Electric and Hybrid Car Thread

[Hondaracer]

Also in terms of “jobs” didn’t Ford just abandon their plans for the EV plant in Ontario?

Obviously the govt. has no clue when it comes to competition = competitive pricing

See: Telecoms

[Traum]

Without a doubt, I feel conflicted on the issue too, and there are definitely a lot of layers and complexities to consider. My distilled 2-sentence conclusion is exactly what I wrote earlier, and unfortunately it doesn't cover the full extent of all the considerations that goes into coming to that conclusion.

Without writing a full dissertation, the impacts of climate change, large scale layoffs and the associated impact on economy, gov attitudes towards such impacts, disproportionate amounts of EV subsidies between the Chinese and Canadian gov, competition between state-sponsored industry vs private enterprises, etc., the decimation of domestic industrial / manufacturing capabilities, and the associated transfer of this industrial capacity to an untrustworthy trade partner / hostile state -- all these factors argue in favour of or against imposing tariffs on China-made EVs. Ultimately, I feel like imposing the tariff is the less undesirable course of action among a range of less-than-ideal options.

So criticism against the tariff policy is definitely warranted, but the issue is so much more than a binary black and white choice.

Originally Posted by mikemhg

Sure, but the problem is politicians want to say climate change is an existential threat to our existence.

If so, does protecting a segment of the market (American car manufacturers, and by extension Canadian) warrant the artificial raising of EV car prices potentially out of reach of many Canadians, and thus stagnating the overall adoption of EVs from ICE vehicles?

If a meteor was flying to Earth and we were all going to die in a year or two, would we be arguing about which country gets the contract and funding to destroy the damn thing?

It's these types of tariffs on affordable EVs is what makes these politician's doom and gloom scenarios about climate change and mandated EV adoption by 2035 seem so damn hallow.

[68style]

The thing I hate is so many people are against it just because it's Trudeau that did it.

I mean, I hate the fucking guy too but it's just asinine to think that way -- automatically be against something just because the guy you don't like purported it.

I mean, 6 months ago, Conservative leaders were all like "CHINA OWZ THE LIBS TURD WON'T STAND UP FOR CANADIANS"
Today the Conservative leaders are all like "PEOPLE WANT CHEAP EV WHY TURD DO?"

Make up your mind with your morals and litmus test your standards instead of just being a parrot for inflammatory banter.

[Hondaracer]

Bro.. the liberal govt. is the one banning ICE, it’s THEIR PLAN

Now you limit competition and drive up prices of the EV’s available through tariffs in an attempt to save face or whatever this is? Or in the veil of saving Canadian jobs which is obviously BS

Yea.. they get the blame, because all of this is their doing?

None of these traditional North American auto manufacturers who currently have a corner on the EV market are ever going to produce an affordable EV for the masses.

[68style]

It's not competition when your competitor is producing stuff for 10% of the cost... that's just takeover/dumping man.

There's 500,000 jobs in this country directly related to auto manufacturing.

You force BYD to build a factory here, plain and simple, that's what would have to happen. Or actually they will most likely have to build them in the USA and then it's fair competition plus job providing. It's not about short term "I can buy a EV for $10k" thinking.

[AstulzerRZD]

Originally Posted by mikemhg

It's these types of tariffs on affordable EVs is what makes these politician's doom and gloom scenarios about climate change and mandated EV adoption by 2035 seem so damn hallow.

Isn't 2035 mandatory hybrid/PHEV/EV?
There's no way it's mandatory EV

[Hondaracer]

Originally Posted by AstulzerRZD

Isn't 2035 mandatory hybrid/PHEV/EV?
There's no way it's mandatory EV

2035 is zero emission. So whatever that entails, Hydrogen etc.

[AstulzerRZD]

Originally Posted by Hondaracer

Also in terms of “jobs” didn’t Ford just abandon their plans for the EV plant in Ontario?

Obviously the govt. has no clue when it comes to competition = competitive pricing

See: Telecoms

It's cuz they were selling a ton of medium/heavy duty trucks (250/350 class).
These trucks are also excluded from 2035 ban on gas-only

[Hondaracer]

Originally Posted by 68style

It's not competition when your competitor is producing stuff for 10% of the cost... that's just takeover/dumping man.

There's 500,000 jobs in this country directly related to auto manufacturing.

You force BYD to build a factory here, plain and simple, that's what would have to happen. Or actually they will most likely have to build them in the USA and then it's fair competition plus job providing. It's not about short term "I can buy a EV for $10k" thinking.

Lol so it’s ok for virtually -everything- else in manufacturing except EV’s the only thing you’re literally being FORCED to adopt? Ok.

Same old lip service bullshit.

[JDMDreams]

^ you mean like how they can cap rent increase to 3% but not property tax, food price increases

[Hondaracer]

Originally Posted by AstulzerRZD

It's cuz they were selling a ton of medium/heavy duty trucks (250/350 class).
These trucks are also excluded from 2035 ban on gas-only

Ah yea.. that makes sense.. ffs

[AstulzerRZD]

Originally Posted by Hondaracer

None of these traditional North American auto manufacturers who currently have a corner on the EV market are ever going to produce an affordable EV for the masses.

I used to work in product planning for a major manufacturer.
There's no business case to develop affordable EVs for North America because used Model 3s and Bolts, with 250+ mile ranges are already 15-20k.

By the time the development cycle (4 years) is over, cost problem will solve itself while battery prices drop AND we're now competing with popular used EVs at 10-15k price point.

But what about Canada?

Our high prices are due to weak currency/local income.
Manufacturers send fewer cars to Canada because they can sell them for more in the USA.
Seriously, an 86/WRX is 40% more expensive at 30k USD compared to 30k CAD.

EVs are already more competitive in Canada due to higher gas prices ($7/gal vs. $5 in Cali, $3 in NY) and cheaper electricity (5-10c vs. 40c in NY, 60c in CA).

Lastly, in 1-2 years, supply issues will resolve, and used EVs will also become much cheaper in Canada.

[68style]

Originally Posted by Hondaracer

Lol so it’s ok for virtually -everything- else in manufacturing except EV’s the only thing you’re literally being FORCED to adopt? Ok.

Same old lip service bullshit.

It's not a perfect world man, I guarantee if they did nothing and 2 or 3 plants were closing in Ontario a couple years from now you'd be on here bitching about how the gov should have done something. Am I wrong?

Maybe you just like bitching about stuff lol we're all getting to that age

[AstulzerRZD]

Originally Posted by Hondaracer

Lol so it’s ok for virtually -everything- else in manufacturing except EV’s the only thing you’re literally being FORCED to adopt? Ok.

Same old lip service bullshit.

No one's forced to adopt EV, can just buy a PHEV and not gas it up.
Will still get like 3-4L/100km.

[Hondaracer]

Ah you mean all the people making $45 an hour to install seat belt buckles? That makes sense.

The ICE ban will likely change or get cancelled under the cons anyways

[Hondaracer]

Originally Posted by AstulzerRZD

No one's forced to adopt EV, can just buy a PHEV and not gas it up.
Will still get like 3-4L/100km.

PHEV banned in 2035.

[AstulzerRZD]

Originally Posted by Hondaracer

PHEV banned in 2035.

Where are you getting this source?

That doesn't seem to be true, fed gov defines ZEV as:

battery-electric
plug-in hybrid electric
fuel cell electric

https://www.canada.ca/en/environment...g-economy.html

https://tc.canada.ca/en/road-transpo...-vehicles-izev

https://www.reuters.com/sustainabili...imate%20change.

[68style]

It will likely change under ANY government... it's just a goal to strive toward.

Public opinion will always sway government. It's already moved once, it was 2030 at first.

Alsulzer is correct, government considers PHEV to be ZEV which is... a little bit weird if you ask me.

[AstulzerRZD]

Originally Posted by 68style

It will likely change under ANY government... it's just a goal to strive toward.

Public opinion will always sway government. It's already moved once, it was 2030 at first.

Alsulzer is correct, government considers PHEV to be ZEV which is... a little bit weird if you ask me.

The PHEV/Range Extender EV class is targeting 7 passenger / light truck where hybrids get bad fuel economy with geared transmissions
(i.e. Tacoma / F150 hybrids at 11L/100km combined)

RAM were first to market with a range extended pickup but even Toyota is doing researching 7 passenger segment with 100mi Range Extended EV
(don't ask me how I know).

It's also giving manufacturers an "out" to serve customers who live in super cold areas where EV range takes a huge hit, even with heat pump.

[Traum]

Originally Posted by Hondaracer

Now you limit competition and drive up prices of the EV’s available through tariffs in an attempt to save face or whatever this is? Or in the veil of saving Canadian jobs which is obviously BS

Except that the impact on the Canadian auto manufacturing sector is not BS though. We have Ford, GM, Toyota, Honda, and Stellantis building cars in Canada. And then beyond that, there is the full downstream industries and suppliers that support these manufacturers. Google pegs the auto manufacturing sector to account for $11.6B / 1.5% of Ontario's GDP. So if the sector gets decimated, a LOT of people are going to have a very difficult time, and no gov would want to deal with that if it can be avoided.

None of these traditional North American auto manufacturers who currently have a corner on the EV market are ever going to produce an affordable EV for the masses.

That may or may not be true. But with a looming deadline not that far away in the future -- 2035 for Canada and California, I think? -- it is up to the manufacturers to see how they can pivot, or risk going out of business.

For the time being, the affordable EV segment is kind of being served by the used EV market. Potentially, federal governments can mandate manufacturers to continue providing parts and service support of existing EVS for a longer duration -- I believe the current rules for mandatory parts support only goes up to 10 years.

[AstulzerRZD]

IMO the affordable EV thing comes from internet commenters who doesn't buy new cars or never taken a microecon class.

Automakers know North Americans want brand recognition, size, features, and good performance.
No one bought Scions, Fiestas, HR-Vs, etc and they won't buy a cheap EV either unless they're desperate and low information credit criminals (Nissan buyers? or "cash buyers").

Lastly, looking at Australian prices
BYDs are really priced more or less the same as the Koreans and Tesla while having worse charging/range/performance and SUV doesn't have AWD.
US crash regs way more difficult and gonna cost $$.

The "omg, the Dolphin starts at $10k USD in China" headlines are completely pointless because it's the golf cart spec.

[pastarocket]

Good news for Tesla drivers. North America's biggest service centre for Tesla is being built in Vancouver.

Beedie Group is partnering with Tesla to build this new facility in an industrial area.

https://driveteslacanada.ca/news/tes...-vancouver-bc/

Vancouver will soon be home to Tesla’s largest purpose-built Service Center not only in Canada, but also in North America. Tesla and British Columbia real estate developer Beedie Group have announced plans to build a 120,000 square foot Sales, Service, and Delivery Center in Vancouver’s Strathcona neighbourhood.

According to Beedie Group the new flagship location will be built at the vacant site at 950 Raymur Avenue. Beedie says they will begin construction in Q1 2024 and expect to have the Service Center completed two years later in the first quarter of 2026. Once complete it will be Tesla’s most expansive Service Center in Canada with the largest service capacity in Western Canada.

Tesla says operations at the new Vancouver facility will include servicing, vehicle preparation, delivery operations and a showroom.

[whitev70r]

I don't have a horse in the EV debate but here are some conflicting thoughts:
1. We (Canada) also subsidized EV's produced here in NA with incentives between $5000-9000. Probably also offered lots of incentives for car companies to build a plant here in terms of taxes, etc. Might not be as much as China but still ... both sides have subsidized their own production of EV's.
2. What does 100% tariff exactly mean? Does it mean that if a BYD was coming over at $50K, it is now $100K or just the tariff part (whatever that is when I buy something from the states and get dinged for customs/taxes) has been doubled or 100%?
3. This protectionism, while it is good and protect jobs in Canada and the NAFTA agreement, is what some don't like about Trump, US first.
4. Who is to say that allowing a competitive price for a NIO (esp different tech for battery swap) or BYD whatever that might be ... (not as high % of tariff as 100%) won't be good for competition and innovation? Make Tesla sweat a bit and get them to find ways to reduce cost.

I dunno ... lot of moving variables in this. But again, no skin off my nose, not as if I was planning to buy an EV in the next 5 yrs.

[JDMDreams]

We should tariff the buddy guy and illegal juans we've been importing and losing our jobs to

[AstulzerRZD]

So I looked into the Chinese EVs

1) they’re just as expensive as Western ones - BYD Seal costs more than Model 3 in Australia with worse charging, power, software

2) on the high end, Zeekr G9 costs as much as an Audi Q8 in the Netherlands

3) the best batteries charge about the same as Hyundai/Kia to 50%. They all average 230-250kw

4) these EVs aren’t build for North American crash standards which are much tougher than Euro or Asian NCAP (except for maybe Geely/Lynk Co). Would mean additional cost and weight

5) many use LFP batteries which have worse cold performance/range/charging

6) disregard any range ratings/KM they can charge in 15 minutes. The Chinese fuel efficiency evaluation uses very low speeds … and we know aero to be the main thing

7) the self driving doesn’t look much better than GM’s hands free level 2 super cruise, and Mercedes’s Level 3 which lets you take your eyes off the road to watch a YouTube video

If I can lease a MB EQS for $500/mo, watch a YouTube video with Drive Pilot Level 3, why do I need a Chinese EV?

Mercedes even takes on liability if Drive Pilot is active and you crash.

https://leasehackr.com/calculator?ma...lease_das=2804