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The Best Performing Rear Wing for the FRS/BRZ/FT86
Hey Revscene!
I'm currently working on creating an aftermarket rear wing for the FRS/BRZ/FT86. Currently there are already many choices out there, but I want to stand out from the rest by producing one that has ultra high performance. I started out 2 years ago when I wanted improved lap times on the track through aero mods. After studying the subject and researching the many companies that sell performance aero parts, I've concluded that many of them wouldn't give me the performance gains I was looking for. My background is engineering from UBC, and I took full advantage of the resources and knowledge I have access to and started from scratch in designing my own rear wing.
After over 80 different iterations designs and CFD testing, this rear wing is the result.
Design for the wing elements and position is set.
The wing mount for the final product will adopt this look, with perhaps some adjustments. The base of the mount is also up for design changes.
So far, there are 3 different endplate designs:
#1 is the most conservative, cosmetically. Produces the least downforce. Best used at 0° to 15°
#2 produces more downforce much more efficiently, with higher downforce and less drag. This is the by-product of endplate #3. Designed to be used at 25°
#3 is the the direct by-product from the experimental wing in the simulation. Produces over more 10% downforce compared to the shorter endplate.
The only thing finalized so far are the wing element profiles and positioning with one another. I have suppliers and manufacturers ready. The only thing left for me now is to spread word of what I have and collecting interests. Creating a website is also desired too. I plan on expanding this wing to other car chassis with different mount designs. In the near future, I will also work on a diffuser, undertray, and diffuser for the FRS that will yield the highest downforce gain in the market.
I hope this doesn't go against this forum's rules as advertising. Please express your thoughts and opinions. Ask questions if you have any. Any feedback is appreciated.
I hope to get CFD results of the wing on the car soon.
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Last edited by lolersk8ter; 02-14-2015 at 12:26 PM.
wow, can you make one for a miata ?? i wana improve my laptime aswell
Yes I can! But at this moment, I am focusing on the FRS chassis. I'll be creating a website soon, you'll be able to stay tuned for latest updates and development for other chassis.
Adding huge amounts of down force to a stock car will not net you much if any gains as all you will end up doing is compression suspension.
To make use of additional down force the whole car needs to be tuned for it.
So adding the wing to a stock FRS will give you more down force but that will translate to slower lap times, drop in fuel economy and the balance of the car would be thrown off at any kind of higher speeds.
On a track car its another story (when set up for it)
sorry if im being rude and I'm not an engineer however the first impression was, that thing is fucking HUGE.
Visually, that looks like you're heavily relying on angle of attack to create downforce.
More angle of attack, more induced drag. Maybe try redesign the shape of wing(not planform, I am talking about shape of airflow) so that it can create super low pressure at the bottom of wing?
What's the point of huge winglet? That looks HEAVY and for FRS/BRZ, I don't think you would be creating enough wingtip vortices or slipstream to the point you would actually need that...
Adding huge amounts of down force to a stock car will not net you much if any gains as all you will end up doing is compression suspension.
To make use of additional down force the whole car needs to be tuned for it.
So adding the wing to a stock FRS will give you more down force but that will translate to slower lap times, drop in fuel economy and the balance of the car would be thrown off at any kind of higher speeds.
On a track car its another story (when set up for it)
this.
That massive wing will only make sense on 800-1000+hp super high performance racing cars.
Suzuki Escudo and F1 cars have enough power to fight all the induced drag created from angle of attack, but for FRS/BRZ? I don't know about that.
Even professional who are fighting for best laptimes don't use that much of angle of attack.
if you want to gain your laptime, just get a widebody kit and wing that gives you some downforce without giving you too much drag, just adding one giant wing will not only add so much weight but will slow you down.
Anyways, rather than adding a giant wing at the back, which could potentially cause understeer, here are some alternatives
Widebody kit to increase tread and width for better cornering
lowered center of gravity(low seat rails, weight reduction on hood, trunk, roof, door, coilovers, etc)
add front canards and rear wing, maybe vortex generator
I'm sure you can get better skidpad test result with these mods.
@tofu1413
I chose the design of my mount because of how the forces are applied to the trunk lid. This will provide a solid anchoring point for the loads the wing will output. The rocket bunny mount works fine for a the rocket bunny wing or similar wing, since it provides very little downforce. I won't be doing the FXX K's wing style. It does not nearly produce as much downforce as my current design.
@BoostedBB6
Your statement is not true. Even on a completely stock vehicle, a comparison of lap times will reveal that the one equipped with this wing will be faster. The immediate increase in cornering and braking potential overshadows the lack of ideal suspension components and power output to overcome the drag. The only scenario I imagine this wing would perform worse is if comparison was made on Le Sarthe. A car with improved suspension would definitely improve the synergy my wing has to offer.
I have accommodated the use of this wing on street use. When it is set at 0° it produces no downforce at all, and only very little drag. Regarding the balance, with downforce enhancement on any car, the load distribution at speed is always changing, but one thing in common is it will always be more rearward bias. It is important to remember that driving a car like this requires different inputs to the car's control. There will still be a net downforce across the whole car, allowing you to take the same turns you are used to, easier, and even faster.
@Timpo
This design is the way it is because it nets the highest amount of downforce. Other considerations for this design are my manufacturer's and supplier's limitation. I have many more ideas for future designs. The longer endplates allows better flow dynamics on this wing. They won't be heavy at all. They will be made of carbon fiber foam core sandwich. Extremely light and high in strength. The design of my endplate allows the best suppression of vortex generation, therefore increasing downforce and reducing drag. The length allows more downforce overall.
Those professionals are running wings that meet racing series regulations. Many of them limits the dimension of the wing to a cross sectional area. They also only limit to a single airfoil element. Endplate lengths and width are also regulated. Wing width, length, and extension beyond certain dimension of the body are also regulated. Your statement regarding the downforce of my wing being too overwhelming is not true. The decrease in straight performance will be overshadowed by the much faster cornering and braking potential.
Anyways, rather than adding a giant wing at the back, which could potentially cause understeer, here are some alternatives
Widebody kit to increase tread and width for better cornering
lowered center of gravity(low seat rails, weight reduction on hood, trunk, roof, door, coilovers, etc)
add front canards and rear wing, maybe vortex generator
I'm sure you can get better skidpad test result with these mods.
Currently, the market is already saturated with products like those you've mentioned, and many of them do a great job at those already, the only thing I disagree on the list are those that affect aerodynamics. What I'm creating here is something that does not exist yet. It is the highest level performance mod one can make regarding to aerodynamics. However, in the list you've made, I feel suspension can be improved vastly—it is something I have a huge interest in investing into once I have the aerodynamics sector secured.
As a note, currently this is just the wing. But the full aero package will be completed too, including splitter/bumper, undertray, diffuser/bumper, sideskirt, and hood(for turbo application). Once that is all completed, I will create a comparison between a fully stock FRS to another with just my aero mods. The hard results will be eye opening for many.
Also, its true that this will cause the car to have more of an understeer feeling. But in the end, the result in lap times will still be faster, that is the goal. Driving style will need to changed to accommodate this. It is impossible to enter a car with downforce enhancement, and drive it the same as a neutral car.
Last edited by lolersk8ter; 02-14-2015 at 02:09 PM.
@tofu1413
I chose the design of my mount because of how the forces are applied to the trunk lid. This will provide a solid anchoring point for the loads the wing will output. The rocket bunny mount works fine for a the rocket bunny wing or similar wing, since it provides very little downforce. I won't be doing the FXX K's wing style. It does not nearly produce as much downforce as my current design.
@BoostedBB6
Your statement is not true. Even on a completely stock vehicle, a comparison of lap times will reveal that the one equipped with this wing will be faster. The immediate increase in cornering and braking potential overshadows the lack of ideal suspension components and power output to overcome the drag. The only scenario I imagine this wing would perform worse is if comparison was made on Le Sarthe. A car with improved suspension would definitely improve the synergy my wing has to offer. I have accommodated the use of this wing on street use. When it is set at 0° it produces no downforce at all, and only very little drag. Regarding the balance, with downforce enhancement on any car, the load distribution at speed is always changing, but one thing in common is it will always be more rearward bias. It is important to remember that driving a car like this requires different inputs to the car's control. There will still be a net downforce across the whole car, allowing you to take the same turns you are used to, easier, and even faster.
@Timpo
This design is the way it is because it nets the highest amount of downforce. Other considerations for this design are my manufacturer's and supplier's limitation. I have many more ideas for future designs. The longer endplates allows better flow dynamics on this wing. They won't be heavy at all. They will be made of carbon fiber foam core sandwich. Extremely light and high in strength. The design of my endplate allows the best suppression of vortex generation, therefore increasing downforce and reducing drag. The length allows more downforce overall. Those professionals are running wings that meet racing series regulations. Many of them limits the dimension of the wing to a cross sectional area. They also only limit to a single airfoil element. Endplate lengths and width are also regulated. Wing width, length, and extension beyond certain dimension of the body are also regulated. Your statement regarding the downforce of my wing being too overwhelming is not true. The decrease in straight performance will be overshadowed by the much faster cornering and braking potential.
How does it increase braking performance? By adding drag? something like 90+% of braking performance comes from front wheel, I don't know rear-biased setting is going to be good idea? Cornering performance or rear grip may be increased, but added understeer characteristics may be compensate for that. But I know you said you're going to offer it as a complete package so it may not be an issue.
I don't know if this is going to be street legal? Most province or state will not allow rear wing that is wider than car width or increase the rear overhang.
I understand that it may be too difficult for you to make it completely street legal, but I'm sure many of your customers would expect you to design something that doesn't catch immediate police attention. Because that wing looks like it's begging for VI.
As far as I know, most GT or FIA races do not regulate angle of attack itself, they do have regulations on planform, mounting height, width, shape of Zone F or Zone R, but you can mount in any angle you like. http://www.24h-lemans.com/wpphpFichi...ons-lm-gte.pdf
Again, I'm not an engineer and just an average joe, you know more stuff that I do so you might prove me wrong once the product is done and that wing may perform well but at this point, I'm not that convinced..
Equipping aero pieces to a stock car with NOTHING done to it will aid in nothing but slowing it down.
The down force is generated from the drag of the aero against the air passing over it. You take a bone stock FRS, equip it with a wing that produces down force (of which you need to be going at a decent speed to generate any usable down force) you will see nothing more than a reduction of speed and slower lap times.
You have just increased drag on the car without increasing the mechanical grip between the car and the road. If it had some stickier tires to utilise the additional down force and allow it to corner faster (Prius tires are crap.....and the FRS has then in stock trim).
So I say it again, equipping this wing to a bone stock car (FRS/BRZ) will do nothing but slow it down. The mechanical grip can be overcome in stock form, adding down force where the limits are already exceeded will result in nothing more than a cool looking car running around a track slower. Slap some sticky tires on and it becomes a different story.
Regardless if the car has the wing set a 0 degrees, it will degrade performance on a stock car. The added weight and wind resistance will reduce the cars performance and fuel mileage. The only people who will utilize something like this wing (other than for looks) are track people who have allowed for more mechanical grip than stock and want to increase there corner speeds.
How does it increase braking performance? By adding drag? something like 90+% of braking performance comes from front wheel, I don't know rear-biased setting is going to be good idea? Cornering performance or rear grip may be increased, but added understeer characteristics may be compensate for that. But I know you said you're going to offer it as a complete package so it may not be an issue.
I don't know if this is going to be street legal? Most province or state will not allow rear wing that is wider than car width or increase the rear overhang.
I understand that it may be too difficult for you to make it completely street legal, but I'm sure many of your customers would expect you to design something that doesn't catch immediate police attention. Because that wing looks like it's begging for VI.
As far as I know, most GT or FIA races do not regulate angle of attack itself, they do have regulations on planform, mounting height, width, shape of Zone F or Zone R, but you can mount in any angle you like. http://www.24h-lemans.com/wpphpFichi...ons-lm-gte.pdf
Again, I'm not an engineer and just an average joe, you know more stuff that I do so you might prove me wrong once the product is done and that wing may perform well but at this point, I'm not that convinced..
The braking force is potentially increased due to increased downward loads created by the wing in high speed corners (not a place where many do braking tho as it will effect the car in a negative way to be braking hard enough to utilized the down force in a corner).
Again, this is only applicable to a car on a race track with ideal set-up as the grip potential of stock tires is already exceeded with the car completely stock.
Currently, the market is already saturated with products like those you've mentioned, and many of them do a great job at those already, the only thing I disagree on the list are those that affect aerodynamics. What I'm creating here is something that does not exist yet. It is the highest level performance mod one can make regarding to aerodynamics. However, in the list you've made, I feel suspension can be improved vastly—it is something I have a huge interest in investing into once I have the aerodynamics sector secured.
As a note, currently this is just the wing. But the full aero package will be completed too, including splitter/bumper, undertray, diffuser/bumper, sideskirt, and hood(for turbo application). Once that is all completed, I will create a comparison between a fully stock FRS to another with just my aero mods. The hard results will be eye opening for many.
Also, its true that this will cause the car to have more of an understeer feeling. But in the end, the result in lap times will still be faster, that is the goal. Driving style will need to changed to accommodate this. It is impossible to enter a car with downforce enhancement, and drive it the same as a neutral car.
I don't know man, it's just that I read all the tuners articles all the time and nobody ever came up with an idea like you have.
Japanese tuners go to Suzuka and Tsukuba Circuit.
American tuners go to Willow Spring and Laguna Seca.
Those Japanese and American tuners are fighting hard to come up with the best possible laptime setting for their street tuned cars.
They develop their own suspension, engine components, wheels, aerodynamic devices, everything.
If your theory is that amazing, I don't know why nobody has come up with the idea until now.
Stock FRS is around 14lb/hp. Simply adding the additional weight of all that aero parts at around 200lbs brings it to 15lb/hp, then you are going to significantly change the dc of the car which will again reduce its lb/hp figure and this is simply talking about a static car. Once you have the aero loads on the car everything will increase exceps the mechanical power and grip of the car.
Simply adding aero will not make a car faster, other areas need to be taken into account. The stock suspension is not designed to be loaded in the ways additional aero will load them. The stock tires will not handle the load properly. As you said, it will change how the car drives, and in a case with full aero on a stock car it will not improve the car.
The addition of the aero, with proper suspension setup and sticky tires may yield faster times on a very technical course, but without adding power to overcome the increased weight, stain and cd the car will simply become slower.
No insult intended, but there are companies that do this for a living....this is all they do. There is a balance between it all, adding aero to a car will not make it faster. Its like saying adding big brakes will stop a car sooner. Without the supporting modifications (tires that will allow you to go beyond the stock tires grip) you will gain nothing from getting bigger brakes....in fact you will become slower as you have more weight to move around and slow down.
The braking force is potentially increased due to increased downward loads created by the wing in high speed corners (not a place where many do braking tho as it will effect the car in a negative way to be braking hard enough to utilized the down force in a corner).
Again, this is only applicable to a car on a race track with ideal set-up as the grip potential of stock tires is already exceeded with the car completely stock.
For added braking performance on FRS, I'd take TRD big brake kit and maybe Advan Neova or some high grip tires. Thank you very much.
Stock FRS is around 14lb/hp. Simply adding the additional weight of all that aero parts at around 200lbs brings it to 15lb/hp, then you are going to significantly change the dc of the car which will again reduce its lb/hp figure and this is simply talking about a static car. Once you have the aero loads on the car everything will increase exceps the mechanical power and grip of the car.
Simply adding aero will not make a car faster, other areas need to be taken into account. The stock suspension is not designed to be loaded in the ways additional aero will load them. The stock tires will not handle the load properly. As you said, it will change how the car drives, and in a case with full aero on a stock car it will not improve the car.
The addition of the aero, with proper suspension setup and sticky tires may yield faster times on a very technical course, but without adding power to overcome the increased weight, stain and cd the car will simply become slower.
No insult intended, but there are companies that do this for a living....this is all they do. There is a balance between it all, adding aero to a car will not make it faster. Its like saying adding big brakes will stop a car sooner. Without the supporting modifications (tires that will allow you to go beyond the stock tires grip) you will gain nothing from getting bigger brakes....in fact you will become slower as you have more weight to move around and slow down.
actually, if you engineer it right, sometimes you can gain significant top speed.
Shelby Daytona was 30mph faster than Shelby Cobra just because of aerodynamic efficiency.
For once I actually agree with Timpo. I have a basic, but limited knowledge of aerodynamics. But his points are correct. The drag created is huge. The amount of drag reduced, and the "lift", or thrust created by the end pieces are are not proportional. This effect may not be seen on the Lower Mainlands Race Track, as the speeds are lower, but I do believe it will hurt performance in the top end. But pretty cool to design something your interested in, for school. Keep it up!
I have a basic, but limited knowledge of aerodynamics. But his points are correct. The drag created is huge. The amount of drag reduced, and the "lift", or thrust created by the end pieces are are not proportional.
yeah I'm wondering what's the lift to drag ratio after installing that giant wing on the FRS/BRZ?
Does OP realize that FRS has little torque with poor towing capacity...it better not be getting 1000+lbs of drag
Most BONE STOCK street cars have more drag than downforce, as an engineer, he better be making more downforce than drag.
There's just one too many points laid out too fast in front of me right now to address. I foresee that I'd be writing one response after another, as I answer questions with points that can be questioned upon thereafter. All I can say is, some statements you guys are stating of how aerodynamics, tire dynamics, and braking dynamics work are not true. It is beyond the grasp of a forum post to lay down all the facts of how these dynamics work. My knowledge and understanding of how the many components in a vehicle work come 2 years worth of non-stop reading and study of many textbooks, scholar articles, and researches that the current engineers utilize to build racing cars. At a time before all this, I thought that a wing of this magnitude too would be impractical, but now, I disagree with my preconceived notion.
My wing will not be performing at a level where it overcomes the specs of the OEM car. Live test results of the wing will show positive, eye-opening results to everyone, I guarantee it.
Congrats for pursuing your dream! buuuuuuuut.......I have some questions.
Are you saying that you are creating a wing/spoiler specifically for a bone stock FRS/BRZ that will instantly improve lap times over a bone stock FRS/BRZ without a wing/spoiler under the same conditions?In terms of testing, was or will this be done on a bone stock FRS/BRZ or a modified one? A bone stock car is much different than the same car after it's been heavily modified so it's hard to paint them with the same brush. Besides, a wing like that on a bone stock car would look retarded as fuck. Usually aero parts are used in conjunction with one another so I'm thinking a wing like your design is better suited for a heavily modified/aero'd vehicle, not a stock one. What aspect of your design makes it superior to what is currently available? What's the gimmick basically? 'cause without something to differentiate you from the pack it'll be a tough sell. Not hating, just sayin'.
My $0.02.......I would be shocked if you showed me back to back comparisons on a bone stock FRS/BRZ at the same track, on the same day, with and without the wing and laps times improved while the wing was equipped. If I'm wrong, I'll buy you a Coke. :tipshat:
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