Palestine & Israel

[Noir]

Originally Posted by FS1992EG

Wow, this don't understand that if every Muslim hate Jews, why Israel continue to exist? They would wipe Israel off the map right?

They guy generalizes his words and uses them to manipulates you into hating Palestine's tactic and loving Israel because they seem to be following the rules by the book.

do you know they've tried right? And tried and tried?

[multicartual]

I jewish girls

[Ulic Qel-Droma]

as do i.

natalie portman, gal gadot, scarlett johansson... mmmm

[StylinRed]

Add to that list Mila Kunis

but what we're really saying is we like eastern european chicks




Back on topic though Israel has intensified attacks which are being said as the heaviest attacks since the start of this mess

and today the power plant, tv/radio station, greek orthodox church, mosques were bombed...



over 100 dead

[CivicBlues]

Hey StylinRed,
Where's the separate thread for the 5,500 Muslims killed by ISIS in Iraq in the last couple months?

Where have you misplaced your outrage for the over 250,000 dead in that clusterfuck known as Syria?

Oh right, they're Muslims killing muslims, that's not as easy as harping on Jews for killing them in self-defence

[multicartual]

Originally Posted by CivicBlues

Hey StylinRed,
Where's the separate thread for the 5,500 Muslims killed by ISIS in Iraq in the last couple months?

Where have you misplaced your outrage for the over 250,000 dead in that clusterfuck known as Syria?

Oh right, they're Muslims killing muslims, that's not as easy as harping on Jews for killing them in self-defence

Wow!!! Right on!!!

[Presto]

Welcome back, CB.

[StylinRed]

Originally Posted by CivicBlues

Hey StylinRed,
Where's the separate thread for the 5,500 Muslims killed by ISIS in Iraq in the last couple months?

Where have you misplaced your outrage for the over 250,000 dead in that clusterfuck known as Syria?

Oh right, they're Muslims killing muslims, that's not as easy as harping on Jews for killing them in self-defence

i didn't create this thread

i've refrained from creating political threads for quite a long time now

i think the last one i did was about Bahrain and their slaughter of their own citizens with the help of the Saudi military (or maybe i just discussed that in one of the other topics)

i believe i have mentioned isis in some other threads about their insanity and there already was a thread about Syria which has long died away (also not started by me)

you've been here a long while you must know the plight of palestinians has always been a great concern to me hence my activity in this thread, again one which i didn't create.


maybe you should do a search or something before trying to look cute? or maybe instead of attempting personal attacks you should concentrate on the actual issue?



edit: yep i discussed isis in a couple of posts in the no need for a new thread thread, and discussed syria and bahrain in the major syrian thread that died away and the 2 bahrain threads
none of which were started by me as i've said i've long refrained from creating political topics

edit2 i didn't even make a thread about the myanmar genocide of rohingya (buddhists slaughtering muslims)

Also if you'd like to start a thread or revitalize an old one revolving around the topics you've discussed i'd be glad to participate in it

[CivicBlues]

No worries SR,
You could have had me confused that you're not the OP here, but you are definitely the most active poster on this thread pushing the Palestinian side n'est pas?

I haven't been active here much lately, spending the past 3 years or so traveling and settling back here in Vancouver, so forgive me if I haven't been keeping up with your latest Cause célèbres.

Part of my travels took me to the Arab world (Turkey (not Arab I know), Jordan, Egypt, Israel and the West Bank), where I have to say I received some of the most hospitable encounters I have had throughout the world.

edit: I saw for myself the 10 meter high Separation Wall, and what the Palestinians had to go through to ride a bus into Israel. It is heart tugging, but then you realize if they didn't have these checks, cafes in Tel Aviv would still be exploding on a monthly basis.

However, I can't say the same about my time on the Palestinian side where I was spat on, pushed, had coffee thrown at, given the slanty eyes (I'm Asian) and generally treated with hostility in a lot of places such as East Jerusalem which sees tons of tourists. Granted, they are under "occupation" as you say but I did also encounter a ton of well adjusted Israeli-Arabs who really just wanted to get on with their own lives.

Far be it from me to see an analogous situation in Gaza, where they are without a doubt under siege. And I definitely don't condone the killing of kids from a few bad experiences on my part. But a part of me sees their almost fatalistic approach to life as almost as a contributing factor to the situation they're in now. When they parade their dead through the streets and call for a "Day of Rage" and the destruction of Israel, how is that helping anyone? Least of all themselves. How is it that the oft compared to Apartheid South Africans were able to elect Nelson Mandela, whereas the Gazans elected Hamas? Something to ponder...

[Lomac]

Shit, Civicblues... you're alive!

[StylinRed]

The election of Hamas was certainly a surprise for all but I think it speaks to the hopelessness that Gazans must feel after decades of Fatah going nowhere...unfortunately the world didn't give them a chance to change their ways and immediately blacklisted them and the Gazans...the world was surprised by Sinn Fein as well

Who knows what all the violence since 2006 has done to the perceptions Palestinians have of Hamas...will they have bolstered Hamas' support? as they may be seen as the only party fighting back against Israels violence. Or will the Palestinians have lost faith in them? if the elections are held in October we'll see I guess (meant to have happened a few years ago 2010 iirc)

I can't speak for your experiences with Palestinians, that sounds horrible and unlike my own (i've got slanty eyes myself, i'm mixed) but I guess racial prejudices exist everywhere

[CivicBlues]

Originally Posted by Lomac

Shit, Civicblues... you're alive!

Yeah I pop up every couple years now to see if I left something behind

Far be it from me to make any sort of call on this conflict. I was just a tourist. There's people far more educated and involved first hand on the subject. I can't imagine what it's like to have to be humiliated day-in-day-out at a check point by a gun-totting 18 year old Israeli just to go to work, or have to duck into a bomb shelter next to my house when I hear an air raid siren because some Palestinian feels he was slighted.

I did however, get a taste of it and it sort of reinforced my slight leaning towards the Israelis. For all it's faults (of which there are many), they've created a Democracy - one that includes Jews of all ethnicity (Ashkenazi, Sephardic, hell even Ethiopians) and from across the religious spectrum. They've even included in their nation the "enemy" - Arabs which at least on paper are equal citizens. I don't think the average Palestinian is given even the slightest consideration by Hamas, who seem to delight in their use as human shields to further their cause.

It's easy to root for the underdog. But I can't root for an underdog that has religious extremism as a state ideology. Or one that is inherently misogynistic and homophobic. Call the Israeli state racist if you must, but I bet you Dollars to Shekels that if given a choice between living under them or under the PA/Hamas, you'd be donning a kippah in no time. Heck, the Jews were the underdog for the last 70 years or so, which is why the Great Powers - ahem excuse the term - "conspired" to give them the arid wasteland which is now Israel. They, as Israelis like to say, made that desert bloom. Cross the border from Israel proper to the West Bank and there's a stark change from 1st world to 3rd world. It's like crossing the US/Mexico border on foot, which I've also done and DO NOT recommend. You sure as hell wouldn't expect the US Army to tolerate Mexicans digging tunnels and firing rockets into San Diego.

Sorry Palestinians, you poke a bear in the eye with a stick expect to get mauled.

[m!chael]

Originally Posted by CivicBlues

No worries SR,
You could have had me confused that you're not the OP here, but you are definitely the most active poster on this thread pushing the Palestinian side n'est pas?

I haven't been active here much lately, spending the past 3 years or so traveling and settling back here in Vancouver, so forgive me if I haven't been keeping up with your latest Cause célèbres.

Part of my travels took me to the Arab world (Turkey (not Arab I know), Jordan, Egypt, Israel and the West Bank), where I have to say I received some of the most hospitable encounters I have had throughout the world.

edit: I saw for myself the 10 meter high Separation Wall, and what the Palestinians had to go through to ride a bus into Israel. It is heart tugging, but then you realize if they didn't have these checks, cafes in Tel Aviv would still be exploding on a monthly basis.

However, I can't say the same about my time on the Palestinian side where I was spat on, pushed, had coffee thrown at, given the slanty eyes (I'm Asian) and generally treated with hostility in a lot of places such as East Jerusalem which sees tons of tourists. Granted, they are under "occupation" as you say but I did also encounter a ton of well adjusted Israeli-Arabs who really just wanted to get on with their own lives.

Far be it from me to see an analogous situation in Gaza, where they are without a doubt under siege. And I definitely don't condone the killing of kids from a few bad experiences on my part. But a part of me sees their almost fatalistic approach to life as almost as a contributing factor to the situation they're in now. When they parade their dead through the streets and call for a "Day of Rage" and the destruction of Israel, how is that helping anyone? Least of all themselves. How is it that the oft compared to Apartheid South Africans were able to elect Nelson Mandela, whereas the Gazans elected Hamas? Something to ponder...

This is so refreshing to see, someone who actually went to Israel and the territories providing his opinion on the matter. 99% of these armchair activists have no clue what goes on there, they just regurgitate whatever propaganda they happen to read that day.

Also, good catch on the difference between Israeli-Arabs and Palestinians, a lot of people don't notice that and it's a shame. Israeli-Arabs are a great people - Israel wouldn't be the same without them.

[StylinRed]

Originally Posted by CivicBlues

I did however, get a taste of it and it sort of reinforced my slight leaning towards the Israelis. For all it's faults (of which there are many), they've created a Democracy - one that includes Jews of all ethnicity (Ashkenazi, Sephardic, hell even Ethiopians) and from across the religious spectrum. They've even included in their nation the "enemy" - Arabs which at least on paper are equal citizens. I don't think the average Palestinian is given even the slightest consideration by Hamas, who seem to delight in their use as human shields to further their cause.

It's easy to root for the underdog. But I can't root for an underdog that has religious extremism as a state ideology. Or one that is inherently misogynistic and homophobic. Call the Israeli state racist if you must, but I bet you Dollars to Shekels that if given a choice between living under them or under the PA/Hamas, you'd be donning a kippah in no time. Heck, the Jews were the underdog for the last 70 years or so, which is why the Great Powers - ahem excuse the term - "conspired" to give them the arid wasteland which is now Israel. They, as Israelis like to say, made that desert bloom. Cross the border from Israel proper to the West Bank and there's a stark change from 1st world to 3rd world. It's like crossing the US/Mexico border on foot, which I've also done and DO NOT recommend. You sure as hell wouldn't expect the US Army to tolerate Mexicans digging tunnels and firing rockets into San Diego.

Sorry Palestinians, you poke a bear in the eye with a stick expect to get mauled.

edited my last post but i guess ill make it a separate post now


Keep in mind the governing Likud party of Israel rejects the notion of a Palestinian State that is up until 2009 when Netanyahu conceded the possibility of a Palestinian state with caveats (which he now says is Impossible) A view which is rejected by right wing members of his party...so it's not as if Hamas is alone in rejecting a two state policy and a hardline approach. Again I'm no fan of Hamas as I said in my first post in here I think they're going about it completely wrong but they're not the only ones to blame.

as for racism, bigotry, etc. in Israel the laws are there to protect against that i'll give that to Israel but that hasn't stopped it whatsoever
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Israel

with regard to the West Bank seeming like a 3rd world country in comparison to Israel... well.. what do you expect? its not as if the West Bank is free to develop and do as they wish and most of the West Bank is overrun with settlements and buffer zones which prevent development


time to go for me for now though so you can rest easy I won't be posting in here for several hours :P

[CivicBlues]

Originally Posted by m!chael

This is so refreshing to see, someone who actually went to Israel and the territories providing his opinion on the matter. 99% of these armchair activists have no clue what goes on there, they just regurgitate whatever propaganda they happen to read that day.

Also, good catch on the difference between Israeli-Arabs and Palestinians, a lot of people don't notice that and it's a shame. Israeli-Arabs are a great people - Israel wouldn't be the same without them.

Thanks.
Don't get me wrong, I had a great time in Israel and recommend anyone go visit once the current situation dies down. I'm not even the slight bit religious but Jerusalem is probably the most fascinating city you can visit and Tel Aviv is a basically a beautiful Mediterranean European city. Israelis are a little brusque and in your face but once you get over that they're pretty friendly. The West Bank has amazing history and scenery, but the people seem so downtrodden and resigned to their fate that I really hope they sort themselves out soon (not to mention they seem to be raising packs of delinquent kids as a result).

I've been to places even poorer and with oppressive authoritarian governments and even there the people seem happy to be alive and for what they have - including hope for the future. I can't blame Arab culture for it either as I got loads of smiles and welcomes from just a few miles away in Jordan. If the Israelis are the ones to blame for their mindset then they are truly the Big Brother's of our time - which I find hard to believe.

[m!chael]

Originally Posted by StylinRed

edited my last post but i guess ill make it a separate post now


Keep in mind the governing Likud party of Israel rejects the notion of a Palestinian State that is up until 2009 when Netanyahu conceded the possibility of a Palestinian state with caveats (which he now says is Impossible) A view which is rejected by right wing members of his party...so it's not as if Hamas is alone in rejecting a two state policy and a hardline approach. Again I'm no fan of Hamas as I said in my first post in here I think they're going about it completely wrong but they're not the only ones to blame.

as for racism, bigotry, etc. in Israel the laws are there to protect against that i'll give that to Israel but that hasn't stopped it whatsoever
Racism in Israel


with regard to the West Bank seeming like a 3rd world country in comparison to Israel... well.. what do you expect? its not as if the West Bank is free to develop and do as they wish and most of the West Bank is overrun with settlements and buffer zones which prevent development


time to go for me for now though so you can rest easy I won't be posting in here for several hours :P

Hey man, I'm really happy you pulled up that wikipedia article to show that there is racism in Israel. CivicBlues should have known not to use his real life experience to counter your internet expertise on the matter.

[CivicBlues]

Originally Posted by StylinRed

edited my last post but i guess ill make it a separate post now


Keep in mind the governing Likud party of Israel rejects the notion of a Palestinian State that is up until 2009 when Netanyahu conceded the possibility of a Palestinian state with caveats (which he now says is Impossible) A view which is rejected by right wing members of his party...so it's not as if Hamas is alone in rejecting a two state policy and a hardline approach. Again I'm no fan of Hamas as I said in my first post in here I think they're going about it completely wrong but they're not the only ones to blame.

as for racism, bigotry, etc. in Israel the laws are there to protect against that i'll give that to Israel but that hasn't stopped it whatsoever
Racism in Israel


with regard to the West Bank seeming like a 3rd world country in comparison to Israel... well.. what do you expect? its not as if the West Bank is free to develop and do as they wish and most of the West Bank is overrun with settlements and buffer zones which prevent development


time to go for me for now though so you can rest easy I won't be posting in here for several hours :P

I think a lot of racist attitudes may come from the old country - a great many Israelis are recent immigrants from Russia and Eastern Europe - countries not known for their racial diversity or tolerance. As they get more settled (and hopefully in more peaceful surrounds) they'll grow into the liberal society we see in Western Europe.

As for the West Bank, you're absolutely right that they've been restricted and cut off by settlements and private roads. But you've got to ask, why is that? Is it perhaps the Israelis can't trust them to even drive on the same roads with the "natives"? I have to say the settlement issue really does exacerbate things and is a huge mea culpa on the Israeli side.

[StylinRed]

Originally Posted by m!chael

Hey man, I'm really happy you pulled up that wikipedia article to show that there is racism in Israel. CivicBlues should have known not to use his real life experience to counter your internet expertise on the matter.

its not internet expertise where i garnered that expereience though, but as cb admitted he was merely a tourist and only got to see things on the surface

even you have to admit that prejudice/bigotry has been an issue in israel when it comes to ethiopians, sephardi jews, arabs
there have been protests over it within israel in recent years even...

anyhow

[m!chael]

Originally Posted by StylinRed

its not internet expertise where i garnered that expereience though, but as cb admitted he was merely a tourist and only got to see things on the surface

even you have to admit that prejudice/bigotry has been an issue in israel when it comes to ethiopians, sephardi jews, arabs
there have been protests over it within israel in recent years even...

anyhow

I wasn't aware that you visited Israel, but if you did then that's pretty awesome. I hope that apart from all the racism and suffering you experienced you at least got to hit the beach and have some good Shawarma.

100% off the bat I will admit that there are still racism issues in Israel, but it's minuscule compared to what you're insinuating. Incidents happen, as they do in every other country, but things have gotten and are getting better on the ground. Also I can't help but lol at you bringing up Sephardi Jews being discriminated against. This shit is none existent in mainstream Israeli society, and if anything, sephardi jews were the main culprits of racism towards Russians when they immigrated to Israel en masse in the 90's.

Edit: you too babe

[Ulic Qel-Droma]

welcome back dude.

Originally Posted by CivicBlues

I bet you Dollars to Shekels that if given a choice between living under them or under the PA/Hamas, you'd be donning a kippah in no time.

exactly what I have been saying.

[CivicBlues]

Hey SR,
Have you been to that part of the world? Or have family there? I'm not being facetious, I'm just curious since you seem to have a personal (?) stake in this discussion.

Anyways, with regards to the racism issue - I'm not saying there's no racism there at all. There is definitely some as with any multicultural society. But putting aside the whole Gaza incursion/Occupation hate on you have for them right now would you as a person of mixed heritage rather live in Israel or the West Bank? Or any of the other Arab States? I don't think anyone who values their freedom would choose the latter

Most places in the world are racist and and if there's one thing I discovered on my travels it's that Canada is probably the best place in the world to live as a "minority" - and yes that includes the country of your supposed "origin" as well. It's not perfect but it's the best we got.

[Lomac]

One side of my family is Jewish, with many of my relatives living in Israel. So is it wrong that I just don't particularly care what the fuck happens over there?

Yeah, I know all about the history of the area and all that jazz, but still...

[StylinRed]

Originally Posted by CivicBlues

As for the West Bank, you're absolutely right that they've been restricted and cut off by settlements and private roads. But you've got to ask, why is that? Is it perhaps the Israelis can't trust them to even drive on the same roads with the "natives"? I have to say the settlement issue really does exacerbate things and is a huge mea culpa on the Israeli side.

that's just inane...it would be like someone breaking into your house, seizing it, kicking you out to the curb, and building a moat around your house and blaming you for there being a moat :P

Originally Posted by CivicBlues

Hey SR,
Have you been to that part of the world? Or have family there? I'm not being facetious, I'm just curious since you seem to have a personal (?) stake in this discussion.

that's a bit too personal but i'll answer it in a pm

Anyways, with regards to the racism issue - I'm not saying there's no racism there at all. There is definitely some as with any multicultural society. But putting aside the whole Gaza incursion/Occupation hate on you have for them right now would you as a person of mixed heritage rather live in Israel or the West Bank? Or any of the other Arab States? I don't think anyone who values their freedom would choose the latter

I would have no problem living in Jordan or even Syria (before the current disaster there) I doubt I would have an issue living in a free Gaza or West Bank either but none of us can be certain until that day.

But I don't see how a "free" Israel is justification for their actions? If that "freedom" is built upon an ongoing slaughter and subjugation of innocents then that freedom is a false one.

[4444]

Originally Posted by FS1992EG

I think you need to reevaluate the word terrorist because you seem to label someone who want to defend themselves as terrorists.

Terrorism, defined as:

"the use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims."

Defense does not fall within this realm and I do not think the actions of hamas is in defense - really, can you defend yourself against israel. This isn't even a war, a war is two people fighting - israel isn't fighting the palestinians, they are fucking them over royally, resulting in thousands of deaths.

Palestine cannot defend itself, so why try, i don't say this from any perspective other than that of someone who wants the killing to stop.

Violence worked hundreds of years ago, but in this day and age you need to have the world view, which is tough when it basically boils down to two groups hating each other for being a different group. But if all Palestinians just stopped everything, gave away all their weapons, went to the UN Security Council and said 'violence is getting us killed, please help this situation' then there might be hope - that or they'd be wiped out entirely, but Israel would have no justification then.

can you honestly say, without doubt, that there is any other end to this conflict? thousands of people are dying, no one is interested in stopping Israel (which is wrong), but as long as Hamas fires at Israel, even though it is 1 puny rocket against a thousand big rockets, Israel will feel justified, and those that support Israel will probably agree. We all know this is stupid as fuck, but as long as Israel can justify their actions, they will, and Fox News will broadcast it with great aplomb (I'm right wing as hell, but hate fox news, they don't represent the right side of the political spectrum, they represent ignorant bible thumping inbred racists who happen to vote tea party / republican - but that's a side comment)

If anyone thinks this is me saying 'Israel is right, the Palestinians started this all' (CiC), then you're an idiot, what i am saying is that this needs to stop. It will not stop whilst Hamas / Palestine is armed with anything bigger than a pellet gun, they need to take the first step to stop this. Factually, Israel won't, and there is not enough world force to push anyone to stop them. Again, let me force my position to say that this is not right, but it's the only end in sight. The UN has been saying that Israel's actions are uncalled for, but nothing is happening, nor will anything happen (I hope i'm proven wrong, but then again, it'll all just start up again in 2 or 3 more years, like it has in the last 2 years and 3 years before that). Repeating the same actions with an expectation of a different result, as we all know, is defined as insanity.

I want peace, i couldn't care less who is right or wrong, i just don't care, i'm not religious, i have no personal interest in the region, but i do not ever want innocent people dying, i do not want any assets used in commerce destroyed in the name of war. I see the above as the quickest and easiest way to get to this point.

however, this will end up with the Palestinians being in their same shitty position. Guess what, we, the world, fucked up when the whole situation started 60+ years ago - the Palestinian people today are still suffering that decision, it's a totally shitty situation to be in (those words aren't strong enough), but let's be realistic here, no one will force Israel to give that land back, it's just not on the cards. We hopefully, as a world, will never make this same mistake again... but what has happened has happened.

If anyone comes back with a 'ya, but they took their land' - well, that's already been established a bazillion times and isn't an issue that will ever be resolved, unfortunately.

What makes me really sad is that we get one life (sorry to say, there aren't 72 virgins on the other side, i hope we are all intelligent enough to realize this), i'd rather try to enjoy my life and be good to my neighbour, no matter who that neighbour is, to be a better world citizen. Though, i think being a non-religious person enables me to say this, the more hard line religious groups can't seem to do this... again, if someone comes back with 'ya, but israel is oppressing the Palestinians' I'm well aware of this, but if we're all better humans, change will happen. Israel is being oppressive, that situation will not change until change is made, I've outlined the quickest way to do that above.

We cannot look at this situation as compared to our situation or whatever, we have to look at where they are now and where they will be in 1 year, 10 years, etc. as it stands, every day gets worse and worse - change needs to begin

finally, for anyone that thinks that i should tell the israelis to stop - why, they won't, no one will make them, they feel justified in their actions. they are wrong, but so are the palestinians that kidnapped and killed those 3 jewish lads, as were the israelis kidnapped that palestinian kid and murdered him - wrong after wrong after wrong does not make a right, and given the palestinians are the only ones taknig any real casualities, they have more of an interest in ending this NOW.

if you see the above post as anything other than someone that loves peace, then i pity you, as you'll end up an absolute pillock in life.

[4444]

Originally Posted by CivicBlues

No worries SR,
You could have had me confused that you're not the OP here, but you are definitely the most active poster on this thread pushing the Palestinian side n'est pas?

I haven't been active here much lately, spending the past 3 years or so traveling and settling back here in Vancouver, so forgive me if I haven't been keeping up with your latest Cause célèbres.

Part of my travels took me to the Arab world (Turkey (not Arab I know), Jordan, Egypt, Israel and the West Bank), where I have to say I received some of the most hospitable encounters I have had throughout the world.

edit: I saw for myself the 10 meter high Separation Wall, and what the Palestinians had to go through to ride a bus into Israel. It is heart tugging, but then you realize if they didn't have these checks, cafes in Tel Aviv would still be exploding on a monthly basis.

However, I can't say the same about my time on the Palestinian side where I was spat on, pushed, had coffee thrown at, given the slanty eyes (I'm Asian) and generally treated with hostility in a lot of places such as East Jerusalem which sees tons of tourists. Granted, they are under "occupation" as you say but I did also encounter a ton of well adjusted Israeli-Arabs who really just wanted to get on with their own lives.

Far be it from me to see an analogous situation in Gaza, where they are without a doubt under siege. And I definitely don't condone the killing of kids from a few bad experiences on my part. But a part of me sees their almost fatalistic approach to life as almost as a contributing factor to the situation they're in now. When they parade their dead through the streets and call for a "Day of Rage" and the destruction of Israel, how is that helping anyone? Least of all themselves. How is it that the oft compared to Apartheid South Africans were able to elect Nelson Mandela, whereas the Gazans elected Hamas? Something to ponder...

what a well said piece.