The Best Performing Rear Wing for the FRS/BRZ/FT86

[iHeat]

Sorry to pop your bubble but planes use their wings to create lift, race cars use theirs to create downforce. That means that, theoretically, at high speeds they could drive upside down. I don't see the point of a FRS needing one as a OEM FRS can't even reach speeds that are capable of doing so.

[Timpo]

Originally Posted by white rocket

Besides, a wing like that on a bone stock car would look retarded as fuck.

yea gigantic wings sure have existed already, some of them wider than stock body, but they were heavily modified.
simply putting gigantic wing on a bone stock car doesn't make much sense.

Originally Posted by white rocket

What aspect of your design makes it superior to what is currently available? What's the gimmick basically? 'cause without something to differentiate you from the pack it'll be a tough sell. Not hating, just sayin'.

yeah that's what I was thinking too... other than the gigantic size, it's nothing new

[Timpo]

for a wing of that size, if you're looking for some innovations, I would at least make it active.

Bugatti Veyron, Porsche 911, Mitsubishi GTO, Toyota Supra(front lip), Lexus LFA, McLaren P1, etc....they all had active aero system.

[Timpo]

Mitsubishi HSR II was awesome, it even had dual active rear wing so that you can steer with airflow and active front canards, lip too.

[inv4zn]

Timpo, for fuck's sake, you can stop.

There was an episode of Top Gear where JC was making fun of members of the "Ferrari Owner's Club" about how they know every minute detail of every Ferrari ever made, but they don't own one.

[Timpo]

Originally Posted by inv4zn

Timpo, for fuck's sake, you can stop.

oh ok

[mos_skeeto]

I like to imagine Timpo having a folder in his My Documents called car pics and there is over a terabyte of pictures like above.

[BoostedBB6]

Originally Posted by Timpo

actually, if you engineer it right, sometimes you can gain significant top speed.
Shelby Daytona was 30mph faster than Shelby Cobra just because of aerodynamic efficiency.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1m9VONeM14

SPOON took this idea and put it on S2000, and it worked very well.
??????? PHILOSOPHY


Although they were not available in North America, Mazda had this car called Roadster Coupe in Japan. Same idea.



But still, nobody does that giant wing.

The reason for the increase in speed/performance was because of a smoother/less turbulent air flow over the car resulting in a lower drag coefficient. A wing will cause it to be higher no matter what you do.

[BoostedBB6]

My points stand. Bolting this wing, or any similar designed wing onto an FRS that is bone stock will gain no difference.
Leading minds in the world of racing will tell you the same thing. Real world vs ideas often differ.

Your wing on a stock FRS will only lead to slower lap times. Simple test for this would be taking the car to Mission Raceway. The only area where you would make any usable downforce would be 3/4 down the main straight where you don't need any downforce....infact you don't want any there. Once you get into the corners they are not fast enough to make use of the wing, so at that point it simply becomes more weight to carry around the track and cause more drag.

Another test you could do, drive down the highway and measure the increasing downforce on the rear of the car. At the same time measuring the increased lift at the front end of the car. Causing the rear of the car to squat with the increased downforce of this wing will cause the front to lift with will disturb the airflow over the car and to the wing as well as create lift from making the front end lighter and causing it to pitch up.

Now saw we are talking about a much faster track where you can retain more speed in the corners you would be able to generate more downforce. However with the vehicles limited power, added drag, added aero weight coupled with a now very light front end from the aero downforce....it simply will not work. These tests have been done with other wings on similar cars.....if it worked like this is would already be utilized by people wanting to lap faster

[BoostedBB6]

Also worth mentioning, a wing design like that has a high stall characteristing with a car like the FRS unless you get is far above the roof line due to the air flow of the wing. If you were to step the wing down in the center (similar to a 3d wing you see so much of these days) you would see less stall and more usable downforce.


Perfect example of the stall that you will most likely see with this style of a wing on the FRS.


Dropping the center section down like they do with these style wings will fix that issue.

Also, the use of the large side plates will help with the low pressure area and keep things planted. They tent to look silly but they are functional in that regard.

[Timpo]

^ yeah if it's that easy to stall, that's like carrying a giant airbrake all the time.
if wind ever gust from unintended direction that would also cause some problem.

[Timpo]

Originally Posted by BoostedBB6

The reason for the increase in speed/performance was because of a smoother/less turbulent air flow over the car resulting in a lower drag coefficient. A wing will cause it to be higher no matter what you do.

well decreased slip steam too, Shelby Cobra's windshield was creating huge slipstream and causing this air brake effect.

[Timpo]

With my completely amateur engineering knowledge, prejudice and very limited business/marketing background, here's my summary.

-Car enthusiasts do care about their cars' appearance. Your wing needs to be aesthetically pleasing.
-That wing is begging for VI when driven on the road.
-Gigantic wings have existed in the past. Not many people put that on their cars. Either due to functionality(extreme drag) or appearance.
-Who would put that on completely bone stock car? I've seen people lowering by 0.5-1.0 inch, get a lip and very subtle exhaust, but I have never seen anyone getting a big rear wing on a stock car.
-This product is not proven. Theory is one thing, but real world is another. Soichiro Honda(founder of Honda) came up with so many theories that are supposed to work, but something always different in the real world. Same as other tuners.
-At this point, from my amateur perception, theory isn't even looking that good due to induced drag and stall characteristics.
-We are yet to the theoretical numbers. What's the Cd? Drag/Lift ratio? at what wind speed? How durable is it? if it's creating huge downforce, can it sustain? What's the Vne airspeed?
-If there's actually something proprietary about this product, you patent it, and do a licensing deal with major tuners, professional race teams and race chassis/body manufactures.

[v67gsr]

Funny to read this thread. So many people with so little knowledge criticizing someone else idea.

I bet most nay sayer have never test any aero parts themselfves.

[Timpo]

Originally Posted by v67gsr

Funny to read this thread. So many people with so little knowledge criticizing someone else idea.

I bet most nay sayer have never test any aero parts themselfves.

The idea of big wing has existed.

Did OP actually test the wing himself? As far as I know he doesn't even have a prototype.

[v67gsr]

Originally Posted by Timpo

Did OP actually test the wing himself? As far as I know he doesn't even have a prototype.

Did you? My guess is you might have. I also think wing is all you have tested.

OP mentioned the wing is only part of a complete aero package.

[hud 91gt]

Timpo, it's a school project. Give it time. Personally other then personal opinion with my few aerodynamics courses i've taken in the past it seems it would create plenty of downforce. Whether or not it will increase/decrease his lap times is going to be pure trial and error.

The only thing keeping me very skeptical is the science of aerodynamics is not new. People have been racing cars for over 100 years, with few wings of this design. Yes, regulations may regulate the size etc in racing events. I don't know. But that doesn't stop a street legal vehicle manufacturer to design such a product for a "street car".

Interested to see the outcome.

[jing]

[lolersk8ter]

Originally Posted by Timpo

With my completely amateur engineering knowledge, prejudice and very limited business/marketing background, here's my summary.

-Car enthusiasts do care about their cars' appearance. Your wing needs to be aesthetically pleasing.
-That wing is begging for VI when driven on the road.
-Gigantic wings have existed in the past. Not many people put that on their cars. Either due to functionality(extreme drag) or appearance.
-Who would put that on completely bone stock car? I've seen people lowering by 0.5-1.0 inch, get a lip and very subtle exhaust, but I have never seen anyone getting a big rear wing on a stock car.
-This product is not proven. Theory is one thing, but real world is another. Soichiro Honda(founder of Honda) came up with so many theories that are supposed to work, but something always different in the real world. Same as other tuners.
-At this point, from my amateur perception, theory isn't even looking that good due to induced drag and stall characteristics.
-We are yet to the theoretical numbers. What's the Cd? Drag/Lift ratio? at what wind speed? How durable is it? if it's creating huge downforce, can it sustain? What's the Vne airspeed?
-If there's actually something proprietary about this product, you patent it, and do a licensing deal with major tuners, professional race teams and race chassis/body manufactures.

-Appearance is a subjective manner. Semantically, I find beauty and art of automotive components that functions well. It is not the popular opinion, but there are those who find functionality and purpose, to be art.

-Like many aftermarket parts we put on our vehicles, manufacturers usually state it is not their liability, 'For off road use only'. It is up to the discretion of the user to exercise the appropriate decision.

-One point I have stirred up is, the addition of my wing onto a stock vehicle. While I did not intentionally design this for a stock vehicle, I can still guarantee and will prove that my wing will improve lap-times. I am creating a product and listing out the specs and what it can be done with it, but it is up to the customer's imagination to decide what to do with it, even if it's for cosmetic reasons.

-CFD & Live testing is something that will take place. The stage I am at right now is beyond mere theories. The equipment I've used to result in what I have so far are very accurate, and are the same equipment used by some OEM car manufacturers, aftermarket manufacturers, and racing teams.

-My wing/mount does not stall similarly to the Miata example shown. My wing resembling or being similar to another does not mean it will perform the same way. Drag being produced by my wing will be overshadowed when one realizes the huge benefits the downforce will provide in reducing lap-times. You give up straight away time, for exponentially better cornering and braking times.

-I am missing the proper 3D model to perform the CFD with the car. That has not taken place yet.

-There are many different business models out there. I've built mine differently than the one you've stated.

[meme405]

Originally Posted by mos_skeeto

I like to imagine Timpo having a folder in his My Documents called car pics and there is over a terabyte of pictures like above.

No it's actually worse then that, because if you look at the pictures they are all linked to individual websites, not stored on his photobucket.

So that means he either has a MASSIVE library of bookmarks on his computer, or he fucking just googles all this crap every time he needs to make his point.

[Timpo]

Originally Posted by lolersk8ter

-Appearance is a subjective manner. Semantically, I find beauty and art of automotive components that functions well. It is not the popular opinion, but there are those who find functionality and purpose, to be art.

-Like many aftermarket parts we put on our vehicles, manufacturers usually state it is not their liability, 'For off road use only'. It is up to the discretion of the user to exercise the appropriate decision.

-One point I have stirred up is, the addition of my wing onto a stock vehicle. While I did not intentionally design this for a stock vehicle, I can still guarantee and will prove that my wing will improve lap-times. I am creating a product and listing out the specs and what it can be done with it, but it is up to the customer's imagination to decide what to do with it, even if it's for cosmetic reasons.

-CFD & Live testing is something that will take place. The stage I am at right now is beyond mere theories. The equipment I've used to result in what I have so far are very accurate, and are the same equipment used by some OEM car manufacturers, aftermarket manufacturers, and racing teams.

-My wing/mount does not stall similarly to the Miata example shown. My wing resembling or being similar to another does not mean it will perform the same way. Drag being produced by my wing will be overshadowed when one realizes the huge benefits the downforce will provide in reducing lap-times. You give up straight away time, for exponentially better cornering and braking times.

-I am missing the proper 3D model to perform the CFD with the car. That has not taken place yet.

-There are many different business models out there. I've built mine differently than the one you've stated.

OK, if you're missing the CFD, that's a problem. Isn't that like a first thing engineers take into account?
TRD body kit shown below are done by career engineers, they have done CFD, Navier Stokes, all the stuff I don't even understand, as well as multiple trials and errors.




I understand that appearance is a subjective thing however I do find F1, LeMans 24, Super GT, all those machines look amazing.
If you put a F1 wing on top of bone stock FRS? that may look funny.

Other than you telling us you went to school and studied aerodynamics, you haven't even showed us what your calculations and expected improvement on grip, skidpad, etc. You told us you simply can't explain it just because it takes too long. While that may be true, you could give us some very basic specifications like how many g of skidpad or how much % of loss of topspeed, how many lbs of downforce and drag @ how many km/h(or mph or knots) of windspeed, etc.

You're keep saying that your wing will improve laptime even on bone stock car, but by how much and on what race circuits do you have in mind? Because if you put a TRD GT wing on bone stock FRS, that might improve your laptime too. But the question is, is your gigantic wing superior to the TRD wing despite a huge drag on small torque vehicle like FRS. It doesn't even have to be TRD wing, but how is your wing fundamentally that much different than the other big wings on the market. Don't just say it can give you more downforce and drag just because you made it bigger...and not to mention, these things are not even proven.

Again, I do not believe this works, once the product is done, you might prove me wrong and I might look like a retard in the end. But it really makes me wonder why other engineers, like hundreds and thousands of engineers around the world, didn't think about making wings bigger and give more angle of attack if that's gonna give you that much of benefits.

[sekin67835]

LOL the armchair GMs are out in full force. Good job OP for trying. Let us know when u got results

[lolersk8ter]

@Timpo

I have yet to perform experimentation of the wing on the FRS. I've done experimenting on the wing on its own, and the wing on another vehicle. Because of that, I can confidently keep saying my wing will improve laptimes and that it will perform better than competitors—even without the more direct evidence of live-testing and CFD with the FRS. The flow dynamics and interaction of the wing from that test can be translated and adopted as a starting ground for the mount and wing placement you see here now. The mount/placement of the wing on the car is not finalized yet.

TRD had more than just improved lap-time performance in mind when they designed their product. They follow a business model different than mine. It does perform, but I know that mine will perform way much better.

I have not laid out the full spec of the wing and the expected performance it has on the FRS, because I have not reached that stage yet. It is important to keep in mind that this is still a product under development. I do request you wait then, as your particular questions can only be confidently answered once live testing has taken place.

There aren't many popular companies that make the same big wings with mounts that accommodate each vehicle design, or companies that experiment on the vehicles they advertise to be applied to. I even see many of the big wing companies are majorly flawed in designing and optimizing mounts, placement of their wings, etc. Many of the wing's you see on those hill-climb and time-trial cars are custom made and are not produced in batches for sale. Regarding their popularity, maybe they do not go through the same marketing and advertising strategy that I have in store. I wish that I'll reach the same branding level as APR or Voltex, and prove that my products outperforms theirs.

[jasonturbo]

[em1.ac]