate. Was great doing it in a 101 environment where it wasn't as pressurized and had an instructor sitting in the right seat coaching me.
Lesson also learned that Mission is really hard on S2K rear brakes - ran through half-depth pads in 2.5 sessions of 7-8/10 driving, necessitating an emergency trackside pad change lol. Car did really great otherwise, it's the driver that needs work. My manual skills are very bad, you can see me hesitating to shift or having problems letting out the clutch smoothly enough.
__________________ I'm old now - boring street cars and sweet race cars.
^ What he said. I was helping a new driver a few years back and they were cooking their brakes every session. Turns out they were dragging their brakes into every corner, and applying 20% pressure instead of braking hard and fast.\
Modern traction/stability control also likes to grab the rear brakes once it detects something it doesn't like. BMW and Mazda has very active control systems (for very different tuning methods), I'm not sure how active the system is on a S2000.
Looks like you were having fun and a great looking car!
One thing to keep in mind is that it is actually harder than you think on the brakes to brake less hard, and for longer. If the G meter in your video is accurate, you are braking at 0.3-0.4G with maybe peaks of 0.5G. That's definitely less than half of what I expect a modern street car with ABS can achieve on a dry day in a straight line such as coming into turn 1.
If you use the brakes harder for less time, you'll actually put less heat into them. (Mission is killer on brakes regardless, but this is still good practice). To achieve a margin of safety, you should still be braking basically as hard as you can, but just earlier, and let off the brakes earlier and roll into the corner.
For example - if you figure you can brake at the 3 marker in the best possible case scenario, then brake at 4 or 4.5, and as you get to your desired speed, get off the brakes and roll into the turn. Then, as you get more and more comfortable, move the braking point from 4.5 to 4, then to 3.5 and so-on.
Cheers,
Mark
I was being pretty gentle with the brakes on the S2000 because I don't fully know the limits of the car yet - first time out on a proper track with the car, and first time on new (old) RT660s instead of street tires. Was hoping to get braver with the brakes in the afternoon but had to deal with the rear brake pad issue and by the time that was done, it was the end of the day sadly.
What you were saying was what Norm was saying to me as well, he was my instructor for the day. Definitely something to work on, instead of braking more gradually. For me it was a challenge to integrate new car + new tires + new type of transmission into something resembling a coherent mess, and something that I definitely need to work on by adding more seat time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvoFire
^ What he said. I was helping a new driver a few years back and they were cooking their brakes every session. Turns out they were dragging their brakes into every corner, and applying 20% pressure instead of braking hard and fast.\
Modern traction/stability control also likes to grab the rear brakes once it detects something it doesn't like. BMW and Mazda has very active control systems (for very different tuning methods), I'm not sure how active the system is on a S2000.
Haha what is traction and/or stability control? This is an 02 with nothing but ABS in terms of "safety' nannies.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeanutButter
Damn, not only is yours veiny AF, yours is thick AF too. Yours is twice as thick as mine.. That looks like a 2" or maybe even 3"?
This is some really sloppy driving. For context it was the last lap and last session of the day, but somehow I got a PB. First 3 sessions of getting back out there since the Ebisu jump was rough. Turn 3 and Ebisu gives me the most trouble/PTSD.
By the time I got comfortable again, it was reaching 12 degrees. Not necessarily overheating conditions for stock FK8s, but on a tuned one (with stock cooling) I was kind of concerned. Fortunately, it only got up to around the temperature symbol (~60%) and came right back down and stayed down following 1/2 or less of a cooldown lap.
Tires felt great in the afternoon sessions once the hot PSI got to where I wanted it to be, which I didn't touch or monitor it further. I think the RE71RS are like the CRS/RT660. They suck on the first track day but are amazing once broken in.
The tune was hilarious on this track, but a little boring, I pretty much stayed in 3rd the entire time.
If anything, the DTC60s that I upgraded to (from CCRGs, PMU CRs) are amazing. I didn't realize how much a difference my confidence in the car would be with just good pads.
Edit - a weird phenomenon that I noticed.
I spent a lot of time at Axon (simulators), specifically VIMC + the FL5 (super oversteery) to prepare myself for this event, especially the fear of T3/Ebisu with what happened last time. When I was on track, I noticed that things that I practiced on the sim was actually applied to real life. Things like, brake points. VIMC took out the physical brake markers, but I could still "see" them based on the hours on the sim. I learned to stop death gripping the steering wheel, since on the sim, you would break your wrist. This allowed me to feel my car get loose through the steering wheel, and apply counter steer as necessary. Even the simplest thing, the very uncomfortable idea of transitioning off the brake and on the gas, while you're about to enter a corner, was made easier with the sim. The only thing the sim didn't help with was how absolutely terrifying T3 and Ebisu are.
Edit 2: Video resync'd due to variance between data overlay and video
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|| 18 FK8 | R-18692 | Rallye Red | 6 MT ||
|| SOLD 97 E36 M3 Sedan | Arctic Silver | 5MT ||
|| RIP 02 E46 330ci | Schwartz Black II | 5MT | M-Tech II | Black Cube | Shadowline | Stoff Laser/Anthrazit ||
|| RIP 02 E46 M3 | Carbon Black | 6MT ||
Thanks for sharing, and good on you for getting back out there!
Curious what your overall experience was from the Endless CC-RGs and PMU Crs to DTC60s are. I'm reading club racing forums that the DTC60s are all the rage these days but nobody really has anything to compare with other than some type of Pagid pads. For context as to why I'm asking is because I'm still running on factory pads.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIC_BAWS
I literally do not plan on buying another vehicle in my lifetime, assuming it doesn't get written off.
1. DTC60
To be honest, I went with this because of its availability on FCPEuro and while the DTC60 supposedly eats rotors, I don't do enough track days for that to be a concern. And the cost of rotors would be offset by being able to warranty the pads.
I didn't expect how much better of a driver I could be by using pads that actually stop the car. I thought the Endless CC-RG was pretty good at slowing down the car, but man the DTC60 blew it out of the water. I was able to do back to back laps without having to worry about anything. This is the first time in a long time of not having to do cooldown laps, though the cooler weather helped for sure.
The wear rate of the pad was quite high, likely due to me not doing CD laps. It wore about 50% after 6 x 15min sessions at VIMC. I'm not concerned about wear rate as I will warranty the pads.
Scale: 6 hot, 0 cool or 5 hot, 1 cool lol.
2. Endless CC-RG
Definitely one of my favorite dual-duty pads. Low noise, takes heat pretty decently, best bite that I've tried, but it warps rotors. I've warped EBC blanks, and 2x OEM drilled. The pad lasts pretty long, but I basically warp a pair of rotors every track day.
Scale: 2 hot, 2 cool
3. Project Mu Club Racer
I probably have a few used sets of these cause this is the popular upgrade to the OEMs. Many people run this pad. Personally, I don't love it. It feels like a better Hawk HP+, but it retains the negatives - strong bite but loud squeal and doesn't really stop the car.
Scale: 1 hot, 1 cool.
4. OEM (rumored to be Ferodo DS2500)
I swapped onto these during lunch at Mission and got back out there to set a baseline. It has way more stopping power than the Powerstop pads, but bite needs work.
Scale: 1 hot laps, 2 cool down.
5. Hawk HP+
I only really had these cause I gave a set of my spare PMU CRs to my friend so we can both make the track day. I used it once for one session at VIMC as the pads were too thin and overheated quite quickly. Good bite, doesn't stop.
Scale: N/A. 1 hot 4 cool.
6. Powerstop Track Day
- It blows up LOL. Well user error and I should have gotten Track Day Spec but it also shouldn't have blown up in one single session.
- Think of these as a budget (BAD) Hawk HP+
Scale: N/A DNF.
__________________
|| 18 FK8 | R-18692 | Rallye Red | 6 MT ||
|| SOLD 97 E36 M3 Sedan | Arctic Silver | 5MT ||
|| RIP 02 E46 330ci | Schwartz Black II | 5MT | M-Tech II | Black Cube | Shadowline | Stoff Laser/Anthrazit ||
|| RIP 02 E46 M3 | Carbon Black | 6MT ||
Oooh I love brake talk because I am terrible at braking.
I was recommended to run DTC60 on my F80 as well. I was wary about how much it would chew up the rotors and not being a street friendly pad and I really wasn't a fan of swapping pads back and forth. I ended up picking EBC Bluestuff all around for a dual purpose pad.
The Bluestuff blows the OEM BMW pad out of the water, but it still doesn't give me the confidence under braking like I had with my mixed F/R pad MS3. On a warm track day at Mission I ate through probably 1/3 - 1/2 of the pad. I wasn't the most happy, but I was doing quicker times than I ever had and keeping up with the quickest street cars.
With the OEM pads, I was on worn and heat cycled PSS and I was still overheating the pads after 3 hot laps (1:25-27ish). With the Bluestuff it was 1.5 laps to warmup my tires and the brakes could last most of the session. Things start to drop off at the end of the session though when the ambient temperature gets hot (1:18-19).
One thing I found out recently is that BMW electronics does this brake preload thing which causes the brakes to be inconsistent and varies every time how it stops. I've got it coded out now but I haven't had a chance to try it out. Some ppl say it's a game changer even on the street but I frankly don't feel like difference is huge on the street as I'm not going all FnF everywhere. Still waiting to hit the track this year but I might not have the time to do it.
I'm still iffy about running track pads on the street, but that's just me. My home track isn't brake intensive so I'm okay on stock pads and rotors given my vehicle and skill level. Need to get faster.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIC_BAWS
I literally do not plan on buying another vehicle in my lifetime, assuming it doesn't get written off.
Ooo track pad talk. Got a set of G-Loc (aka Carbotech) R8 for front and back, will report back once installed and tracked. The way your car’s brake balance is set up probably plays a big part of it too. TIL that S2000s chews up rear pads ��
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeanutButter
Damn, not only is yours veiny AF, yours is thick AF too. Yours is twice as thick as mine.. That looks like a 2" or maybe even 3"?
FWIW, I would have stayed with OEM pads, if I had a brand new set. But I didn't so I went with DTC-60. I imagine brake bias would be a little bit messed up - DTC60 in front, PMU CR in the rear.
I swap back and forth between my street and track pads though. Pretty easy to do, part of my pre/post track work.
__________________
|| 18 FK8 | R-18692 | Rallye Red | 6 MT ||
|| SOLD 97 E36 M3 Sedan | Arctic Silver | 5MT ||
|| RIP 02 E46 330ci | Schwartz Black II | 5MT | M-Tech II | Black Cube | Shadowline | Stoff Laser/Anthrazit ||
|| RIP 02 E46 M3 | Carbon Black | 6MT ||
FWIW, I would have stayed with OEM pads, if I had a brand new set. But I didn't so I went with DTC-60. I imagine brake bias would be a little bit messed up - DTC60 in front, PMU CR in the rear.
I swap back and forth between my street and track pads though. Pretty easy to do, part of my pre/post track work.
Depending on how you like the brakes, mixing pads is a cheap way to adjust your brake bias. On my MS3 the setup is something like 80-85% front bias. I was at 90k when I swapped the rear pads, and I swapped it because I was tracking the car and not because it was worn and the OE pads still had life left. The discs were still good.
I went with a more aggressive rear pad and it turned out great for Mission. I could really throw down the anchors and feel the rear brakes working for once.
Engine oil - once a year. [Edit] I should note that I drive the Boxster less than 5000km per year and track weekends were two days a month from May to October.
Transmission fluid - as per factory service interval (aka every few years or if I need to drop my gearbox.)
Brake Fluid - My home track is not brake intensive, so I don't cook my brake fluid. Otherwise, once every two years as a preventative measure.
Diff - not applicable
Is this too little? Or too much? When my engine blows, I'll let you know.
But there are some guys in the local BMW and Porsche club who change their oils after every track event.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIC_BAWS
I literally do not plan on buying another vehicle in my lifetime, assuming it doesn't get written off.
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