Coffee - how do you drink it and why?

[TOS'd]

Originally Posted by bcrdukes

I only drink Starbucks, McDonald's, and Tim Hortons.

7-Eleven > all the above

[cafe22]

Originally Posted by v_tec

Bump to an old thread that haven't had much love lately. Not a crazy coffee hipster like @bcrdukes but with the recent Amex Shop Small promotion ($5 credit off $10+ purchase), and awesome summer weather we been enjoying lately, I want to hit up a few cafes around town. Perference would be if they also serve some light snack/lunches as well. And maybe have their own beans to bring home if I find it interesting. Aside from Agro and 49th Parellel, any other suggestion around town? TIA.

Suggestion that ranges from 'entry-level' speciality to 'we take each coffee bean very seriously' cafes.

1. Soon Coffee
2. La Foret
3. Nemesis - 3 locations. But I prefer the North Vancouver location on a sunny day. Grab a coffee and pastries to go and enjoy the waterfront view.
4. IKTSUARPOK
5. Harken Coffee
7. Prototype Coffee

[Hehe]

I'm officially again without an espresso machine.

Parents got a new cabin, and they were packing everything up like mattresses and whatnot to go decorate and finish the place. They came over to my place to grab some stuff, and long story short, they took my Rocket as they loved the coffee from it and decided to just take it.

My dad said "just go get a new one for your place. Use my CC."

Since dad is funding the new machine, I think an upgrade is in order.

GS3? Slayer?!

For the ballers here with GS3, do you think a LM would be a worthy upgrade? or should I look at other options? I was looking into Decent and GS3. Slayer... as good as it is, and I've heard it to be the absolute ultimate machine for home. I'm just not sure how it compares to modern GS3 MP or Decent, especially considering the premium; a whopping 30% on top the already crazy expensive GS3.

[roastpuff]

Originally Posted by cafe22

Suggestion that ranges from 'entry-level' speciality to 'we take each coffee bean very seriously' cafes.

1. Soon Coffee
2. La Foret
3. Nemesis - 3 locations. But I prefer the North Vancouver location on a sunny day. Grab a coffee and pastries to go and enjoy the waterfront view.
4. IKTSUARPOK
5. Harken Coffee
7. Prototype Coffee

Don't forget Timbertrain! They also qualify for Amex Shop Small.

[cafe22]

Originally Posted by Hehe

I'm officially again without an espresso machine.

Parents got a new cabin, and they were packing everything up like mattresses and whatnot to go decorate and finish the place. They came over to my place to grab some stuff, and long story short, they took my Rocket as they loved the coffee from it and decided to just take it.

My dad said "just go get a new one for your place. Use my CC."

Since dad is funding the new machine, I think an upgrade is in order.

GS3? Slayer?!

For the ballers here with GS3, do you think a LM would be a worthy upgrade? or should I look at other options? I was looking into Decent and GS3. Slayer... as good as it is, and I've heard it to be the absolute ultimate machine for home. I'm just not sure how it compares to modern GS3 MP or Decent, especially considering the premium; a whopping 30% on top the already crazy expensive GS3.

The GS3 AV/MP and Decent cater to different espresso drinkers IMO. If you're not into the super hipster 3rd wave coffee (e.g. anaerobic geisha 90+ cupping score, nordic roast). and want a machine that is easy to use and consistent, go with the GS3. Match it with a Mazzer Mini or Eureka Mignon and you'll be able to make pretty great/amazing quality shots with most off-the-shelf espresso blends. The machine is pretty much bulletproof if you use it properly and maintain it from time to time. I've had my GS3 AV now for 5+ years and only had to change a couple of o-rings and an expansion valve.

Decent is a great machine if you want to be super scientific and spend countless times and beans to figure out the best way to extract the most out of your high-end specialty beans.

Have you considered a lever machine? I think it's a great piece of hardware to have at home and it's quite fun to use if you're only going to be making 1 or 2 shots a day. I would look at (from lowest to highest priced), Bezzera Strega, Profitec 800, Londinum R1 or L1, Olympia Cremina, Lapera Lever Machine. I'm not a big fan of la pavoni europiccola's because they are a bitch to match the right temperature.

[bcrdukes]

I'm using an Olympia Cremina and Ponte Vecchio Export lever machines. Both produce amazing espresso like no other, even on Starbucks and McDonald's beans.

The temperature control bit - you get used to it and learn to deal with it over time. I use the Rocket sometimes only and don't miss a pump machine.

[Hehe]

Thought about lever machines because a buddy of mine has a Bosco and the shot from that machine is amazing and incredibly forgiving. But it was hard enough to teach my wife how to make her own americano in the morning and not screw it up. A lever machine just doesn't make too much sense if I don't want to wake up twice a week at 5:30 to make a coffee for my wife.

Went to an acquaintance's house to try out his Decent. The machine is really good... but it lacked a touch of the artistic side of espresso making. Too much electronic control... with profile here and profile there... I think it pushes a decent (no pun intended) espresso machine into much more. However, it lacked that finesse that I seek for a machine in the high 4-figure range. It's like buying a high-end Casio G-Shock... it might tell time extremely well and be super versatile because it's water/weather/dust and whatever proof... but it will never have the finesse of a hand-built automatic watch.

Now, machines in the high 4 figures (or actually low 5-figure with tax in), basically the jump from the R58, seem to be moving toward having control over the flow rate or pressure profiling... much like GS3 MP, Rocket Epica or even Slayer/Synesso and lever machine... which all feature some sort of flow or pressure control. How do you guys find them? How much better can an espresso... say a single-origin from Agro for example, benefit from having this kind of control?

[bcrdukes]

I think only a very limited number of people can answer this one (namely cafe22) as I am not one of them who have experience with a GS3 etc. On the other hand, I've always personally approached it as a question of at what point is the upgrade to let's say a GS3 simply for marginal gains and a point of diminishing returns. Others may view it differently but after 10+ years of home use, I found chasing after unicorn shots so exhausting so I just enjoy it to the best of my abilities as-is.

Based on coffee zealot / real-world reviews of the Rocket Epica, I would recommend waiting until version 2 on onward are launched as the original version has a laundry list of issues due to electronics. It's possible they've already corrected the issues on them, so I could very well be wrong. The same applies to Slayers - they are a PITA for reliability and repairs. I wouldn't even know who would help you in Vancouver for them.

[Hehe]

I'm mainly thinking about whether to upgrade to a machine like GS3 MP or just stay where I'm comfortable with.

When I upgraded to a dual boiler from a Breville 870, the improvement I seek was consistency. Now, in order to justify an upgrade, I'm looking for something beyond just consistency. And from looking at home machines that are considered "ultimate"... it's about a super precise control over flow or pressure, something R58 doesn't have. However, I'm just unsure how that would change my coffee and whether it's worth the premium to experiment with it.

[cafe22]

I agree with bcrdukes, at that price spectrum, it's marginal gains when you compare a R58 to the rest of the 'holy grail' espresso machines (e.g. GS3 MP, Slayer 1 Group, NS Eagle 1).

The introduction of pressure and flow control for home espresso machines are an awesome feature to have, but I I personally do not have the patience or resources to tweak a dozen shots just to get that extra hint of blueberry note in my Kenyan AA.

IMO, any espresso machine utilizing a rotary pump and preinfusion will be perfect for home use. All the other electronic features honestly are just nice-to-haves.

I know Slayers have been known to be really difficult to repair locally, but maybe things have improved with their acquisition by Gruppo cimbali?

[cafe22]

Originally Posted by Hehe

I'm mainly thinking about whether to upgrade to a machine like GS3 MP or just stay where I'm comfortable with.

When I upgraded to a dual boiler from a Breville 870, the improvement I seek was consistency. Now, in order to justify an upgrade, I'm looking for something beyond just consistency. And from looking at home machines that are considered "ultimate"... it's about a super precise control over flow or pressure, something R58 doesn't have. However, I'm just unsure how that would change my coffee and whether it's worth the premium to experiment with it.

What grinder do you have?

I would use that difference in price between a R58 vs GS3 to buy a unimodal/high uniformity flat burr grinder (e.g. Lagom P64, EK43s, EG-1) to elevate your espresso making and taste experience.

[Hehe]

I'm currently on a Niche Zero. I have the Weber Key Grinder on order for my brother and was going keep either that or the NZ, but that was before my R58 was gone.

I'm thinking to sell the NZ and my bro will keep the Key and free up enough funds to get a Monolith if I were to go for a machine that's about the same as the R58.

[ntan]

Originally Posted by cafe22

The GS3 AV/MP and Decent cater to different espresso drinkers IMO. If you're not into the super hipster 3rd wave coffee (e.g. anaerobic geisha 90+ cupping score, nordic roast). and want a machine that is easy to use and consistent, go with the GS3. Match it with a Mazzer Mini or Eureka Mignon and you'll be able to make pretty great/amazing quality shots with most off-the-shelf espresso blends. The machine is pretty much bulletproof if you use it properly and maintain it from time to time. I've had my GS3 AV now for 5+ years and only had to change a couple of o-rings and an expansion valve.

Decent is a great machine if you want to be super scientific and spend countless times and beans to figure out the best way to extract the most out of your high-end specialty beans.

Have you considered a lever machine? I think it's a great piece of hardware to have at home and it's quite fun to use if you're only going to be making 1 or 2 shots a day. I would look at (from lowest to highest priced), Bezzera Strega, Profitec 800, Londinum R1 or L1, Olympia Cremina, Lapera Lever Machine. I'm not a big fan of la pavoni europiccola's because they are a bitch to match the right temperature.

Curious why the GS3 doesn't pair well with the modern hipster light roast coffee.

[bcrdukes]

@Hehe - I'd side with cafe22 on this one; Get a better grinder. The NZ is good but moving up to a Weber etc. will elevate it.

@cafe22 - Had no idea Gruppo Cimbali acquired Slayer. I'm really behind in the game, but then again, my opinion of Slayer has always been

Looking at their catalogue online, it doesn't appear they have anything new, so it's possible they've left Slayer alone (for now.) I would to believe they bought Slayer for their intellectual properties and embedded them into their own lines of product as to not to upset the American coffee zealots.

[cafe22]

Originally Posted by ntan

Curious why the GS3 doesn't pair well with the modern hipster light roast coffee.

I should correct myself and say my comment only applies to the the GS3 AV, and not the MP.

I personally have not had the best of luck with my GS3 AV with higher quality SO espresso. I think a large part of the blame points to my skills and patiences, but I also blame the flat 9 bar pressure which leads to over extraction with a longer shot time.

That's where the GS3 MP and other machines with pressure/flow control can shine. But for my daily espresso drinking preference, I prefer to have a routine where I can just press a button and let the volumetric feature do it's job while I focus on the milk prep.

[Hehe]

Yeah... one thing I heard about the Slayer is that it makes an incredibly long pre-infusion that's unique on the market and some light roast or anything hard to extract benefits greatly on it.

I'm going to check a few shops around town and see if I can get a comparison on these high-end machines. If not, it's getting a machine similar to R58 and get a Monolith Flat.

Now, regardless the options I pick, I'm plumbing the unit in this time around. Does anyone here have their machine plumbed in? If so, do you use any filtration system? And what would you recommend?

Water we have is fairly soft. So, I'm not super worried about scale build-up, but rather a good tasting water for the coffee. I looked into BWT solutions that many coffee gear shops sell, but the big benefit of it seem to be on the fact it does both filtering and softening at the same time, and we don't really need softening here.

[Hondaracer]

Water tested at my place in east Van has like 18ppm out of the tap in a 100 year old house. There’s virtually nothing to filter out with Vancouver’s water source

[bcrdukes]

Water in Vancouver is really soft, so there's no need to filter it, unless it's something you absolutely want to do like to filter out chlorine and stuff, then go for it.

Here in Toronto, the water is pretty hard and it varies in every neighbourhood. I moved out to Mississauga a while ago and there' a huge difference in hardness and that depends on where your water source comes from. Definitely need a water softener here. You guys have it good.

[Hehe]

I went to find my acquaintance again because I told him that I might be in the market for a GS3, and his friend just happens to have one on sale after upgrading to a Slayer 6month ago. I went in with the idea of trying out the GS3, and if every works, I'd get it off his hand.

But god that Slayer pulls one incredible shot. We tried the Hola from Kickinghorse, as it's a light roast he had that I've tried before on the R58, so I had a good idea how it was. I remember the R58 struggled with it. And today, even with the GS3 AV, the flavour profile is just so different. The shot from Slayer had a much-pronounced cocoa note on the first try vs. dialing 3 times on the GS3 to finally get something we were happy with. The grinder was a Mazzer IIRC so, nothing superb of a grinder, but definitely a consistent one.

Really have to find a GS3 MP now to try it out to see how it fares. But damn the Slayer is something else.

[bcrdukes]

If that is the case, go with the Slayer. You'd likely have buyers remorse if you get the GS3.

Which grinder was Slayer owner using?

[Vansterdam]

venti, half-whole milk, one quarter 1%, one quarter non-fat, extra hot, split quad shots (1 1/2 shots decaf, 2 1/2 shots regular), no foam latte, with whip, 2 packets of splenda, 1 sugar in the raw, a touch of vanilla syrup and 3 short sprinkles of cinnamon.

[Ch28]

I’m upgrading from my Breville Barista Express and was looking at the Rocket Appartamento because it has a water tank. I’m not looking to plumb in because it limits where I can have the machine so I was wondering if anyone else has any other suggestions for tank machines. Roughly looking to spend ~3k give or take a few.

[cafe22]

How are you enjoying your shots so far with the Express? Are you looking for improvements to steam power or temperature control? Or, are you looking for a machine that looks cooler/prettier in the kitchen? Will your 3K budget also include the grinder?

The Apartmento wins points for looks and will definitely be the talking point when you have friends or family over. But in terms of performance, you're not really getting the best bang for your buck.

If you're already used to the Breville system, the Breville Dual Boiler is a worthy contender. It is a popular machine amongst serious home baristas at a super competitive price point.

Another option imo would be the Profitec 300. Not as sexy as the Apartmento, but you're getting a dual boiler system with PID + shot timer.

If you looking to become a coffee 'nerd', I would take a look at the Rancillio Silvia Pro. Lots of similar features as the Profitec 300 and Breivlle Dual Boiler, but with a pretty timeless design and proven build quality. The Silvia is the OG machine for home-baristas and I think it goes well in any kitchen.

[Ch28]

Originally Posted by cafe22

How are you enjoying your shots so far with the Express? Are you looking for improvements to steam power or temperature control? Or, are you looking for a machine that looks cooler/prettier in the kitchen? Will your 3K budget also include the grinder?

The Apartmento wins points for looks and will definitely be the talking point when you have friends or family over. But in terms of performance, you're not really getting the best bang for your buck.

If you're already used to the Breville system, the Breville Dual Boiler is a worthy contender. It is a popular machine amongst serious home baristas at a super competitive price point.

Another option imo would be the Profitec 300. Not as sexy as the Apartmento, but you're getting a dual boiler system with PID + shot timer.

If you looking to become a coffee 'nerd', I would take a look at the Rancillio Silvia Pro. Lots of similar features as the Profitec 300 and Breivlle Dual Boiler, but with a pretty timeless design and proven build quality. The Silvia is the OG machine for home-baristas and I think it goes well in any kitchen.

Appreciate the insight.

I ended up getting a brand new Rocket Appartamento and Faustino grinder all in for $3500 so I jumped on that deal.

[bcrdukes]

Apartmento was designed to address the growing demand of coffee enthusiasts and market demographic for those living in condos where counter space is a premium. Performance wise, it's not going to blow your mind; it will just do the job.

I'd like to go back to a Silvia; I started my journey with one and it's about time they made some real improvements to it. I love the footprint of it; I didn't like how "Italian" it was when it came to repairs and maintenance. But overall, great machine where I learned lots and went through the aches and pains of espresso machine ownership.